[Vanilla] Finally won with Catherine on Immortal...

[BLtheKid]

...a number of weeks back.

Now I am 0 for 14 on Deity, playing as Catherine with the following parameters:

Fractal Map
Standard Size
Random Climate and Sea Level
Ancient Era start
Normal Speed
Nothing else checked with all victory scenarios allowed
8 Civs counting myself - one higher than the default of 7

Whatever start I get, I play (and have been trying for a cultural win) - but some games get abandoned quickly once I determine there is no real chance of winning.

My question is, what percentage of the time would some of you advanced players expect to win, given the above?

I have found that I can get three reasonable cities for cultural purposes and get six cities overall maybe 40 to 50% of the time, but it seems nearly impossible to get through a game without someone eventually attacking you - if you did spend a lot of effort in building up defensive units, it would slow you down that much more in making other advancements that you need to win to begin with.

In my most recent game, I had a small continent all to myself and was making my latest attempt at a cultural win and had everything on auto-pilot after Liberalism but with the misfortune that I only had one religion to work with, so I wasn't going to get there in the end until the idiot Genghis Khan then attacked me for no reason.

He must like losing, because Julius Caesar was the one who was ahead of him in the space race and he leaves him totally alone instead.

I even tried one game with three cities just to see what would happen - has anyone ever gotten a cultural win on deity with just three cities?

 

[unas876]

Three things from the top of my head:

-Fractal. Totally random map, anything can happen pretty much, so that makes it near impossible to figure out a winrate to aim for.
-Random opponent civs. You don't know if you're sandwiched between Monty and Brennus who both have a different religion and will force you into war rather soonish, or if there are mostly Gandhi-esque characters who won't declare and will be like lightning rods for you if there are some warmongers on the map as well, or whatever. That also means there's no way of giving a percentage.
-8 Civs as opposed to 7 I think would make the game a lot harder in most cases, since Deity AI is already famed for boxing you in super early. Since you are already going for culture, it doesn't really matter that the AI will also have less land. If Shaka declares on you, you're screwed no matter if he has 6 cities or 12, or at least if that happens later in the game when you are behind in terms of military tech and all that.

Cultural victories I think aren't possible on some maps, and on most other maps you have to play the diplomacy aspect extremely well to have a chance. I have limited experience with this on Deity, but as far as I can say, it won't really be possible to keep up with the military and at the same time get culture before an AI goes to space. That means from mid-game onwards you pretty much can't get attacked or if you do, you have to bribe other people in immediately.

Bottom line I'd say is: either drop the culture thing from the start and figure out if culture is possible first and if not, go for another type of victory. Or you have to deal with many losses. In any case, if you want more detailed advice, posting a game and doing a writeup with advice from the pros is the best thing you can do. Also always fun for other people to play along

In terms of the three city culture challenge: I'm sure it can be and has been done under the right circumstances, but its certainly way less than ideal. But if you have the right AIs around you and three amazing cottage spots, why not? I've heard AZ say that he has won a lib-race and broken out to win conquest from just three cities, so I'm sure you could do culture.

Edit: btw, "everything on autopilot" is not something you will be able to afford very often on Deity Infinitely much better to micro everything yourself than to leave the AI to it.

 

[BLtheKid]

Yeah, I started at the lowest level and said to "win" and move on, I had to win more often than the "breakeven" point, which means I had to win in my first 7 tries. I managed this all the way through Immortal (I think that took me five tries). The win I got on Emperor was a Space Race one with Immortal being Cultural. In that one, I believe the psychotic Montezuma attacked me but as you stated above, I was fortunate to coincidentally have a relatively large amount of gold at the time and was able to get two allies immediately and another one soon after. All this occurred around 1100 AD or so. Suffice to say, over time Montezuma eventually went to zero as he learned a hard lesson in that one.

One reason I raised my question is I see a lot of Deity wins seem to be where very specific parameters and/or opponents are chosen, which kind of takes away from the spirit of things, unless one is trying to compete for a HOF score or something like that. So, I am keeping the playing field totally neutral but the downside is - is it even possible to win?

What other type of victory would you suggest with Catherine? Off the top of head Space Race would seem to be the only other possibility. She has the Cossack UU but by the time that comes up, I'd have to think other Civs military is powerful enough to prevent much from happening. Could Catherine possibly tech fast enough (and it would seem the only way to do so would be to have a limited number of cities) to have a chance in a Space Race game?

When I said "autopilot" I didn't mean leaving things to the AI. I meant that I had gotten Liberalism (and traded for Printing Press at the same time) and then went Free Speech, Caste System, Mercantilism and had the Culture going 90 to 100% the rest of the game, while building a few add-ons like Banks and such, while maxing out Great Artists at the same time.

