Everything that doesn't work with diplomacy right now

Kongo can be a beast in this game in science and culture. Consistently strong performances out of the Kongo AI.
In this game kongo is worse than usual.. they have Torres del Paine... so looking t taking that off them in the next 50 turns.
They are consistently good because they grow a lot, its sad but true. The one thing the AI can do well is grow.
 
Can't wait until more people get friendly with the AI so we can see the "they keep asking to be friends" complaints pop up.

Oh, it's pretty bad. It seems bugged in that the same AI will ask every couple of turns.

In my last game (Brazil, Emperor, Domination/Religion/Culture), I was using my Liberation Chain strategy such that Kongo, Japan, Norway, Aztecs, Greece, Spain and Germany were all constantly asking to be my friends every few turns. And Russia was willing to even though I hadn't yet taken their capital.

Uh and this was on Marathon setting, so every few turns is REALLY painful....
 
I largely disagree with the OP. I don't think most of these are issues.

On being attacked while Friendly: I feel like this is the developers' attempts to make the AI more opportunistic and more like human players. In Civ V you had a lot of complaints about AI diplomacy where people thought the AI's were being too unpredictable when they were actually being more like human players.

In Civ VI, the game is heavily oriented towards war in the early game. As a result, I tend to attack whoever spawns closest to me, regardless of what civ they are and whether or not I like them. It seems like the AI is doing the same thing.

Also, the developers made it clear that they were trying to simulate different eras, especially emphasizing that Ancient/Classical warfare was a lot more common. I think they did a good job at that. In Civ VI, you do A LOT of early warfare, and get declared on a lot early on. But as you progress through the eras, war becomes less common.

So being declared on while being Friendly in the Ancient/Classical era, is A LOT different than being declared on while being Friendly in the Modern/Atomic era. So I think you are conflating two separate issues.

You also did major warmongering by taking so many Chinese cities. There are actually plenty of ways around warmongering or to keep it under control, so it doesn't look like you really understand the system.

In Civ V, there was also argument over whether civs should get angry at you if you conquer a civ they haven't met yet. However, with the rumor/diplomatic visibility system, it makes more sense that they would hear about that and be displeased, even if you don't know any of those civs. If, for example, we met an alien civilization and we learn that it previously conquered 100 other alien civilizations, none of which we knew, I think that would definitely be a cause for alarm and we would consider them warmongers.

You also point out how England is angry at you for warmongering even though it has denounced China. That is fine and consistent. In a situation with multiple poles, you *don't* want one of your enemies completely defeating and absorbing another. That would be too much of a power gain. So during the Cold War, while the U.S. might want Russia and China to be fighting each other, they *don't* want one to completely win and absorb the other - that would be a major threat.

You seem to reference Civ IV a lot. I liked Civ IV, but it had plenty of issues as well. One annoying thing was how each civ had another civ they hated the most, and if you traded with that one civ, you'd get a diplomatic penalty. But it was hard keeping track of which civ they hated the most at the current moment. And while I liked the attempt at Permanent Alliances, it got messy when diplomatic penalties were applied (since the other AI's might hate your new alliance partner).

I think the current relationship system works just fine. I don't agree with your comments that "it isn't working" or with your need for real-time information and instant gratification. The modifiers simply show a snapshot of what is affecting things but it builds up over time so the Relationship tracks things over time.

Mathematically, it's like the relationship is the integral over time, while the modifiers are the derivative which show the current direction and magnitude of change.

If anything that is more realistic since relationships need to be built up over time, rather than doing a complete 180 because of something that just happened. In Civ VI, I feel like I have to work more towards building a relationship than in Civ V. (Though there aren't as many clear benefits at the moment).

If you look at actual geopolitics (and human relationships), centuries of enmity and conflict aren't so easily overcome.

In your case, this all goes back to your MAJOR warmongering which took place over centuries. That was negatively impacting your relationship over time. Think about the -100 warmonger penalty building up over 100 turns. That is a lot.

