Explain to me how to play Progress

Dawnpromise

Prince
Joined
Oct 4, 2016
Messages
422
I've been seeing people discussing how Progess is a strong policy tree for 'mid-late' game and I'm having trouble wrapping my head around it. Every attempt to play a game with Progress tree leads to me feeling like I'm constantly falling behind other civs until I eventually get bored/frustrated and quit near the end of the medival era.

Am I quitting too soon? I normally play (Tradition) Byzantium so is my preferred civ just a bad mesh? I would appreciate any advice.
 
Gold, science, and culture. Use them. I know it's a simple reply, but that's really what progress is about. Try to have strong cities that grow well.

Edit:
Try Germany. You'll quickly learn what makes Progress so great, guaranteed.
 
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You'll have to clarify that a bit better. That struck me as the Civ equivalent of "Learn to block" or "Git gud". I understand that progress is a very generalized policy tree but I'm having trouble understanding how it can be considered 'equal' to Tradition or Authority which both have definitive niches and play styles they support. Progress just feels like it's not helping anything enough to make a difference.
 
Yeah I added the Germany bit for extra help. Keep a decent infrastructure with good production and instantly switch everything to Hanse when it's available. That 5% extra production for each city state trade route is insane. It should help you make up for any inadequacies on industry and let you see Progress mount up.
 
Learning game:
1. Take Carthage and Small continents;
2. Policies: progress, liberty, fraternity, equality;
3. build order: capital - shrine + monument. other cities monument, others when you get expertise;
4. once capital hits 4/5 pop, start building settlers. 3-4 is enough.
5. select god of commerce - this way you can skip shrines and will swim in gold.
6. once you get expertise, start focusing on culture and later science buildings.

build more and more cities, you should be so powerful noone will touch you, then go piety and focus on temples in all cities, once you get industry and can send less monies on more rushed prosuction and then those buildings will provide more culture and gold, you will see why is this so powerful, but you will win the game before that anyway
 
Currently updating mods. Still I'm seeing recommendations on 'how to play' so I suppose the next question is "Why play progress?" maybe I'll understand after I complete a game or two with progress but I'm still curious to why people play progress to begin with. In fact I'm getting the impression that it's a weak policy unless you specifically play to its strengths at which point it gets broken.
 
Yeah I added the Germany bit for extra help. Keep a decent infrastructure with good production and instantly switch everything to Hanse when it's available. That 5% extra production for each city state trade route is insane. It should help you make up for any inadequacies on industry and let you see Progress mount up.

If OP abandons by the end of the medieval era, Germany won't help him. He needs to learn to play the early game.
 
If OP abandons by the end of the medieval era, Germany won't help him. He needs to learn to play the early game.
I won't deny part of my problem with Progress is the lack of early game response. Tradition and Authority part have a noticeable effect on game play. Progress I keep having the sinking feeling like I've been tossing my policies in the sink with nothing to show for it. I just don't feel like progress even HAS an early game and it sours the entire session. As a result I feel like I'm better of starting a new game then continuing my old ones when I play progress which I suppose means I never enjoy the payoff it's supposed to have.

Perhaps someone can point out what points Progress starts to pick up at? As unpleasant as constantly feeling like I'm falling behind early game is I'd probably feel better if I had some checkpoint to register: "This is where it gets better".

Also I'll admit mid and late game civs like Germany aren't my preference. I usually prefer civs like Byzantium, Korea, and Celts if that helps any with advice. Also I usually play around Warlord/Prince difficulty if that's to be considered.
 
It's because Progress is one of the strongest policy if you have the better start because Progress essentially snowballs you toward victory whereas the other policy trees have more of a passive bonus. Authority is the strongest policy with weak starting positions (no production?!). With Tradition being the middleman of all of this.
 
It's because Progress is one of the strongest policy if you have the better start because Progress essentially snowballs you toward victory whereas the other policy trees have more of a passive bonus. Authority is the strongest policy with weak starting positions (no production?!). With Tradition being the middleman of all of this.

Makes sense, and it falls in line with my personal experience when attempting to play Progress. That said it does raise the question of how 'enjoyable' people find progress to be. I've never been a fan of 'snowball' games as they tend to either fail at the start or completely break the challenge curve.

