Expanded my Way into War with my Friend

[xeroyne]

I'm playing a huge pangea map as the Inca. I know the Maya are suggested for this, but I wanted the free techs from the scouts.

My 10 AD I had nearly 40% of the territory, but not one single military unit. I was careful to offer a free tech to the other nations every ten turns or so and had a ROP agreement with India, a neighbor who was surrounded by my territory, and who had lost 2 cities to my culture (culture that came only from Temple of Artemis).

Then they suddenly declared war on me and took 8 of my cities! 4 turns later Egypt declared war and took another 2.

Is there any sure-fire way to keep these AI (AI that have a low agression level, like India even) from declaring war on me when I have no military?

The point of this game was to have 66% simply by making my entire civilization into a settler factory until 10AD, then slowly build my military, so that by the time I reached the industrial age, I could easily dominate.

 

[Nad]

There is no way to guarantee not getting into war.

All you can do is as you tried, keep them sweet with alliances and gifts.

As you become bigger and bigger (more powerful) you are ever more likely to attract an AI's attention.

The key to civ is balance. It's no good building tons of cities but nomilitary, because as you experienced, an AI can knock them off at a whim . Far better to keep expansion/military more apace, so you have a chance of defending what you have.

 

[narmox]

heck in my last game (as poland, using Rising Sun on a random map), the sumerians, my southern neighbours, signed an MPP _and_ RoP with me, only to sneak attack 2 seconds later! There's just no way to keep the AI away from warring with you...

 

[dresdor]

Well, in earlier version of Civ 3 vanilla, you could conceivably hold off the entirity of the world with an "army" of workers. The Enemy military advisor would think you had a huge army compared to their Civs, and wouldn't thin of attacking you unprovoked...or at least would think hard before doing it. However, later patches brought a balancing effect in, and now the Military Advisor takes into consideration the army's capabilities in war.

So, no, there's no way to ensure you won't be attacked. Although, trading for gold per turn (where you give them GPT) is a good way to help prevent a war. The enemy Civs are less likely to attack you while you're giving them money, and they can be appeased in the beginning with 1 and 2 gpt bribes.

Also, your cities will begin to grow slowly, and it will be some time before they are pop 3. You can significantly improve your strategy if you build one defensive unit in that time, and then allow the settlers to be cranked out.

 

[dresdor]

heck in my last game (as poland, using Rising Sun on a random map), the sumerians, my southern neighbours, signed an MPP _and_ RoP with me, only to sneak attack 2 seconds later! There's just no way to keep the AI away from warring with you...

The Zulu did this to me in one game...I helped them out because they were at war with the Egyptians on the other side of my Civ, so rather than have the war last 20 turns while they went around, I let them go through my territory...while they were there they decided to take three of my workers...so I killed their entire army of 20+ units with my calvary and then took seven of their cities while taking 3 of the Egyptians...

So now I kill off the Zulu every time I play them...same thing with the CHinese, but that is another story all-together.

 

[xeroyne]

Also, your cities will begin to grow slowly, and it will be some time before they are pop 3. You can significantly improve your strategy if you build one defensive unit in that time, and then allow the settlers to be cranked out.

Ah, but I'm agricultural, so I grow fast. Generally I've been doingthis when I found a city: Worker->Settler->Settler->Settler...etc. I have the governor concentrating on food production in all cities instead of shields, so it works.

Oh well. I'll get those cities back eventually. I'm still 3 times the size of the 2nd largest nation.

 

[axxessdenied]

What difficulty are you playing on?

 

[t3h_m013]

if you trade luxuries with other civs they are much les likely to declare war iirc... as you so big just give them some luxs

 

[Rammstein]

Well, in earlier version of Civ 3 vanilla, you could conceivably hold off the entirity of the world with an "army" of workers. The Enemy military advisor would think you had a huge army compared to their Civs, and wouldn't thin of attacking you unprovoked...or at least would think hard before doing it. However, later patches brought a balancing effect in, and now the Military Advisor takes into consideration the army's capabilities in war.

Ok, so now it DOES check the capabilities of the army - but does it really. If I keep an enormous stack of longbowmen around for the entire game, will the AI really take into account the obsolescense of these units or not?