You claim that people don't care about what happened centuries or a thousand years ago. I disagree.

The U.S. and Australia still get flak about their warmongering against native tribes and that was centuries ago.

There are some in Mexico who still want the territory that the U.S. took 150 years ago.

The U.K. still gets accused of its imperialistic past which was centuries ago.

Argentina still wants the Falkland Islands from the U.K., even though this issue is centuries old (and it was unclaimed at the time).

Germany and Japan still get reminded of their WW2 warmongering which was 70 years ago.

Israel took (or reclaimed) territory 60-70 years ago. You think the Muslim world is going to let that go any time soon? What is more, a lot of countries who have never had any issue with Israel, nonetheless have denounced Israel because of their economic/diplomatic ties with Muslim countries. Sort of like how Gandhi/India denounced you because they are friends with China and you have Chinese cities.

As a passionate Byzantinist, I still have grudges against Venice and Turkey over the Fourth Crusade (800 years ago) and over Turkish-occupied Anatolia and the takeover of glorious Constantinople (600 years ago).

There are lots of nationalistic irredentist groups who want to reform Greater X, consisting of past territories that the people used to control. This is the perfect example of those who still care about things that happened centuries (or millennia) ago.

In Islam, there is the concept of Dar al-Islam. On the extreme side, some consider any territory that used to be Islamic to fall under this category, including Spain (when it was Al-Andalus 500+ years ago).


You make some good points in this post but most of your real world examples don't actually affect diplomatic or trade relationships. Some do yes, as in Israel but that's more a religious issue. Most other examples are criticisms by outside agency which doesn't wholly affect diplomatic or trade relations. Yes Germany and Japan still get reminded of warmongering, but that has no affect on our relations with those countries. Same with the UK. In the modern era we're more capable of separating what happened in past generations from what is going to happen currently and that's not well represented in the game. In reality, as new leadership emerges from previous regimes we give them the benefit of the doubt until they prove otherwise. So in essence the game throws a lot of the negative consequences for past actions against us, but very few ways to redemption in a reasonable amount of time. There's been several games that I've warred early with a Civ that lasted into other era's that my warmongering penalties lasted for seven hundred years after I had made peace with zero post war aggression.
 
700 years! My you have been a naughty boy... To be fair you can crank up thousands of years.... It is a mechanic and this is primarily a strategy game where they are discouraging steamrolling. We can use some comparison with real life but not to the letter. If you look at the warmongering guide, there is a nice exploit to stop ypu being such a bad boy.
 
But it does. Sometimes.

Not at a fundamental level. Yes, you can get a slight boost to your gold income or a random luxury here or there, but when you boil it down to the basic question "Can you win the game without engaging in diplomacy?", I think that in almost all situations the answer is yes - perhaps the only exception being cases where you're hemmed in and need open borders with a civ you don't want to go to war with.

Still true in 6.

It's true that it affects trade terms, but as above that's relatively trivial. It appears to have no effect at all on what other civs think of you - Civ V's multipartite diplomacy is completely gone. to the extent that it's no longer easy to get an idea at a glance what each civ's relations are with each other's, other than going through each civ's screen and checking their diplomatic relations.

Still true...sometimes.

Extremely rarely, and unless a given city is important to your science output (which can be significantly depressed by civil order problems) unhappiness short of rebellion doesn't seem to do anything very meaningful.

Haven't been backstabbed yet and while its somewhat predictable when war will come its not nearly as predictable (yet) as in 5. This is good.

It's not good if it bears little relation to your diplomatic efforts - diplomacy should be rewarded by good behaviour from the AI, and bad diplomacy punished. Civ V didn't always have a good correlation between positive diplomacy and peace, but it had a very strong correlation between negative diplomacy and war. And the reasons for war with friendly civs were rarely as opaque as it could seem - usually it amounted to that civ liking both you and one of your rivals but liking the rival more, or sensing weak military strength if they had a high rating for backstabbing or expansion.

