Fantasy Army Unit Modpack (V5)

[sman1975]

Barbarian monster units built, initial testing completed. Still lots of work left - deciding combat strength, prereq & obsolete tech, as well as icons & flags. They won't be OP - probably much lower than the standard melee of the era they spawn - but they'll have "pillage" abilities so they can't be ignored. I think they look nice and add another layer to the gaming experience. The Beholder attack is quite a sight to, uh, behold.... (sorry)

The first picture are the basic monster units, and the second picture shows some "composite" units that will probably appear in latter eras. I still expect most of the units to obsolete before Industrial Era. May keep 1-2 units alive all game, in case of revolutions in latter eras.

Hope to have the next version posted Tuesday, but it may be on Steam if I can't load the package here. Getting the artwork completed always seems to slow me down. If it has to go to Steam, I may add a few more Barb-only units, such as scorpions, spiders, zombies, werewolves, witches, and a couple of sea monsters. All of these will be easily removable from the game if they become toooooo much.

Next on the list is to "fix" the Strategic View flags....

 

[sman1975]

OK - Icons, flags, and SV files are completed on the Barbarian monsters.

Will probably work this afternoon on the extra monster units mentioned in the previous post. The artwork for them is already done, and for me that's the slowest part. Units are usually easier.

I still need to convert the player unit flags into SV files and change to associated pointers. That will probably be done Tuesday, with a new package published later in the day.

 

[sman1975]

New Barbarian monsters: Kraken (sea), Leviathan (sea), Spiders, Scorpions, Werewolves, Witches, and Zombies.

All units (initially) tested. SV files added, but in finishing this, I learned that there is a hard limit of 256 total SV files allowed in the game before it starts demonstrating erratic behavior. So, I decided to use a generic "class" and "barb monster" SVs, which only adds 7 SV files to the game (vice 54 SV files in the original design). This should make the game better able to play with other mods, especially if those mods add lots of SV files on their own.

Still finalizing Barb unit stats, and expect to wrap that up this morning. After that, I'll run a few long (100+ turn) Live Tuner test games to check for stability. If all looks good, I'll release later today.

As I don't have any more changes to add, pending feedback, this mod is in final BETA and ready for extensive testing.

 

[sman1975]

Final BETA version of the mod is uploaded, ready for testing. Completed 4 x 500+ turn test games without CTD, so it looks to be somewhat stable.

If you're willing to help testing, it is greatly appreciated. Key points to examine while playtesting:

1. Assuming the new units have a tendency to become OP, what is the right number maximum for each unit? Currently all units are limited to 3 each.
2. The Cleric class is the only class that primarily uses Faith to purchase, not Gold or normal Production. Is this the preferred approach? Should all/most units be obtained only through Faith purchase (with the exception of the first 1-2 units in the class)?
3. Is the mod stable - do the new units cause (more than usual) crashes to desktop?
4. Is the mod fun to play - does the mod add value to the gaming experience?

I have included all the design suggestions I've received up to date, so the mod is in final BETA until any feedback from testing and/or additional suggestions come in. Please let me know what else we need to do to make this mod better or close it out in preparation to publish to Steam.

Thanks for the help!

 

[sman1975]

OK - no comments in 30 days. I'm releasing to Steam and moving on. Steam link:


http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=974922021


Will monitor this thread, so if you see something later that needs addressing, please let me know.

Thanks for the help getting this out. Sman

 

[DracoDrake01]

Yo, DracoDrake here. You asked about exchanging ideas about dragon classes?
Its been a while since I saw a good dragon in civ. I have a few ideas. Mainly its based off of another mod. I also always end up wondering if dragons should be ranged units, melee, or both. Since the dragons are typically wild creatures (barbarians) it might be an idea to have them gain xp with time to lvl up or something from a weak creature to a more powerful one, since I doubt barbarians upgrade units and dragons grow stronger with age and will be a real problem if you just let them hang around.

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=171827383&searchtext=song+of+fire+and+ice

I believe the Targaryen Civ has a unique dragon unit that upgrades upon discovering certain tech in various eras. (Start off as Babies/wyrmlings, and grow up to city destroying monsters with high mobility and move after attacking or some such nonsense). Its been a while since I looked at the mod tho and its a bit late so I cant give too much more tonight.

Still love the mod, very unique and fun.

 

[sman1975]

Hey, Draco, welcome aboard.

