expansion - how fast?

[LanguishViking]

If you are building expands make sure you watch the mil rating of any neighbor, having a large military in being will prevent those surprise attacks early on.

 

[MyOtherName]

Builders don't contribute enough to the early economy for their cost

Maybe, maybe not -- on some starts a builder is worth +3 cog boost to production. And it costs much less, the benefit comes sooner, and gives you one or more eurekas. So it can very well be preferable to build before -- or even instead of -- the settler.

 

[Hyronymus]

I always make sure I have at least 3 archers. In the early stages the enemy only throws Warriors and a lost Spearman at you, nothing a group of archers can't clean up .

 

[Nefelia]

I used to try to fit in a settler or two early on, but that just doesn't work well in Emperor+ difficulty. Early cogs are better invested in the military units that you will need, and grab the cities and settlers that the AI sends to forward settle on you. If you don't nab those cities fast, the AI will start building walls and horsemen and your momentum will come to a crashing halt.

Aside from units, I do try to get an early religion. Played China last game, and two builders were enough for the 3-improvements Eureka and Stonehenge.

I always make sure I have at least 3 archers. In the early stages the enemy only throws Warriors and a lost Spearman at you, nothing a group of archers can't clean up .

Warrior rush with Scythia was a thing of beauty. The self-heal upon enemy death is ridiculously powerful.

 

[blueinf]

For me it's more like Slinger, Slinger, Slinger, Archer, Archer, Warrior, Builder, Archer, Archer, Settler, then start working on districts and/or highly useful buildings. On Emperor and above, you want to archer rush your neighbor, which tends to provide you with 2-3 cities (either through conquest or through captured settlers).

That said, settlers are significantly more efficient than districts and buildings at the start of the game. Due to the way district cost escalates and the larger bonuses provided, you probably want to emphasize industrial, harbor and commercial districts and keep away from campuses and theatres for the most part (unless playing for culture victory). Great persons are pretty weak and the AI always generates a crapton of points.

I do something similar myself, the AI is unable to counter mass archers ...

 

[SeismoGraf]

Maybe, maybe not -- on some starts a builder is worth +3 cog boost to production. And it costs much less, the benefit comes sooner, and gives you one or more eurekas. So it can very well be preferable to build before -- or even instead of -- the settler.

Let's say you build X units and then decide, that you want to invest in economy. Now, if you can chose between Builder-->Settler or Settler-->Builder, both options should give you about the same total production output (assuming an average city spot versus 3x mines/quarries/pastures). Builder first gives faster returns and can trigger boosts, but you have to defend the improvements against (barb) pillaging. Settler first grabs land and gives a second build queue, but temporarily lowers production. Also the enemy AI has two potential targets instead of one. Considering a city has 200 health, but barely more strength than a scout, this can be a problem.

The thing is that sometimes you can't afford to build both worker AND settler (on deity). If you get attacked by 1 or 2 AIs with just one improved city your second city can be delayed by 10, 15, 20 turns or more. On the other hand, if you repel the aggression with 2 unimproved cities you are in great shape! Instead of the 3 cute improvements in the capital you now have a superb pop 2 or 3 city running.

If there is a good city spot nearby (say two 2h/2f tiles in inner radius, like wooded hills & fresh water ofc), then Slinger/Warrior-->Settler looks quite strong. Even if it means losing the inspiration on Craftsmanship (Early Empire boost will be guaranteed though). Four or five tiles away is optimal for defence. Maybe you don't even lose eurekas, since you probably have to rush Archery.

Low production starts can be very challenging. Blitz expanding (Slinger/Warrior-->Settler) to a nearby high prod location can be the solution.

 

[TurboJ]

On higher difficulties it's imperative to grab all the land you need quickly, or the AI will surely grab it instead.

For me it's often just military units and settlers I spam the early turns (and one builder to boost production of these. Fighting barbs and land grabbing; then start actually developing the cities. Semi-wide is strongest anyway so you need to make sure you CAN go semi wide before it's too late. This seems to work for me on immortal & deity.

 

[A+ombomb]

If high forest count......

Builder -> builder -> builder -> settler -> builder-> settler -> military as needed.

Especially on faster game speeds, ignoring improvements and just chopping will boost your start significantly.

 

[Rizuul]

Thank you all so much. I am surprised how many suggested a builder so early on. What I have been doing is settlers like crazy and getting a lot of cities early. What I have learned from you guys is to find a few good spots and get that squared away before any more expanding, barring a great spot, of course. This will make the game more manageable until I get used to it. You guys are amazing!!

Another thing is that I am playing on PS4, and I bought the expansions. I wanted to get the hang of the vanilla game first before installing the expansions.. Is this a good approach?

If high forest count......

Builder -> builder -> builder -> settler -> builder-> settler -> military as needed.

Especially on faster game speeds, ignoring improvements and just chopping will boost your start significantly.

Never thought of that. Thanks!

 

[Victoria]

Is this a good approach?

Yes and no. One very key mechanic change in Rise and fall is Loyalty and changes the game a bit. Otherwise, sure it is simpler I guess.

 

[Bliss]

If high forest count......

Builder -> builder -> builder -> settler -> builder-> settler -> military as needed.

Especially on faster game speeds, ignoring improvements and just chopping will boost your start significantly.

Are you chopping to build more builders? You will increase their cost and make the chop less valuable every time.

 

[Victoria]

You will increase their cost and make the chop less valuable every time.

Nope they are chopping in settlers
You only try chopping in early builders once.

 

[Rizuul]

Can you only chop the ones inside your area, or can you chop up the ones outside of your influence zone? Doesn't chopping down trees cost you production in the long run?

 

[Victoria]

Doesn't chopping down trees cost you production in the long run?

Inside only.
So 60 production now at turn 40 or use a lumber mill to get 60 slower over the next 20 turns. It seems like a no brainier at first, keep the mills. It is about what you use that chop for. A settler. Chop now every time.... a monument or granary, probably now, a spearman you did not need ... no do not chop.

It may seem wrong and that is why people just do not. But if you want to be efficient and fast then there is no argument, just look at the GOTM forum, the fastest victories use chopping. There is no argument, just facts.

Chopping in an early district is also a questionable act but chopping that district in for an inspiration and an envoy or 2 then it becomes more complex.

 

[Bangau]

I was so confused reading this thread, but then saw it was continued from a discussion three years ago.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

Depends. but i'd like to do it as soon as my first city has earned level two.
Preferably first settlers should be bough rather than trained since you'll get minimum price of 320 Gold.