Even if the Genghis Khan yoyo hadn't attacked me, I wasn't going to win anyway - the other problem is I was only getting 350, 250 and 150 culture per turn in my three cities even though I managed everything pretty well throughout the whole game.

 

[Windsor]

I would expect to win 95% of the time with those settings. Or at least, I used to expect that when I played regularly.

Map decides whats the best victory condition is, not leader/civ. And Cossacks can absolutely win a deity game.

But I'll be honest, the jump from immortal to deity is by far the biggest and most people are fairly comfortable winning on immortal before they make the jump.

Easiest is probably cultural victory (except AP-cheese) since you can be behind in research and lack production but still win.

 

[BLtheKid]

I'm playing Vanilla, so no AP. No disrespect intended, but I can't believe anyone wins 95% of the time on Deity. Or is BTS that much easier of a game than Vanilla? (I have heard that BTS is easier to win but haven't played it)

 

[BLtheKid]

Playing a game right now where I already met all of the other 7 Civs at 1200 BC (not sure if I've ever had that happen so early). Four separate religions already out there so will probably get a good number of them - but will I be able to survive is another story.

 

[unas876]

But I'll be honest, the jump from immortal to deity is by far the biggest and most people are fairly comfortable winning on immortal before they make the jump.

This is very true. I don't believe there is a map that I wouldn't be able to win on Immortal, if my first goal was to win the game and not do goofy/experimental stuff. Winning Deity is a different story though. The jump from Emperor to Immortal is nothing compared to this. Not even vaguely close. I think if you wanna try Deity you should be winning 100% of Immortal games to stand a chance.

That you're playing vanilla instead of BtS is gonna complicate things in terms of the advice you're gonna get on this forum. I knew Cathy has different traits in vanilla than in BtS. Upon looking it up I'm seeing FIN and CRE. That is an unreal trait combo. You can win any way you want with that trait combo. I mean, obviously even with Tokugawa (worst leader in most peoples opinion I guess) you can win any way you want if you're good enough, but Cathys traits really give you a huge boost there. FIN is great for fast starts and so is CRE, and its all about the start in Civ4 because early advantages snowball throughout the game.

Easiest is probably cultural victory (except AP-cheese) since you can be behind in research and lack production but still win

I wouldn't necessarily agree with this, since there are many maps where that is not possible. Sure on some maps you don't need to do much and any scrub could win culture, but it can be very hard to impossible on others.
You just need to look at what the map generator generated to choose a victory condition. If you want help in detail, again, make a playthrough topic.

And btw: There was a topic recently about a game where a player (WastinTime I think) won a space race in the BCs on Deity. Marathon speed, but still. So there are plenty of players who can win 95% of games on Deity

 

[BLtheKid]

I'd love to see someone win with my parameters. I don't doubt what is being said but would have to see it to believe it, I guess. I'd spend all day watching someone play just to see it for myself...

The Vanilla vs BTS thing does make it difficult though - I play Vanilla because I got the game before BTS came out and never "upgraded".

 

[lymond]

You can get Civ IV Complete off of GOG for $7.50 right now.

https://www.gog.com/game/sid_meiers_civilization_iv_the_complete_edition

It is definitely worth playing BTS as the ultimate version of IV. Plus, you have access to mods like BUG or BAT to improve the UI.

BTS adds a lot of new stuff, but also alters and improves some of the core mechanics that were more limiting in Warlords and Vanilla. Warlords is not all that different than Vanilla, but interestingly even harder on the higher levels.

A few things of note:

1) better conversion of hammers to wealth or research, or culture
2) they reduced the outrageous impact of war weariness..it's still there and still a factor, but you cities don't receive -20 unhappiness from just a couple of turns of war
3) siege does not melee kill...actually one of the easier aspects of vanilla/warlords, but not very realistic
4) New units, civs, wonders, and techs
5) A big one - no anarchy when in Golden Ages and boosted great person production.
6) Espionage - can be used passively or aggressively, or even as an alternate economy
7) Great Generals (introduced in Warlords) - really fun feature that can be used many ways. Access to promos not available otherwise. Can create Super-Medics
8) Unique Buildings (I think this was introduced in Warlords as well) / Some unique units in vanilla have been altered a bit
9) Woodsman III promo introduced which has both attack and medic bonuses..interesting option for creating super-medics (medic bonus additive to normal medic promo bonuses)
10) Space Race victory is not Space Colony. Game does not just end when parts are built. Parts are added to graphic of a space ship, which must be launched and reach Alpha Centauri successfully to win (10 turns on normal with all parts built)
11) Apostolic Palace mechanics, including a Religious Diplomatic Victory option when/if wonder is built. AP religion provides hammer bonus to buildings of that religion.

-probably a lot of other stuff I'm missing

Most mods are made for BTS, and some nice mods like BUG or BAT that don't change gameplay. Or the BUFFY mod for HOF and GOTM play here.