Maybe it's my complacent gaming syndrome acting up but the more I think on it the less it sounds like I'd enjoy playing Progress. But at the same time I feel like I'm failing to improve at my game play if I don't at least learn enough to understand why people enjoy the policy branch.

Maybe I'm setting myself up for a no-win situation at this rate.

EDIT: Actually I may need some clarification on what you mean Tradtion/Authority being the 'passive' bonuses? Progress is the one that feels very passive to me. Tradition I feel like each policy has a strong bump in power and the ease of fielding an army with Authority encourages me to be aggressive. Progress however is just sort of....there....doing...something...I hope.
 
Still I'm seeing recommendations on 'how to play' so I suppose the next question is "Why play progress?" maybe I'll understand after I complete a game or two with progress but I'm still curious to why people play progress to begin with. In fact I'm getting the impression that it's a weak policy unless you specifically play to its strengths at which point it gets broken.

Conventional wisdom is that Tradition is better for science and culture, Authority for Domination, and progress for Diplomatic victories. It can also rival Authority for domination, and can compete for a SV as well. So it's pretty well-rounded... and it's definitely not weak.

ashendashin focused on gold. This is one of the hardest things for newer players to grasp, but generating gold via TR and GM speeds the building of whatever you want, even more than you think it will. It plays right into Progress' wheelhouse because the more cities you have, the more gold buildings you'll have. To this you add the Progress-centered UA's and UB's of an appropriate civ.

But first you have to get through the early game. My advice is to try Carthage. Their 175g upon founding a city is a crazy boost that more than makes up for Progress' early weakness. And the free lighthouses beg you to take Fraternity (food and science for connections) along with God of Commerce. This way you can have a good time in the period where you normally struggle. Get good at Carthage, and then you're ready for a Progress civs that take longer to peak.
 
Not really seeing any mention of difficulty, but frankly, Progress on higher difficulties is usually quite a pain as it DOES take time to peak... and those difficulties are cheaty enough.
 
Here is an example of good progress start. Game is over now and I doubt I will continue, as I don't know what would have to happen for me to lose this game. And the more cities Ill get, the wider will the gap be, even if points will not reflect that.
Spoiler :
 
I won't deny part of my problem with Progress is the lack of early game response. Tradition and Authority part have a noticeable effect on game play. Progress I keep having the sinking feeling like I've been tossing my policies in the sink with nothing to show for it. I just don't feel like progress even HAS an early game and it sours the entire session. As a result I feel like I'm better of starting a new game then continuing my old ones when I play progress which I suppose means I never enjoy the payoff it's supposed to have.

Perhaps someone can point out what points Progress starts to pick up at? As unpleasant as constantly feeling like I'm falling behind early game is I'd probably feel better if I had some checkpoint to register: "This is where it gets better".

Also I'll admit mid and late game civs like Germany aren't my preference. I usually prefer civs like Byzantium, Korea, and Celts if that helps any with advice. Also I usually play around Warlord/Prince difficulty if that's to be considered.

Yes, I think Progress' biggest liability in the "public eye" (meaning people who haven't experimented a lot with it) is its lack of direction. Tradition has a clear path -few cities, work all your specialists, build every building in every city, don't get into wars unless you have to- and Authority too - high production means a great infrastructure early game, allowing you to expand quickly while building a big army to conquer land and potentially snowball to offset the tree's poor scaling.