So - are you asking for a player civ, based on dragons, or a normal human civ with dragon units? From what I read in your post I think I understood that you want to add a dragon unit in the game that would upgrade through the eras to something quite powerful near the end of the game? My original idea was to add different dragons at different eras, as you're right - I don't think Barbs upgrade units, and to be honest, allowing unit upgrade defeats the "unit build limit" I put on all these units to keep them from dominating the game too much.

The following link shows the available fantasy models:

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/list-of-avaliable-fantasy-units.521599/

I can generally mess around with colors to add variety to these models to create new units, but the basic model is all I can use. Can also change the size of the unit.

So, please take a look at the first three entries to get an idea of what's available, then help me figure out exactly which dragon shows up during which era (basically, it's prerequisite tech, and the tech that makes it obsolete/next higher class' prerequisite tech), what the stats are, and what some of the possible promotions might look like. I'll be glad to add the unit, but really want someone with passion for the topic to drive the content.

So, to make a long story longer, if you want to add dragons to Fantasy Army mod, it would help me greatly if you can come up with some ideas that help create the class of dragons you'd like to see in the game.

********************************************************

Some background: the Fantasy Army mod we're building here is more of a stable of units that a normal civ can use. However, I'm also using it as the basis of that Spellcaster's Toolkit mod I was talking about on Steam. Anything built for the Fantasy Army mod will be added to the second mod automatically. It's not meant to be playable, but simply be available for anyone to use to build their own fantasy civ.

From what I've been able to figure out so far, there are 6 animations in the game that can be re-used to similar magic attacks: GDR (a nice blue, "icy" attack), the XCom (green, poison/arcane attack?), the Byzantine Dromon boat attack (a nice line of fire), and normal city attack (looks like a small fireball), and two missile attacks, from the rocket artillery unit and I think the guided missile. So, basically 2 types of magic missile attacks.

The Spellcaster's Toolkit adds units that can use any of the 6 animations - you'd just use the particular attack that made sense in your game design. I've gotten about 8 models working (meaning they can be loaded and can use any of the 6 animations), but hope to add more sometime soon.

 

[DracoDrake01]

Hello Again,
Sorry not entirely sure what I want as an end goal. I’ll just go down the list from your last post.


What I was originally asking for was a barbarian styled unit that somehow upgraded through the eras. Not sure how feasible an idea that is though.

However adding a dragon unit to the game is perhaps the better choice.

Still I am a fan of having dragons upgrade, but I respect your build limit. I’m trying to think of a way around it. If you have it so that you are only able to build the smallest dragons (ones you build at the beginning of the game then become obsolete or unable to build the upgraded units) you would have a unit that starts off weak and grows with your empire. As of right now the only way I can see that happening is if we have all the dragons upgrade path, only be able to build the basic dragon unit, and have something like the capitol provide a resource of say 3 dragon eggs that the entire upgrade path relies on, allowing only 3 dragons at any one time. I’m unsure how practical of an idea that would be but I am a fan of having a dragon or really any unit grow up with you and seeing how dragons in myth live thousands of years and grow with age it would be a really neat mechanic in my opinion to somehow find a work around for only 3 dragon units you build early game that grow up.

Still that is a fantasy of mine.

As for prerequisite technology. The dragon and drake models I saw and what most people downloading the mod would be familiar with would be a western European or Norse style of dragon. The difference being one has two sets of legs and wings like in dragon heart the movie and one has wings and legs like in Skyrim and Game of Thrones. Typically dragons of these areas are personifications of greed and various other deadly sins, but mostly greed. As such they would probably have prerequisite technology centered around the big gold producing technology in the game.
For each era: I would most likely pick animal husbandry or mining for ancient; reasons being dragons love to eat livestock and possibly in-game lore of training dragons, Mining because dragons love shiny things and mining for me is usually when I start to get my first bits of gold unless I have plantations, but if I remember correctly you had a ton of things prerequisite on calendar already. Since I see these initial units as Wyrmlings or a relatively weaker dragon I’m personally fine with them being in one of the first techs.
Classical era I would either have horseback riding if you were making a proto dragon rider or Currency because markets, Petra, Mints and such would most likely attract dragons to ally to the city.

For Medieval era my gut reaction is to go with guilds, but as it is awfully close to currency on the tech tree that might not be advised. However, going with Chivalry would make a lot of thematic sense with knights and all being a part of this tech as well. If we base it off of a more dndesque dragon that’s in a good alignment I could make an argument for education as well, but I feel chivalry works more.