Overall, BTS just has more balance. It's really the reason Civ IV is one of the greatest games of all time.


On another note more germane to OP, not sure many folks can really answer the question you pose with respect to winning on Vanilla. No one really plays it. Although the GOTM team does still put out a vanilla GOTM now and then. I play them, but have never really been all that good at it, since I learned the game on BTS years ago. I get by, but it is always a shock going back to play vanilla or warlords.

You can check the CFC HOF page and filter a search on like parameters - and vanilla expansion - to see how old players did with vanilla. There were some excellent players back in the day that have some amazing results. Although I should caveat that generally players try to roll what is classified as "HOF starts", although I don't know if they did that as much back in the day.

http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ4/

Anyway, I highly recommend getting the full game, like on GOG for cheap, and experiencing BTS.

 

[Anysense]

What other type of victory would you suggest with Catherine? Off the top of head Space Race would seem to be the only other possibility. She has the Cossack UU but by the time that comes up, I'd have to think other Civs military is powerful enough to prevent much from happening. Could Catherine possibly tech fast enough (and it would seem the only way to do so would be to have a limited number of cities) to have a chance in a Space Race game?

Cossacks are so overpowered in vanilla that domination with Catherine is almost as cheese as AP or culture. They come as early as cuirassiers but are a lot stronger. There is simply no unit of their era that can stop them, even rifles are a pushover for vanilla cossacks. They even got nerfed in Warlords, still good UU though.
As to space race, I don't see what can stop Cathy teching fast enough. She has a good combination of traits for early game and that is where the game usually is decided. Even if you fail in the beginning (tough start, bad luck etc.) and get boxed in/outteched cosssacs quite often can fix it.
I gather that when it comes to fighting you are almost always a victim. You seem to have wrong attitude to fighting and lack combat skills. That is a major problem when you get to deity. You see, normally you can't outexpand deity AI, not even with Cathy. Therefore you have to take some really good land by force, if you want to win space.

 

[Windsor]

Cossacks are so overpowered in vanilla that domination with Catherine is almost as cheese as AP or culture. They come as early as cuirassiers but are a lot stronger. There is simply no unit of their era that can stop them, even rifles are a pushover for vanilla cossacks. They even got nerfed in Warlords, still good UU though.

They're nerfed in vanilla too, so only 15 and not the ridiculous 18 they where on release.

 

[Anysense]

They're nerfed in vanilla too, so only 15 and not the ridiculous 18 they where on release.

I must have played a rather old version then. It's properly updated in GOG's complete edition but I've only played warlords and BTS since I got it. Btw in vanilla Cahty is cre/fin instead of cre/imp, which only makes her stronger.

 

[BLtheKid]

Cossacks are so overpowered in vanilla that domination with Catherine is almost as cheese as AP or culture. They come as early as cuirassiers but are a lot stronger. There is simply no unit of their era that can stop them, even rifles are a pushover for vanilla cossacks. They even got nerfed in Warlords, still good UU though.
As to space race, I don't see what can stop Cathy teching fast enough. She has a good combination of traits for early game and that is where the game usually is decided. Even if you fail in the beginning (tough start, bad luck etc.) and get boxed in/outteched cosssacs quite often can fix it.
I gather that when it comes to fighting you are almost always a victim. You seem to have wrong attitude to fighting and lack combat skills. That is a major problem when you get to deity. You see, normally you can't outexpand deity AI, not even with Cathy. Therefore you have to take some really good land by force, if you want to win space.

Hmm - OK, I am going to give up on trying for a cultural victory and see what I can do via Cossacks/Space Race/Domination. I didn't think it was possible to win via the latter but I'll see what I can do.

 

[Fippy]

You should take Lymond's advice there, and get BTS

Vanilla had it's own charm on deity (but not so much on other diff. levels imo), it was hmm..wilder, AIs would settle thru your borders and some other headaches which made deity (even) more difficult imo.

But BTS offers so much more overall. If looking for tougher deity there's k-mod or warlords still.

I would add that Cathy is not really great for cultural, creative is actually not one of the better traits here.
Fin for better culture slider, Ind for the very helpful wonders or imo esp. Phi for more artist bombs are all better.
I certainly would not expect to win all culture games with Cathy on deity.
Hmm i just remembered, it's vanilla..does she have the same traits?