The latter is better for the game than it sounds since it provides an axis on which different civs can vary strongly and express different personalities - you don't want every civ to respond exactly the same way to modifiers, which is largely the case in Civ VI and was for the most part the case in Civ prior to Civ V (Civ IV was closer to Civ V than earlier iterations in this regard, but apparently had fewer axes on which civs' behaviour varied noticeably).

I have found the AI to be much quicker to offer favorable deals.

It's generally quicker to offer favourable deals than Civ V, which is an advantage in some ways - Civ V's could be so unforgiving to the player when the civ wasn't friendly that trade with civs other than friends was often pointless, and its atrocious decision-making where peace treaties were concerned (no peace at any cost unless you set a foot inside the range of one of their major cities' walls, whereupon they'll bend over backwards to give you everything they have).

But Civ VI has pushed too far in the other direction - if you can trade with Civ VI AI at all (i.e. are at least neutral) you can get a good enough deal that being friendlier isn't meaningful. A default first offer from a neutral civ is GPT plus open borders for just your open borders - and unlike BNW there isn't even any particular advantage from having open borders other than passing through their territory, and the AI rarely makes use of them to explore.
 
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I definitely think there SHOULD be more benefits to Friendships and Alliances, but there currently are some:

1. Both prevent the other party from declaring war. Completely. In Civ V, there was still the chance of a backstab, even from a friend. In Civ VI, you know that your friend/ally simply CANNOT declare war on you. That definitely provides some security.

That would be more relevant if warfare was something to worry about unduly. The Civ V AI wasn't good militarily, though was better than Civ VI's and than its reptutation would suggest, but more importantly Civ V AIs were much better at managing military production - they could overwhelm you with numbers in a way Civ VI never will, and didn't get set back heavily in other areas by focusing on military production (which seems to be the case in Civ VI).

2. Research Agreements suck right now because research and culture speeds are way too fast.

More than that, they unlock so late that the player should be ahead in science and all you really gain from it is a few points towards a lower-tier tech you skipped that will benefit the AI more than you.

But there is a Eureka (for Chemistry) that is dependent on completing a Research Agreement.

The eureka for chemistry seems to be among the ones that's most often available to steal, and there's at least one Great Scientist that will specifically provide that eureka rather than just as one of the random era boosts.

3. Alliances come with built-in Open Borders. In some games, the AI's actually want several luxuries and a good amount of GP for Open Borders. If you are willing to enter in an Alliance (and many AI's are quite willing to enter into it), you can get Open Borders automatically.

Since neutral AIs like paying me for open borders, why would I care about that?

4. Since duplicate luxuries are not useful to you, friendly relations (which includes Friends and Allies but also others) definitely open up trading opportunities.

It's the 'also others' which is the issue - if you can trade on good terms with neutral civs, why cultivate allies?
 
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Since neutral AIs like paying me for open borders, why would I care about that?

Yes, they will pay you to get Open Borders so they can enter your territory. Doing so also gives you a small diplomatic bonus with them.

But there are many benefits to getting Open Borders from them. And sometimes, AI's will want quite a bit for Open Borders from them.

- You get +25% to Tourism if you get Open Borders *from them*. This is crucial in Cultural Victory games.
- You can move your units through their lands. This is often crucial in crowded maps where you are always blocked off. Sometimes you won't be able to war at all against certain AI's unless you can pass through the lands of a third AI.

And as previously mentioned, AI's will sometimes give you stuff (gold, Great Works) in exchange for an Alliance with you. That is definitely a plus.
 
Yes, they will pay you to get Open Borders so they can enter your territory. Doing so also gives you a small diplomatic bonus with them.

A diplomatic bonus that isn't relevant while there are no significant rewards for being friendlier than neutral with them.

- You get +25% to Tourism if you get Open Borders *from them*. This is crucial in Cultural Victory games.

And worthless otherwise. This ties into a core flaw with tourism in Civ VI - it's just a score counter, with no actual game relevance beyond being a victory condition. In BNW the boost was relevant regardless of your win condition (though obviously best for culture victory) because influence levels boosted trade income and, where relevant, religion spread.