Progress is my favorite -ancient era- policy tree on Deity, so here's advice:
  • you need a source of early game culture. You can choose God of All Creation -though perhaps the AI is slow to found a pantheon on Prince, idk-, the culture on wheat pantheon if you have a lot of those nearby, festivals if multiple easy luxuries -not hidden behind forests or jungles- are in range, etc. Certain luxuries give culture too, which means you might be able to skip the culture pantheon. Or pick a civ with early culture.
  • if you expand relatively early (I have at least 4 cities by turn ~80 on Epic generally), and go for the right branch of Progress, you get a ton of gold and science, and decent production. You can take a science lead and use it to reach certain techs before your opponent - Mathematics for example. Because you went wide, you'll have a sizable unit supply cap and the gold income to sustain it. You should always be hitting that cap and be waiting for an opportunity to declare war on one of your neighbors to seize good territory; for example, wait until someone is DoWed by another civ and then double-team them. The distraction means you will face less resistance, and you will get a significant diplomatic modifier with the third civ for having fought a common foe. I think aggression is essential with Progress, but you have to be opportunistic unlike with Authority. Taking a Holy City is particularly useful, because culture-generating pantheon tend to produce little faith and thus you might not have the opportunity to found. But you know what they say: "Hey, nice religion you got there... would be a shame if anything happened to it."
I don't think the three civilizations you mentioned are particularly good with Progress. Korea wants to play very tall, the Celts very aggressively early game and Byzantium I don't play a lot but maybe you could make it work. Civs you might like:

Carthage (free building, city connection and gold on founding)
Egypt (Burial Tomb is fabulous and you want as many of them possible, the UU is great for early war)
Rome (expand peacefully until you get the Legion then conquer territory; wide has a very good synergy with the +15% production from the UA)
Spain (same as Rome - conquering a religious civ is particularly great because you can wipe out their religion and secure your spread)

There are more of course, Progress can work with most civs under the right circumstances.
 
I'm not too experienced a player (maybe 500 hrs?) but I find I play progress better than the other two trees. I play on emperor.

Early:

For policies, start with the right side and go for Equality. The gold generation allows you to support tons of cities before markets. I often have 5 cities while my opponents have 2-3 (any more and happiness can become an issue). My army is usually the smallest though. Use gold to buy units to deter opportunistic civs. Once markets come up you'll be able to purchase a more respectable army if needed.

For techs, grab Pottery immediately and focus on expanding. If you have some kind of gold generation advantage you can delay Trade for other techs. Other techs can help you select better expansion locations. You'll want markets before your buildings/units bring you into the negatives though, so plan ahead. Iron working is also important for the forge, which will help your cities build things and later grab your a wonder with the Great Engineer.

I like to build shrines, because they are maintenance-free and religion is a great boon to expanders. Monuments are important to keep up in policies though, so I usually build shine first in most cities, but monument first in others.

You generally want to be building buildings rather than an army because you don't want unhappiness problems. Because of this nearby Authority civs will have a natural advantage over you -- consider trading them a luxury resource for free for the diplomatic benefit. Tradition civs are safer to expand towards, but they can still have an army advantage if they didn't spend hammers expanding.

As progress you have the hardest time scoring an ancient/classic wonder because of how many settlers you built. I would not attempt it unless you have some kind of production advantage (luxury resource mines, or being Egypt or something). Your policies will fall behind a little as well, further hurting your chances at wonders. It's not too bad though as you should be able to nab one with your first Great Engineer. By medieval you will have good culture generation from building buildings and maybe even a city with nothing to do. You should be able to competitively build wonders now, as other civs will have the extra cost from existing wonders. If you are going to build a wonder, I would recommend Oracle. The free policy can snowball you into a wonder building civ, and I find AI's are usually competing for Angkor Wat and Colossus at this time.


Mid:

Expand slowly, but don't feel pressured to if your happiness/military can't handle it. Around this time I find other civs catch up or even surpass me in city count (5-6). Just stay calm and focus on building high quality cities and expanding carefully. You can dump your gold into an army or start-up cities, depending on the situation. Go ahead and build wonders with your capital or cities with a good amount of buildings. Knights are a terrific unit that you can probably utilize better than the AI's. You can brute-force civs still stuck in classical, or you can stall and confuse medieval civs.

It's small, but this is where Progress starts snowballing. Your focus should be securing small advantages while making sure your civ doesn't collapse on itself. I don't like to go full-conquest at this time, because it delays the snowball, but a progress civ can definitely start warmongering at this stage. If you choose to do so, the best time is before enemy civs unlock Tercios, which negates the usefulness of Knights.