Renaissance Era bit tricky depending on what we go with. An ice dragon in lore is usually depicted as migrating between the poles of the planet, as such Astronomy or Navigation would make a great choice for a migratory ice dragon. For the base theme I would say economics over banking, since chivalry is very close to banking and dragons would be attracted to banks coming online about the time of economics. I can also make an argument for Chemistry, for dragons may well have been in the armor for thousands of years at this point and knowledge of how they spew fire has come forth through chemistry and allowed for enhancements to their breath attacks and possibly support units with dragon styled crossbows shooting flames of death at enemies.

Industrial era, if we keep going with the gold = dragons model then electricity should be the prerequisite tech, seeing as I believe that unlocks stock exchange. Dynamite may also have an argument for it based off of one simple thing: If I was a general and just realized I had a massive explosive to throw at the enemy and I had dragons for thousands of years I would give either the dragon or guys on the dragon explosives to bomb the enemy with (kinda like an airship from civ 4).

Modern Era I can see Flight allowing for dragons to have riders or just improvements on armor being reasons for flight to be the next logical step in dragon upgrades.

Atomic era I can see radar having an impact on how dragons are deployed and used so I would pick radar.

Information era I can see a dragon for lasers, stealth following the whole dragons are basically flying units theme, I can also see information era people using robotics or nanotechnology to create robotic dragons akin to the giant death robot in dragon form (possibly accomplished by coloring the model with normal dragon colors and flashing green lights and silver metal constructs on arms, chest, head, and legs).

That’s through the tech tree. The later techs seem a bit more difficult to pin down on what would fit best. I generally see the dragons at the various eras being recruited as variations on their age: wyrmling, very young, young, juvenile, young adult, adult, mature adult, old, very old, ancient, wyrm, and great wyrm. That is based on the models given as the Eastern Dragons usually aren’t modelled and I didn’t see one in the list unless you count the Naga whose model looks more like a snakeman than a traditional naga.


Promotions

Promotions. In general dragons are terrifying creatures able to fly and ravage cities and fields with little regard for human life that gain power as they grow up. So something akin to a helicopter unit in the late game is how I think of dragons (sidenote: dragons traditionally don’t have the range of arrows despite having ranged fire attacks its more of a close range thing, so if we do want a ranged dragon I would still have it able to melee but with a range of 1 similar to gatling gun or hand axe and possibly reserved for later era dragons). A hovering unit able to pass over mountains because flight, all tiles costing 1 move because flight, unable to capture cities since a single dragon probably cant control a city of thousands without a nearby army, I would still have them receive defensive bonuses being able to hide in forests and caves in myths, maybe pillaging costs no movement points (akin to celts pictish warrior or Denmark berserker) since the usually devastate country sides, Lower attack strength of enemy units through fear because dnd usually has such a mechanic and its a Giant Lizard with Fire and death, and possibly siege seeing as fire and other elemental attacks are very effective against cities. Blitz or the ability to move after attack would also be something I see as akin to dragons as they burn a village and then retreat off to their lairs; blitz may be too powerful tho so move after attack would be useful. Besides that dragons would become faster and stronger with increased range as they grew up or better dragons recruited in the tech tree. Ofcourse a size increase of the dragons is usually recommended if they are aging up with each tech.


Random Dragon Things
---not necessarily things I want but just random dragon related things

Modern dragons are usually Wyverns similar to the white drake model with varying colors, or they are similar to the dragon model with varying colors corresponding each color to a different element with fire and gold equaling a fire based attack, ice and silver an ice based, and black and bronze? A more acid based attack. Those models cover in general the 3 main attack animations in the game unless you want to change of the colors of the animation which to me sounds like it might be more trouble than its worth. The latter model with colors and metals usually correspond chromatic dragons or those named after colors to evil or barbarian like monsters and metallic dragons to good and for civilization.
If you did want a dragon based civ there exists no mythological precedent I know of except in Chinese mythos, but those dragons were more of a loose confederation subservient to the jade emperor. Thus in my opinion an actual civilization based off of dragons would be completely up to the interpretation of its creator on what they want with the dragons. Though I would suggest that should the civilization of dragons come about it not be based entirely off of war or combat as there is more fundamentally to dragons than that, like greed, the pursuit of knowledge, or the bringing of the rains, rivers, and floods. Though Dragon Age Origins (a decently old game) had a dragon cult, basically a dragon set itself up as the personification or reincarnation of a divine figure and brainwashed the followers to become servants.
Dragons

Note: Thank you for this opportunity. A small disclaimer though, every culture has their own incarnation of a dragon like entity so much of this can be changed to meet a variety of cultures. Also if you need more variety of units, instead of Dragon B is improvement in every regard to Dragon A, I might be able to come up with a few ideas on other more specialized dragons (we might not have the models for them however seeing as only European Dragons are modelled).