- You can move your units through their lands. This is often crucial in crowded maps where you are always blocked off. Sometimes you won't be able to war at all against certain AI's unless you can pass through the lands of a third AI.

That's two benefits, not many, and benefits that disproportionately favour the player. Yet the AI is the one willing to make a deal for your open borders in exchange for theirs + gold per turn.

And as previously mentioned, AI's will sometimes give you stuff (gold, Great Works) in exchange for an Alliance with you. That is definitely a plus.

A plus, but a minor one. Great Works, being linked to the tourism system, are of little relevance aside from cultural victories - I'll fight for relics (and literally did in one war, refusing to make peace until the AI agreed to give me the Ark of the Covenant) but not random works. Gold is an incidental resource in Civ VI with little intrinsic value - the gold vs. faith cost of GPs is so unfavourable (and faith has so few other uses outside a dedicated religion game) that you aren't spending it on GPs, and maintenance costs for cities and buildings don't exist. You don't need enough units for their maintenance costs to dent the budget.

It's never bad to have more, but through free gold from city-states, trade routes set for other resources, incidental adjacency bonuses for commercial districts and harbors, markets and banks, and little to spend it on, it's not something you ever get great value trading for.
 
I have had an experience where my Declared Friend Trajan declared a joint war with Catherine (of France) against me because my nation was "too small." Yes, I do agree that my nation was smaller than his by 4 cities, however, the thing that prods me in the back the most is the fact that Trajan was at war with Catherine 6 turns ago (I know it's good to make amends, but it doesn't have to be that quick and that serious).

Now yes, the A.I. diplomacy could use some improvement, but, it's still a new game and has room to grow and expand. Things can happen, and it's funny (and sometimes frustrating) to watch them in game, but the game is still fun no matter the diplomacy issues. I honestly think that Civ 6 is better with unpredictable A.I: It helps you prepare for anything, and it shows you how well you and your empire can respond to sudden changes.

(P.S: I did survive that joint war.)
 
Now yes, the A.I. diplomacy could use some improvement, but, it's still a new game and has room to grow and expand. Things can happen
So diplomatic victory etc. with the 1st expansion ...
 
Diplomatic victory will probably show up whenever we get the united nations. Maybe it can be tied to suzerain status and alliances with different civilizations
 
Yes, I've been able to obtain at least one ally regardless of my chosen victory condition once I figured out how diplomacy modifiers work. I think early exploration to find different civilizations and at least one or two potential friends is important, since it's unlikely you'll have access to every type of resource and trading/gifting copies is a good idea that pays off in the long run. The trade deals with allies are much better as well, I've been in situations where my chosen victory condition was tourism and allies who weren't going for the same victory would trade great works and relics for luxuries and some gold. And there are some strong late game policies that can super charge your cities when you create trade routes among allied civilizations.

The most alliances that I've had in a game is 5/8 as Germany, with the possibility for 6 if I actually cared about allying with Poland as well. This was a religious victory, where alliances were formed to ensure that civilizations wouldn't have an issue with my actions to spread religion and wipe out their own. Also, it helped during war-time when I would declare vs Scythia (constant enemy) and take a negligible hit to diplomatic relations. I even ignored America's second agenda (Environmentalist) completely and we were friends until the game ended.

I think the addition of random, hidden agenda does a lot to keep the relationships with different leaders interesting. Civ V leaders are pretty static; no matter what civilization you play as, the relationships among opposing civilizations doesn't seem to vary from game to game. Also, the second agenda provides a lot of opportunities to form friendships, or at least neutral relations, with civilizations whose primary agenda may not mesh with your own plans.

I agree with this and with the direction Civ 6 took here. I think they can push this even further, by making warmonger-management more dynamic and situation-specific (i.e., reduced penalties with civs who have a common enemy, etc.). I think that alliances/friendships should automatically increase the yields of foreign trade routes and/or allow foreign trade routes to provide production as well. I don't like the heavily reliance on domestic trade routes b/c it means I don't care if I lose the ability to trade w/certain people.
 