If you have been building your buildings, you should have the infrastructure to expand faster around the renaissance. If you teched to pioneer (Banking), you're in a better position to take advantage of this. Look into Astronomy as you are probably running out of land and looking to expand overseas soon. Economics is a tech you want to build buildings even faster, but Navigation is probably the better choice. With your decent city count, you can start building your navy, which will help you protect your overseas cities, and gain an absolute advantage on any civ with no navy. I usually have 8~ cities at this time, and looking to expand a lot more.

In Industrial you should be near the top in terms of city count, maybe second or third to a runaway civ. This means you can have a large standing army that can give Authority civs pause. From this point on Progress feels pretty terrific. Instant yields from cities building buildings every turn, large standing army, good happiness, gold, etc... While other ancient era policies start to become lackluster, you'll always have that amazing 20% production for building buildings and tons of scaling bonus yields. While Authority has to think about happiness and infrastructure, and Tradition worries about their long-term military, as Progress, you are free to focus on any aspect of the game that pleases you most.

The only thing to stay aware of is sudden swings in happiness. You can lose 20~ happiness in a single turn due to how many cities you have. Always pay attention to your cities' needs.

Late:

Don't really have a guide to play this cause usually I just do whatever is best for my civ at this point. The sheer amount of stuff that having a wide progress civ nets you is enough to support just about any playstyle.

tl;dr

- authority and tradition will outperform you early, play nice
- expand while maintaining happiness and gold
- build buildings
- your mid-late game is superior
 
I'd really recommend Carthage, as many others have said. I think it might help address what you find lacking. You can get a situation where you found a city, and it already produces 3 science and 2 gold, has internal yields of 3 food and 2 hammers. Combine with God of Commerce and you get another 2 gold and 3 faith. Now this build lacks culture, but I think thats part of progress, you always have to be behind in something. You will catch up later, the two left side policies are very powerful during medieval and renaissance.
 
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I'll add that sending food trade routes to your capital from your satellite cities leads to a pretty massive amount of science from births, especially if you prioritize granary, well/watermill, aqueducts.

Part of the subtlety of Progress' excellent design is that it incentivizes an Athens style capital, which remains to this day the largest city in Greece.
 
Currently at around turn 130 playing as Progresss Byzantium (decided to stick with what I know and like) and finished the policy tree. Right now I'm feeling vulnerable as my neighbors have settled right up on my borders so I can't expand from only having two cities (I'm assuming that's not enough for Progress) and my military is near the bottom of the scorecard and were I not Byzantium I'd be locked out of founding a religion.

On the bright side got the Great Library built so that got me a tech lead.

I'm appreciating all the advice. I'm not sure if should militarize to expand or just stick with hunting for open territory right now.
 
Funny, I had the opposite opinion for a long time and took always progress.

For me, it is attractive because with the other ones, I never felt to be able to produce the same amount of yields starting in mid/late-game (Renaissance and later). Tradition neglects the other cities to boost the capital, and Authority is good when at war, but Progress just builds up steadily. So, it can be the kick-off to get ahead in the late game. Usually, Authority gets to a moment where it cannot continue its wars without massive happiness and/or science problems. Tradition's "One-City-Strategy" cannot generate the same yields as Progress' many cities at one point, especially when specialist buildings become available for all cities.

However, to feel the mid-/lategame - strength of progress, some advices for the start:

1) You profit the most of peaceful expansion as the extra city yields turn average settling positions into good ones. So, don't delay Pottery to long, and keep building settlers.
2) When possible, I start researching techs so that I can quickly improve my ressources and take the free worker early on. That can save you about 6-8 rounds of production for military units, buildings or settlers, and you have your improvements earlier (pantheon)! Also, this policy unlocks "Fraternity", a strong science boost, and "Equality" which is often crucial for my finances at this point.
3) Avoid early wars unless to block/capture an enemy settler.
4) Depends also on the difficulty, I guess, but I tend to completely ignore ancient wonders besides the pyramids (when I'm early enough). It is more important to get the expansion and build the basic buildings. Also, you need a bit of military to keep aggressive neighbours at distance.
5) Your weakest point in early game is culture, so try to get all alternative sources you can get (city states, pantheon, ressources...).

The strength of progress is in my opinion that when this setup works, you have the best potential to outperform the others without having to do much.
 
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