Think I covered everything. Please forgive any spelling mistakes, different spellchecks insist certain things are wrong . Still love playing with the mod btw with my legion of German Spiders

 

[sman1975]

@DracoDrake01 - wow. Talk about input!

Seriously, there's a lot here I have to think about to see what I want to propose back to you (which will be things I think I can actually mod given my capabilities....).

I am seriously distracted by real-world stuff right now, but hope to actually start working on the next version of the mod by next week end. Hopefully, we can exchange some thoughts between now and then that can steer me in the right direction.

Thanks for the great suggestions and feedback!

 

[DracoDrake01]

@DracoDrake01 - wow. Talk about input!

Seriously, there's a lot here I have to think about to see what I want to propose back to you (which will be things I think I can actually mod given my capabilities....).

I am seriously distracted by real-world stuff right now, but hope to actually start working on the next version of the mod by next week end. Hopefully, we can exchange some thoughts between now and then that can steer me in the right direction.

Thanks for the great suggestions and feedback!

You did ask for input. I'm just happy to help. I also understand. Real Life is a thing.

 

[sman1975]

OK. Finally some free time to look at Draco's suggestions. Here's what I see think about a playable dragon unit added to the Fantasy Army mod:

About allowing a weak unit to only be built in Ancient era and let it evolve over time: technically, this isn't difficult to do - to me the question is one of balance. The AI won't really know how to use the unit properly, i.e. keeping it safe near the capital and allowing it to grow into something stronger. Even if you give it a default AI model to use, one that is relatively safe, it will still likely waste these units wandering around in a random, semi-aimless route until it is bumped off by a better enemy unit out there. I've tried to use a similar construct in previous mods, and the AI simply won't act to "protect" these units and doesn't seem to mind to throw them off to the frontiers without escort. At this point, the human player will know to preserve the units until they are strong enough to be game changing, but the AI will have frittered its chance at this early in the game. It represents a clear OP advantage for the human player at little cost.

I've looked over the "Mod of Ice and Fire" link you sent, and this mod simply uses different dragon units, allowing them to upgrade to the next better unit once a certain tech is discovered. It goes back to the problem about not being able to limit the number of units in the game. It's theoretically possible to check each game turn for the number of dragons and remove extras (not hard to do at all) - but deciding which dragon to kill is the problem. It ultimately comes down to an arbitrary rule set that almost always will irritate the player - something I'd really like to avoid if possible.

The suggestions about tech and promotions sound quite, uh, sound to me. I'd definitely use them to build this class - with the only recommendation is they promotions are structured in such a way that more of these capabilities (and more effective) accrue to the later era versions of the class.

*****

If you're thinking about creating a playable civ based on dragons, that's quite a different question - and one that is probably simpler in most ways. The requirements would be something like these:
- What is the name of the civ and what are the capabilities that would define its Trait (or Unique Ability)?
- Who is the leader of this civ and what are his unique skills?
- Replacement units: Of course, I'm limited to available artwork, but still: what unit would replace their Civ V equivalent and at what tech? Capabilities/promotions? Resource requirements, etc?

For example, we start of with some weak dragon type unit - what are its stats? Each era has a "standard" infantry unit, so the dragon civ equivalent should be similar, especially if there are no build limits.

It would also be helpful to combine capabilities to help limit the number of new models needed. Would you really need a Warrior and a Catapult replacement? Or Warrior and Archer?

The goal, to me, would be to make it fun to play, a little exotic on the artwork, but not terrible OP.

**********

Soooooooooooooo, to make a long post longer - is it better to build the "Draco Class" of 6 dragon units and add them to the Fantasy Army mod, or build a new playable civ based on dragons? And BTW, if it's the second option, I'm going to need a bunch of suggestions on the design consideration on how to build it.

Thanks!

 

[sman1975]

@DracoDrake01 - also - concerning the FA "Draco Class" units - take a look at these:

https://forums.civfanatics.com/resources/dragon-series.24372/

I was thinking, maybe using these "walking" dragons - for most of the earlier units in the class and save maybe the last 1 or 2 units to be the continuously flying dragons here?

https://forums.civfanatics.com/resources/flying-dragon-continuously-flying-version.25384/

I can rearrange which type of attack goes with which color. Can also adjust the colors if none of them work for you. Just need to come up with a list of 6 different "units" - assign a name, color, attack, prereq tech, promotions, and any other distinguishing features, then Bob's your uncle...