 

[bed_head7]

Sometimes, a civilization is just going to declare war, no matter what. I was playing as the Celts, on Monarch, slowly coming to dominate because for some reason I was playing on archipelago, or maybe continents with tons of water, which had slowed down my Gallic Swordsmen. Anyway, I noticed France, the second largest, sending a few galleys towards a recent acquisition, and thought they might smell my weakness in the region. I immediately sign an RoP, give them 20 gpt for their 390 gold, as well as another gpt deal for Feudalism, I think, and a gift of 10 gpt. I had money, and I would rather not lose ground to a France that my military advisor said was stronger. Well, I still get French Ancient Cavalry and Pikemen landing in Celtic territory, so I declare war on a weak neighbor I was planning to take out in a few turns anyway, and enlist the French as allies for an additional 5 or 10 gpt. Next turn, France declares war, taking out my lone pikeman, and then defeating a number of unfortified gallic swordsmen who were just visiting. This really frustrated me, so I saved, and went back to my last save to see what it would have taken to keep France from declaring war. Apparently nothing. Despite a gracious attitude and all the gpt I could afford, France declared war again. And this is from the least aggressive country, and I had set less aggressive in the pre-game settings.

 

[bed_head7]

Ok, so now it DOES check the capabilities of the army - but does it really. If I keep an enormous stack of longbowmen around for the entire game, will the AI really take into account the obsolescense of these units or not?

There is an article about the military advisor in the war academy.

 

[dresdor]

Ok, so now it DOES check the capabilities of the army - but does it really. If I keep an enormous stack of longbowmen around for the entire game, will the AI really take into account the obsolescense of these units or not?

I'm not sure, but I think it works on a system of weights. These are probably just based on attack and defense stats and hitpoints rather than obsoleteness...if firepower were still involved it would be different, but otherwise it doesn't really matter.

So a stack of 6 infantry is worth more than a stack of 6 calvary, but a stack of 6 elite calvary is probably worth more than a stack of 6 conscript infantry.

Since the longbowmen have an attack of 4, and can probably still do damage to modern units (not a lot, but still) you might be able to hold off the entire world with the threat of longbowmen. It all depends on how much the attack value of units effects their weight. If its a huge factor, then you'd have to have thousands of bowmen to counterbalance their relatively low attack...if its a small factor, then having just a few more bowmen than they have units should be enough.

But I'm not sure of the exact figures.

 

[nullspace]

I think the formula is: Hitpoints * (3*attack power + 2*defense power) + bombard. That's the strength of one unit, so do that for every unit in your army, and add it all up.

If you have no military at all, the that is just asking to be attacked. The AI knows that it is much more powerful than you, and that is one of its triggers to go to war. Also, it seems like if the AI has a unit near a city of yours that has no military units in it, the AI sees it as an invitation to come right in.

 

[dgfred]

There is no way to guarantee not getting into war.

All you can do is as you tried, keep them sweet with alliances and gifts.

As you become bigger and bigger (more powerful) you are ever more likely to attract an AI's attention.

The key to civ is balance. It's no good building tons of cities but nomilitary, because as you experienced, an AI can knock them off at a whim . Far better to keep expansion/military more apace, so you have a chance of defending what you have.

The AI will attack if you are too weak- The AI will attack if you are powerful-
The AI will attack for NO reason-The AI will attack for some reason- Prepare
to them for it when it happens because it WILL happen.

 

[dresdor]

AI Stupidity = Reason to keep nukes

 

[Arathorn]

The AI attacks a large nation with no military -- the situation we all dream about -- and people complain of the AI's stupidity??? Hmmm...if the large nation goes unchecked, it will easily dominate, but I have all these units and they have all this land and no units.... Man, the AI actually does something intelligent (probably by pure chance, but still...) and people complain about it being stupid.

I *think* there is some calculation about how easy it will be to take the land and how much land it can take. Being huge with no protection is a very bad idea -- why accept milk from you, even for free, when I can just take the cow?

Sigh....

Arathorn

 

[xeroyne]

However, I had over 100 cities. Only 8 were taken before I was able to declare peace. Pretty fair loss, considering how many fewer cities I'd have had I slowed expansion to build a military.

Now, 20 turns after I declared peace, most of my cities are at pop 12, with a few over 12 now that I have hospitals. Despite my losses earlier, I now have 64% of the world population without fighting a single unit.

 

[nameless53]

You guys are lucky...

the only "AI agression" war was with the aztecs and celtics when i refused what they wanted...
i never get a "sneak attack" or right of passage abuse...

you guys are so lucky....

another thing.. DO YOU EVER SEE COMPUTER NATIONS DECLARING WAR ON ANOTHER COMPUTER NATION?

 

[Gnarfflinger]

I have seen computer nations making war on each other, but not that often. You'd need an embassy with one of those powers to hear about it...

 

[seanos08]

What is the point of expanding with NO military. Surely you have to deal with barbs at least. The 25 gp for knocking out their villages is the only thing keeping my ancient economy going. You might as well build troops while a city is growing big enough to pop out a settler.

Build a 50/50 mix of offensive and def units.

I play regent and usually get sneak attacked at some point. This seems to be regardless of power or attitude.

The AI will fight each other about as often as you (you need embassies to find out.)