I agree with this and with the direction Civ 6 took here. I think they can push this even further, by making warmonger-management more dynamic and situation-specific (i.e., reduced penalties with civs who have a common enemy, etc.). I think that alliances/friendships should automatically increase the yields of foreign trade routes and/or allow foreign trade routes to provide production as well. I don't like the heavily reliance on domestic trade routes b/c it means I don't care if I lose the ability to trade w/certain people.

Yeah, domestic trade is still way too strong. Every now and then, I'll have a few external routes to get the cash, but I keep running the math and internal routes still win way too often. It would be really cool if declared friends/allies had something where when sending a trade route to them, it would give an extra bonus to both sides. Then you could see a case where being allies was hugely beneficial to both sides.
 
Yeah, domestic trade is still way too strong. Every now and then, I'll have a few external routes to get the cash, but I keep running the math and internal routes still win way too often. It would be really cool if declared friends/allies had something where when sending a trade route to them, it would give an extra bonus to both sides. Then you could see a case where being allies was hugely beneficial to both sides.

There's a policy unlocked at democracy that does this. Maybe if many of the early game trade policies applied to international trade routes only, there would be a better balance there.
 
Add this to the list.
I'm Kongo. I adore my neighbors religion. I adore it so much that I thought I'd be nice and help him convert his cities. Maybe even improve our relations.

Next thing I know I get a very angry call from Norway demanding that I stop trying to convert his cities.
-9 relationship penalty.

For converting a civ to his own religion.

Nice.
 
I so agree with OP. I always try to play peaceful and defensive. But some countries just attack and attack, no matter how many times you hold them off and get peace. Your forced to take their cities to stop them, which starts warmonger and denouncement dominoes.

It's even worse when your forced to take tiny little cities they spammed everywhere next to your own cities. I don't need them; I don't want them; they take up hexes and amenities I need for all my other cities, but if you raze them (and they really, really need to be razed sometimes the way the AI places them), your even more screwdrivered.

At this time, I have just given up and raze everything but prime cities I take, because they are all probably going to hate me in the end anyway. So I minus well remove the bullies and delete the apcray cities in the process.
 
Your forced to take their cities to stop them
Would you consider it being acceptable, just to remove units of the attacking civ until begging for peace and receive cities _you_ want without using force? I.e. NOT conquering (&pillaging) these cities.
your forced to take tiny little cities they spammed everywhere next to your own cities. I don't need them; I don't want them
What about pillaging everything (what you are not going to keep) @ war, conquer city & strip all / good tiles by assigning them to other own cities and then give 'tiny little cities' back in peace treaty? I.e. NOT keeping those cities (only their best pieces :D).
 
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What really got me in a recent game is that I had two civs that had made declarations of friendship to me, and both had the green smiley faces next to them. That's good right? One declared war, and before I'd done anything, a few turns later the other friendly one did the same thing. That just makes no sense to me.
 
One more:
I'm Teddy and share the continent with Trajan and Pericles. In the ancient and classical times I might have been flippant and have taken both their capitals plus one more city from the Romans on account of the Manifest Destiny or something like that, but since then no such transgressions. Now it is the turn ~280, on standard Deity. Trajan finally has got himself out of the "I've made 'denouncing America' my religion" loop, but Pericles is still practicing it... well, religiously. Trajan then DOWs Pericles. I think, well, it's been a few very quiet millennia, I'll join in and use that Formal War CB on Pericles. It is his own fault, after all, plus it is my continent, so it must be in line with my agenda or similar :) Next turn the rest of the world denounces me and at the end of this parade comes the denouncing Trajan - yes, I'm the lowest scum of the scummiest warmongers, same to you. Yet one more turn later he comes to me again and... he's all smiles and hugs and kisses about how magnificent and large my lands are... At least Firaxis could've made Nero or Caligula the leader of Rome... like that, it would've been easier to take it.
 
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