Or we can go back to my original plan of having a human "Dragon Master" who has 1-2 of these as "familiars..."

Just a thought....

Oh, and BTW - each of the classes in the FA mod now have a specialty, e.g. recon, ranged, leadership, heavy melee, light melee, healing. What DND type specialty would the Draco class bring? What are we really trying to add to the game (well, besides some really cool looking graphics)?

 

[sman1975]

First shot at the Draco class promotions:

What do you think?

 

[sman1975]

Second shot at the Draco class promotions:

 

[DracoDrake01]

Sorry Been on vacation for a few days.

I see your point with the evolving thing.
I have seen a mod here and there make a few 'unit' wonders. In which 1 or a select number can be built and building wont be allowed any other way. It was a while ago so I cant source the mods I found this in... Its been a while but Star Wars Civs on the steam workshop had an example of this, each civilization was able to build a single Jedi Guardian unit (or Vader/Maul/Leia etc). Change the unit and a 1 to a random number and set number of dragons:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=577684657&searchtext=

Just a thought. Dont know how it was done though.

With regard to promotions it would make sense for them to gain in power as time goes on.

With regards to building a Dragon Civilization... well we would need to narrow down to which dragon, direction to take, etc etc. and even then Dragons arent known to be civilized so I doubt it would fit too well with them. If I had to name something for them though... Something along the lines of making money from faith, being worshipped by the human population. Or something to do with rivers, rains, floods, and food in reference for how eastern dragons are traditionally associated with the rivers of China and the seas and the food and destruction each brings. Beyond that I dont know of anything without a specific direction or area of dragon lore to focus on. If I had to choose what the unit dragon unit would replace though it would be the catapult/siege-unit, add in defensive bonus and movement. Given that dragons are known for burning houses (sieges) and not for close quarters combat (being killed by a single knight albeit a hero/paladin). Beyond that perhaps a unique building of a Lair that helps with gold and defense and maybe happiness (happy dragon=happy slaves). But if captured gives the enemy a ton of gold (similar to Egypt's building).

If I had to make a dragon civ I would most likely base it off of the Dragon Cult from Dragon Age but with involvement from multiple dragon lords serving an archdragon of some kind like Tiamat or Bahamut (seeing as the world insists on those being the names of Dragon Gods)

It would be easier in my opinion to build the draco class of units as opposed to a dragon civilization. Dragons only form social ties in modern literature and even that is sporadic and inconsistent at best so we would have a ton of work to think on. But I can think of a few suggestions if you really want to take on a dragon civ challenge since dragons exist in every civilization present in the game to some degree.

Moving from the walking dragons to the flying variants would make since with various promotions and stuff improving over time.

Those are some pretty dragon models btw. Note the six limb design indicating a dragon St. George would have fought. As opposed to the four limb wyverns of Norse myth.

Dragon Master could be interesting. Especially serving as an early unit to initially train dragons then various species of draco familiars are bred for war to serve the cause and as more units are unlocked its a different species of dragon bred for war or discovered.

What DND like thing do dragons bring. I agree with cool graphics. Besides the argument of dragons being in the name and usually being a boss like character in most dnd like things. Lets see. If we look at how we would use a large creature able to fly and breath fire on your enemies in battle. I would use it similarly to the keshik of mongolia but with a focus on the city damage and the fear/smoke cause by fire. Fitting your categories I would place that into the leader role. Seeing as fantasy leaders love to ride dragons. Leaders in civ are invaluable for sieges and psychological warfare, fitting a dragons main uses. Are maybe a royal guard of sorts (pretty sure Keshik were the Khans of Mongolias Guards so in a similar role). Not sure if I am also describing Ranged as well.

Love the look of the promotions.

Sorry for the brevity of the post. Just got home and wanted to respond atleast a little on all the questions asked. Dont think I missed anything...

 

[sman1975]

Vacation? What's that? Seriously, hope it was fun.

I've been experimenting with the Drako class the past couple of days. Here is my (very early draft) vision:

Note: The Wyrm move should be "2" - I also think the "no terrain bonus" entries in the promotions table should be reversed - the early dragons get the bonus, the later/flying dragons do not.

Also - I've found an old animation file that looks like a long string of "steam" - like the Byzantine Dromon (fire) attack. If I can get that working, it will probably replace unit 4's "dromon" attack with something we'll call "acid attack" or something like that. And also replace unit 3's fire ball with the dromon attack.