 

[BLtheKid]

I knew Lymond was going to chime in with the BTS recommendation.
Lymond bought BTS first and thus never got into Vanilla - my situation is the reverse (BTS wasn't out yet when I bought in).
From what I've read Deity is harder on Vanilla than BTS.
Anyway, I actually played this back in 2006 or 2007 for four or five months and won as far as Emperor - couldn't win on Immortal and set the game aside.
Actually deleted the game from my computer as well but bought it back on January 1 this year (I never liked what I read about Civ 5 or 6).
This time around, I did manage to win on Immortal and playing Deity for the first time. I'm probably slightly better as a player and the settings are more fair (I used to check Aggressive AI and maybe even Raging Barbarians, can't remember on that).
Now that I am finally shifting my Catherine focus from trying to win with Culture to going on the offensive instead, I just started a game and I've met 5 of the other 7 Civs already in the year 3640 BC (can't believe this isn't some kind of record on a standard map). And good ole Frederick has already settled right through the border of Moscow.
Yes, Catherine has Fin/Cre on Vanilla.
The definite downside of Vanilla is very few play it - I haven't been able to find one example of someone playing Catherine on Deity (whether here or on YouTube) and winning, although there are many examples of other leaders.

 

[lymond]

Lymond bought BTS first and thus never got into Vanilla - my situation is the reverse (BTS wasn't out yet when I bought in).

lol..i"m not sure what that has to do with anything. Actually, I first bought Civ IV and Warlords together. (BTS I think had just come out around that time, and I did not know squat about diddly), so really Warlords was the first thing a played. I've played many games of Vanilla and Warlords, and still play the GOTMs and WOTMs to this day. I know a lot about each version.

I just offered a recommendation, as did others. There's a reason everyone plays BTS, and there's a reason that final expansion made Civ IV one of the greatest games ever. It's not even just about what it adds, but also polish and balance. What baffles me is your resistance to try BTS. If I read correctly, you just bought Vanilla somehow a few months ago. Why did you not buy the Complete Edition instead? I'd be surprised if you did not actually pay more a copy of vanilla than a sale version of Complete online.

Plus, with BTS you can participate in so many more things around here on the forum.

Anyway, neither here nor there to me. You do what you want. But I am curious as to why you so easily shrug off getting the ultimate version of the game.

lol..BTS is the reason so many of us here have played the game 10 years strong, as opposed to a few months back in 2006

 

[BLtheKid]

Not being critical of you or others recommending, not at all. I already knew I liked Vanilla, so I just rebought it. I'll take your word for it that BTS is better.

Personally, I'll play a game until I reach a certain level of achievement and then I move on to something else.

Kind of a been there, done that kind of thing. But, everyone's different.

 

[lymond]

oh ..wasn't saying that ..ha. I think as Civ IV fans, we just want you to get the most out of the game, and...honestly... get hooked. I understand what you are saying but I think this genre is very unique from the standpoint of "been there/done that". That certainly applies to most other types of games I play. This game just has so much to offer and so much to learn, plus the community can provide you so may way of playing it.

When I first started playing, circa 2007, I knew nothing of CFC as I tooled around playing scenarios (poorly) in Warlords. Burned out pretty quick and stopped playing for over a year. I honestly can't remember why I fired it up later - I think I probably saw a BTS box on sale somewhere and picked it up. Googled for some advice to get back into it and found CFC..rest is history.

 

[BLtheKid]

Well, at some point maybe we have too much of a good thing. Even now, I've been annoyed trying to win at Deity and right this minute I'm playing another game and might end up spending half the day on it. How many days a week to you spend playing this yourself, even after all these years?

 

[BLtheKid]

Cossacks are so overpowered in vanilla that domination with Catherine is almost as cheese as AP or culture. They come as early as cuirassiers but are a lot stronger. There is simply no unit of their era that can stop them, even rifles are a pushover for vanilla cossacks. They even got nerfed in Warlords, still good UU though.
As to space race, I don't see what can stop Cathy teching fast enough. She has a good combination of traits for early game and that is where the game usually is decided. Even if you fail in the beginning (tough start, bad luck etc.) and get boxed in/outteched cosssacs quite often can fix it.
I gather that when it comes to fighting you are almost always a victim. You seem to have wrong attitude to fighting and lack combat skills. That is a major problem when you get to deity. You see, normally you can't outexpand deity AI, not even with Cathy. Therefore you have to take some really good land by force, if you want to win space.

I've read where Cossacks (in Vanilla) were once 18 and then got downgraded to 15 (which is what I'm playing with). I'm really wondering how anyone would win Vanilla Deity - just had a game where I met all 7 other AIs were before 3100BC and was still able to get 4 cities. I even had the next weakest Civ (who also had only 4 cities, with one completely isolated) right next to me, waiting to be taken but even though I did get cottages going, I was always behind in the tech race and Frederick still always had superior units to mine.

When I finally did get to Cossacks, I could see that I might be able to take these two cities and go from there but it was pointless because I was that much further behind in tech as Mansa Musa built the Apollo Program at the same time.

Cossacks might be strong but it seems to me they come too late in a Deity game to really take advantage of.