exploits i wouldnt mind seeing banned

[rysingsun]

1) any map tools - oh i see .. so now im supposed to select a map with an overnight run and then play 20 turns only to discover my 4 cow start is surrounded by jungle ... this was intended to save me time, not waste my time. should be banned because it is a hack.
2) stacking the deck on ai civ selection. if we are going for nonstandard setups then more reasonable to disable domination and culture wins. the ai selection is just plain cheesy though.

on the other hand some banned exploits we could make a case for allowing. for example:
1) adding workers to starving rioting cities.this is nowhere near being a game-breaking exploit as it is rarely useful before the milking phase. after all why on earth would i eliminate so many workers before all my territory has been irrigated? and isnt it smarter after that to add them to my (non-starving) cities to speed up their growth to max? only after that is it useful to build additional workers to use the exploit mentioned. and all it will do is boost score modestly during the milking phase. as i said, hardly a game-breaker.
2) some reloads should be acceptable. it is maddening not to be able to reload after accidentally disbanding the wrong city, the one with pyramids in it, simply because it looked like a junk city at the time and i neglected to double-click on it before choosing to disband it. at the beginning of my turn i often stack move most of my units onto a few central stacks and then from there send them to their destinations. it saves a lot of time. but it's also maddening to see a stack of 300 units accidentally move onto an unroaded square or enemy square and use up their movement allowance for the turn and then be told that i'm cheating to reload, all at the same time that when a person hacks a game with mapfinder type programs he is lauded as a "smart player".

 

[archphoenix]

I think that persuade boss to change rule is difficult.
too many submission under current rules.
IMHO, I obey the rule of course, but I have my own trick.
that is, I only play game that can finish quickly,
such as small map or easy level, and hesitate to try Histo and culture 100K, so even I make big mistake in such game, I don't feel too much maddness.

 

[Smirk]

For some perspective, how would you enforce all of those rules?

The point about the maps and civs selections are just ill-thought out by you. Since someone could get any given setting randomly disallowing their selection is pure silly. All it would reward is someone that gets lucky with the config, or someone with lots and lots of free time. Removing those obstacles makes it more a test of skill and knowledge, although the top games are still milks and those still reward those with lots of free time.


As for the worker exploit you just aren't using your head there, if this were allowed then someone after dominating the map could produce only workers. Joining those workers well beyond sense would raise the score to unreasonable levels, thereby forcing everyone else to do this to get a high score. Additionally, if I remember correctly, you can't even add workers like this in PTW or Conquests so you would have a bunch of people placing original Civ which is filled with so many bugs and exploits already that I wouldn't even acknowledge any game played with it.

 

[rysingsun]

points well taken. the worker joining thing is disabled in C3C? i thought i was just confused how to do it

yes i will never convince the boss .. i know that too

... i think im just a bit ticked because my 100 percent standard game cannot be submitted because i started on a huge map with only the standard seven opponents and i needed eight ... and it makes me think that every time a "rule" is added for submission it provides me a way to screw up.

... and i didnt even use a mapfinder utility that searches for information on the map that without the hack could only be found out by starting and then resigning the game, saving the seed if the revealed map looks good. i know my score would not have been significantly different with eight opponent rather than seven. theoretically it would have increased the research rate and thus decreased the turn number at which i achieved near-domination.

 

[superslug]

... and it makes me think that every time a "rule" is added for submission it provides me a way to screw up.

Well, the Hall of Fame was designed to be a challenge.

On the other hand, we do have a 4000bc check page where you can upload your starting save and the website will tell if you have correct settings. (Note that you'll have to be logged in to see the link.)

Regarding Mapfinder, MapStat and AI selection, I fully understand your opinions against them. I was personally opposed to some of it myself at first. Over time though, what Smirk said happened: it became about strategy and reduced the "free time advantage".

Regarding the worker dogpile, I think you seriously underestimate just how big that can be.

2) some reloads should be acceptable.

The current reload rules haven't changed in years, which is pity, because they're a little soft as it is.

 

[zerksees]

I still think an "anything goes" category in the HOF might be interesting.

There are too many variables I guess, because if people started creating their own maps, placing the AI together on small islands, etc. etc.

Nonetheless it might increase the submissions.

 

[Moonsinger]

1) any map tools - oh i see .. so now im supposed to select a map with an overnight run and then play 20 turns only to discover my 4 cow start is surrounded by jungle ... this was intended to save me time, not waste my time. should be banned because it is a hack.

! This reminds me of a movie, Bedazzled starring by Brendan Fraser and Elizabeth Hurley. IMO, this is fair game and isn't a "hack" at all. A hack is something that would stack the odd in your favor. Just because MapFinder give you exactly what you wish for, that doesn't mean that it's stacking the odd in your favor. Just like in "Bedazzled"!

 

[denyd]

Moonsinger: If you enjoyed the Brendan Fraser version you should check out the original Dudley Moore / Peter Cook version. Raquel Welch plays lust. For a bit of trivia see if you can spot the link between the original and the Beatles' Help.

 

[rysingsun]

placing the AI together on small islands, etc.

actually this is starting to sound fascinating - after all there are pluses and minuses to this sort of thing. the tech pace will be painfully slow for example. it would be an interesting challenge to try to figure out what sort of placement could actually lead to the quickest domination - that is the quickest transition to milk phase.

custom maps i'm not so in favor of. somebody is going to make a map of 100% flood plains with rivers touching every tile

 

[Pentium]

Or 100% mountains except one tile, and guess who starts on it. Sid Huge Conquest on the second turn

 

[EMan]

$0.02 Worth (Overvalued):

Customizing Maps is an interesting thought........the Winner would be the Player who designed the most "exploitive" map before the game even began!

I do STILL believe in having a section of the HOF devoted to "Firaxis Rules". This would basically be a separate HOF or completely separate section of the HOF whereby anything you can do ONCE THE GAME HAS STARTED would be allowed. For example, Game Replays, Reloads, Dogpiling, Double Negative GPT, etc. And it would be fun to see what players could achieve with say GOTM starting positions.

Nobody would have to read AND understand any Rules......because there wouldn't be any! (This would definitely appeal to my 5 teenage kids!!)

Having said that, I think superslug and Team have done a fabulous job in laying down the Rules for the "Regular" HOF. They are open-minded about New Ideas, New Rules, Exploits and Criticisms. AND, when you consider that they don't even get paid to do this..............Most Admirable!!

 

[superslug]

In the year 2025, superslug will be busy running HOF's 4, 5, 6 and 7. Still, he will have to take time from preparing from HOF 8 to check on III and see how many submissions EMan sent this week (playing from his wristwatch in his rocking chair).[/nostradamus]

 

[Mistfit]

AND, when you consider that they don't even get paid to do this..............Most Admirable!!

We don't? superslug keeps telling me my check is in the mail....

 

[zerksees]

placing the AI together on small islands, etc. etc.

It just dawned on me that you would only need one AI on a huge map - if we were going with no rules. Put them on a small tundra island with every coastal tile mountains. The possibilities are endless!

 

[denyd]

If we go that way, you could mod the game to remove the win by domination flag, play without any opponents and have settlers & workers cost no population and only 1 shield. Make a giant checkerboard of luxuries, resources and cattle with every tile surrounded by rivers. A very boring game it would be. 90% of the challenge of Civ is working within the rules, whether the original game design, Superslug's set or your own personal values.