 

[sman1975]

I see them as the pinnacle of siege units, due to their ability to attack cities, help adjacent units attack cities, get much more Gold out of plundering cities, and scare of any enemy relief forces. Their stats are close to the normal siege units of the particular Era they're in - with the combat strength being a little higher and the ranged attack a little weaker. Which means against normal units they'll be a little less damaging - but with their promotions, they'll attack cities much more effectively.

I see them as intentionally OP, but maybe limiting the numbers to 3 (or even 1) would help mitigate this. This is why I put them as only available through Faith purchase (and quite a lot of Faith as well). Units 1-4 will be pedestrians, units 5-6 will be fliers. Will probably add a "heal through plunder" and "no movement cost for plunder" feature as well.

I left the Holy Site build in, and not the lesser valued "Cairn" terrain improvement I'm adding for all other mod units that previously built HS's. This is intentional, as I see these units to be particularly legendary and worth of respect even after they're long gone. Given the expense, though, I can't imagine too many people building them just to make a HS.

I think I'm OK with the idea about introducing 6 new "national wonder" buildings that automatically create the unit/units. There might be problems with building management though, that make it a little tricky. Say, for example, I have a national wonder, aka "Dragon Lair" that automatically creates the Drake unit. If I were smart, I'd build it in a defenseless fringe city near a hostile civ. Once the unit is created, I'd provoke a war with that civ, and lose the city. I'm not sure, but I'd have to test to see if I can now create a new Dragon Lair in a second city, as I no longer have one.

The unit names were just a quick google search for dragon types. Appreciate any suggestions on how to provide some order to it. The "Icon" column in the upper table is my shorthand note for the attack animation to assign to whatever model we use for that particular unit.

The picture in the previous post is just a first draft - no problem with changing any of it. Once we can get the stats more or less ironed out, it's time to actually look at all the model links and decide which model/color/etc. will map to which of the 6 units in the class. If we go with the "Dragon Master" we'll also need to decide how many of them we will use (i.e. will each of the 6 units need a human master, or only a few) and what specific human model we'll need to select to add to the overall unit(s). If you have any preferences, let me know and I'll look at the models' code and figure out how to make it work. It's really your class, so it's really your call on how it will finally work (of course, within my coding limitations).

 

[sman1975]

Here's what I'm thinking about the initial models for Drako class. If they're loners, only 1 dragon figure will be depicted (as a giant). If we use the Dragon Masters, then maybe 1 human figure with 2 dragon companions (smaller of course)?

Units 1 - 4 (pedestrians): https://forums.civfanatics.com/resources/dragon-series.24372/ check the last picture at the link
#1: Green Dragon - uses small fire ball attack (normal city attack animation) - or simple "melee" attack
#2: Blue Dragon - uses small fire ball attack
#3: Black Dragon - uses the "dromon" thick line of fire attack
#4: Red Dragon - uses the "gas" thick line of smoke attack (if I can get it working)

Units 5 & 6 (fliers): https://forums.civfanatics.com/resources/flying-dragon-continuously-flying-version.25384/
#5: Gold Dragon (not pictured, but included in the mod pack) - uses the green "acid" attack (xcom animation)
#6: White Dragon (3rd picture) - uses the "ice/lightening" attack (GDR animation)

Please review the links and let me know if you'd like different models, attacks, combinations, etc. Almost anything can be interchanged, I think...

Possible pedestrian alternates:
https://forums.civfanatics.com/resources/dracolich.23373/ (not sure if it's a flyer or not - haven't looked at the archive very closely)
https://forums.civfanatics.com/resources/dragon.22798/ (it may be included already in the "dragon series - 24372" archive already)

Possible flying alternates:
https://forums.civfanatics.com/resources/black-green-and-red-drakes.22355/
https://forums.civfanatics.com/resources/white-drake.18579/

EDIT: BTW - I'm not trying to decide all this for you - just trying to keep the discussion going. I'll be happy to try and put what ever model, color, and attack together in whatever order you like. On previous collaborations, I've noticed sometimes I can wait for weeks (or longer) for input and I'd really like to avoid that in the future. So, I'm basically wanting to keep the conversation going - not trying to take over the design. Thanks.

 

[sman1975]

FWIW.... The Drako Class (draft version) is complete - here is the initial/temp class photo:

I know it's a bit early in the development process, but I wanted to get the unit files in place and tested. It's pretty easy to change the colors of the units and/or swap out the attacks, adjust unit size, etc. Now that the placeholder files are working, it should only be a matter of minutes to make any changes you see fit.

Here's what I ended up with - based on testing all kinds of combinations:
1. Wyrmling - Greenish - Fire ball attack
2. Wyrm - Bluish - Fireball attack
3. Wyvern - Black - Dromon attack
4. Uroboros - Red - Dromon attack
5. Drake - Green - Poison attack
6. Amphitere - Blue - Ice/lightening attack

The animations look pretty cool. On some of my original plans, the attacks just didn't look very good with the color of the beast launching them. OFC, everything you see above this line can easily be changed and quickly, now that all the files are in place.

Work left to do:
- Need to update the Icon Atlases to give these units unique Icons and Flags.
- Need to add the Promotions - should only take a few minutes as all the drawing and design work is done.
- Need to finish the Beastmaster class - have all the artwork for it and the class design complete.
- Need to complete the artwork for the Beastmaster Promotions and get them integrated/tested
- Need to completely re-work all of the Icon Atlases - this is actually a bit more time-consuming, as due to the growing number of units, the original layout of the Atlases needs to be completely redrawn. It's not difficult to do, just takes time.

It may sound like a lot of work, but I'm hoping to have most of it completed this week. The only "unknown" is testing. The Drako units have passed all their initial tests and look pretty stable. However, I still need to run them through a dozen or so 500+ turn simulated games via LiveTuner - just to make sure the mod is still stable.

Let me know what we need to fix/adjust. Thanks!

 

[DracoDrake01]

Yea, by vacation I meant just having a week off due to scheduling troubles, so I went to see my Fiance.

I’ll just go down the drafts as I see them


I like the spelling of Drako, though Microsoft word doesn’t like it. Other variations can include Draco, Dragon, Drake. So an overall build limit of 3, I assume per unit and not the Drako class as a whole. Is there upgrading between ancient and classical? It could be OP if so depending on the upgrade cost. For the ancient era 90 faith seems like a lot for a 5/4 combat with range one. But with the promotions it could even out, but would be fairer if allowed to upgrade to later units or relegated to building a Holy Site at the end of its life. For classical it makes sense to have a move of one actually as they are typically seen as larger slower worm like creatures, though they are often typically stronger in melee combat when compared to other dragons, typically only killed with a shot to the belly. They also have acid blood. If you’ve ever read the children of Hurin (maybe Turin) by Tolkien it has a great example of a typical Wyrm killing the male son. Then again Wyrms can also be seen as a really old and wise dragon. It might fit better as a medieval or Renaisance dragon name if we go with the really old dragon mentality and not the wyrm resembling a worm. I like the Wyvern having a move a 3, seeing as their main movement is technically through flight and being the first typical dragon in myth to be mass produced. With at that stage in the game a 260 faith cost being very reasonable and the first time we most likely see dragons used in mass combat. Uroboros is typically a more ancient main stay of dragon, the name could be used for the Wyrmlings instead as the uroboros are ancient Egyptian in origin and being more serpentine in design. Actually a lot of early civs have a serpent like dragon instead of the traditional European or Oriental varients with the Orient having a serpentish dragon still. I would name the Uroboros a Drake or Dragon. The Ren unit may be a bit vulnerable to ren melee era units with a strength of 17, with longswordsmen having a strength of 21? And Cannons having 20 ranged, and musketmen of 24? For comparison units I’d have in the Ren, still its an improvement over the cannon in my opinion. Drake for Atomic era I would be fine with or Ancient Dragon or Wyrm even. Maybe something Oriental as the dragons there are basically Godlike, So Celestial Dragon mayhaps. Amphitere is unique it’s the American variant of Dragon I believe I typically think of them similar to Phalanx a Boss in Shadow of the Colossus. Final suggestion for Atomic name I would put as Amphitere and for Information as Celestial Dragon. Both having a more Serpentine look to them and a massive size. Maybe Green, blue for the Celestial. With Green Red for the Amphitere, the most famous being Quetzelcoatl of the Aztec.
I’m fine with the promotion progress btw.
On the faith purchasing I can make a ton of Faith in the Information era with Great People scaling up to atleast a couple thousand to buy, so maybe increase the cost of Atomic and Information and maybe nerfing the Ancient and maybe Classical cost, since Wyrmlings are meant to be hardly worth it.
Hmm no Defensive terrain bonus as they grow up basically… Hmm makes sense in a way. They would get larger and an easier target. I would leave maybe the ren or med era dragons that can fly with the bonus and transition out of it adding value to those units and prolonging the life of the ren era unit till Atomic era. Finally dying out in the Modernish era and a resurgence with popular media culture of the atomic era
That Acid attack would fit very nicely. Sounds like a good find.

Pinnacle of Siege Units works well for me. Do they need to setup for an attack btw? For some reason I don’t see dragons needing as much prep as a catapult or cannon to fire.
3 should definitely be the limit. I like the faith purchase but not sure if the AI would buy them as a faith unit. I haven’t seen to many AI faith buying nontraditional units. I agree with the plunder points, Though Wyverns exclusively Fly if we name any wyverns, but it could work well if we had them as the Ren unit going out of date as the next unit is in the Atomic.

The HS build I agree with, especially if the Dragons cant upgrade, sort of retire the unit and help a piety build. The National Wonder Buildings would help the AI with the faith purchasing bit I mentioned above. It would be an exploit to do that but if you make the production only buildable in a main city, it wont be worth the loss of a good city just for 3 units you can get again versus just using Faith, which if you build right is easy to acquire, especially with a top spot.

I mentioned a few unit names above. I’ll fit a few more here:
Wyrmling, Adult Dragon, Naga, Lindworms, Serpents, Sea Serpent (if you want a submarine like dragon )
I’m still a fan of an ancient era Dragon Master who is similar to a warrior or scout. Maybe have him crucial in some way to recruiting the other dragons
I’m a fan of the models you’ve picked out. Maybe changing the names so the DnD nerds aren’t like clearly a White Dragon has an Ice not a lightning attack. Scaling Dragons by colors while convenient doesn’t really have any rhyme or reason as to why one color is an upgrade to the other. I prefer the names you found above, but I do enjoy the models. (Also in the above when I said serpentine dragon, since it is a myth figure any form is fine, even the European models but with clear variants in color scheme)
Attack models. Based off the names you initially used Uroboros could use an acid/ice attack. Amphitere I believe have had lightning based powers. Same with the Celestial I suggested. Inevitably what I seem to be suggestion basically has the more advanced dragons moving from fire to acid to lightning.

Comment to the BTW: You can decide as much as you want, it is ultimately your mod. I am happier with the later two dragons being the Amphitere and Celestial Dragon with the color schemes I mentioned above using the more lightning like or ice model for their attacks with the previous dragons going in almost any order. Though I do appreciate the comment, as I’m sure other people can be a bit less laid back than I am.

Summary of your first post: I’m happy with pretty much everything you’ve mentioned in the first post. What I’d change is maybe this:

Ancient: Dragon Master based off of scout or warrior somehow required for training of other dragon models, not sure if AI would get this though but I can live without that detail and would in lore serve as a way for humans to train dragons.
Classical: Uroboros (has a million spelling variations) with your wyrms current stats, I’m actually fine with a move of 1 since in myths they are serpent like and thus slower.
Medieval: Wyvern, since they are norse and berserkers will appear around the same time as them being the first move 3 units and the first ‘flying’ not necessarily promotion wise unit it’d be nice and I’m satisfied with their stats and price.
Ren: Drake for some reason modern myth has them as a flightless dragon.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=557807575
the Dracolisk of this model, maybe the Dracolich model you found? Has a good model of a flightless dragon, serving as a Keshik like unit maybe bumbing the damage by 1 overall and speed by 1, but treated more of a mounted unit? Basically a Ren era Keshik/Camel Archer (the other two are medieval?)
Also a possibility is the Unit Dragon or Adult Dragon or Occidental/Western Dragon I’m fine with any variant. I’ve just remembered they can frighten enemies so keeping them at 17 is fine with me. They should in regards to lore be the first real dragon that can fly for long distances, so pedestrian nonpedestrian hybrid or transistory unit.

Atomic: Amphithere, being more of a transition to Godlike Dragons I like its spot here with the current stats given.
Information: Celestial Dragon, being a nod to Chinese Dragons with the stats you’ve put and being a series of Godlike Dragons.

Random Thought: Could the Barbarians have special encampments to spawn a certain line of units? Like vampire lairs to build invisible swordsmenesque units that like to pillage or take unguarded workers being invisible barbs… so land subs that like to stab. Unless you have those already and I just haven’t seen them spawn. Or Dragon Lairs that use a standard Adultish Dragon Stat similar to the Med or Ren units but with different models of all the other colors of models and attack patterns.

I think that is all my thoughts. Sorry if my thoughts are a bit scattered.

Edit: Seems we had the same Idea on time to post