Firaxis and the Gross Misrepresentation of Non-Western History?

Also, those Chinese fiction are not meant to be true "historical fiction"; they're classified as wuxia fiction, which greatly uses fantastical elements or the typical martial arts master characters. Real Chinese "historical fiction" would be movies like "The Emperor's Shadow" or the "Emperor and the Asssassin," which focus more on the historical background and figures and leave out exaggerated martial arts or romanticized knight-errant ideals.

THe Romance of the Three Kingdoms, arguably one of THE best Chinese novels, if not the actual best one, is based on much historical fact; however, there is many elements of magic, romanticization, and bias; one early chinese scholar said the book was "three parts truth seven parts fiction" - but i myself consider it a very good historical fiction-non-fiction novel...
 
Seems to me the same question came up in reference to Xerxes in the movie '300'. Strikes me more of a Hollywood image than a real one.

the real Cleopatra would also probably be more caucasoid, because she was Macedonian by blood, even with the sun tan...
 
I think a lot of people should read the "History of Civilization" article on the front page. Sid basically admits that the game was originally written for a Western audience, with a Cold War flavor.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=5700471&postcount=5

The rest of his quotes about cold war atmosphere.
"And the game-playing world was much more an American world in those days; today it's much more of a global audience. PC games were played mostly in Western countries. So I think Civilization had somewhat of a Western-centric view of the world. "
"We tried to include more female leaders in later games. We tried to include more third world, Eastern, or less familiar leaders in other games, and to include more civilizations from around the world. We did include a bigger variety of civilizations and peoples as we expanded it."

He also said he didn't research much of the history of the original Civilization, and that it was common knowledge (or as he put it, stuff you could find in a children's books).
 
the real Cleopatra would also probably be more caucasoid, because she was Macedonian by blood, even with the sun tan...
Ancient Egyptians didn't usually have black skin, especially often the ruling dynasty, ESPECIALLY a Hellenistic dynasty like the Ptolemys.
 
the real Cleopatra would also probably be more caucasoid, because she was Macedonian by blood, even with the sun tan...

I was actually just considering the outfit itself. While never having seen the movie '300', the previews I've seen of with Xerxes in them portray him wearing nothing similar to what is depicted in existing statues of him. Hollywood likes to throw the sex appeal angle into movies to get people to buy tickets when they could otherwise care less about the battle of Thermopylae.
 
Ancient Egyptians didn't usually have black skin, especially often the ruling dynasty, ESPECIALLY a Hellenistic dynasty like the Ptolemys.

the skin color of Egyptians is subject to a lengthy, pointless, and patehtic debate that i've seen in the forums when i have come here, so i won't bother to go into describing it. however, you are right. a Hellenistic dynasty that inbred for eight generations - Cleopatra may have gotten a decent tan, but certainly her features don't look very caucasoid.


Hollywood likes to throw the sex appeal angle into movies to get people to buy tickets when they could otherwise care less about the battle of Thermopylae.

well, Hollywood and Civ are slightly similar, then...
 
THe Romance of the Three Kingdoms, arguably one of THE best Chinese novels, if not the actual best one, is based on much historical fact; however, there is many elements of magic, romanticization, and bias; one early chinese scholar said the book was "three parts truth seven parts fiction" - but i myself consider it a very good historical fiction-non-fiction novel...

Romance of 3 Kingdoms can be said to be a real "historical fiction". Wuxia is not even "historical".
 
Romance of 3 Kingdoms can be said to be a real "historical fiction". Wuxia is not even "historical".

in other words, ladies and gentlemen, The ROmance of the Three Kingdoms is a fictional nonfiction historical epic.
 
in other words, ladies and gentlemen, The ROmance of the Three Kingdoms is a fictional nonfiction historical epic.
And luckily, many of the historical sources are still with us too. The novel is a good read though, for those of you who haven't read it. It was hard on the eyes, but that's because I borrowed mine from Yale and it was in Wade-Giles translation(of the names.) That translation system hurts my eyes....

And of course Cleo didn't look much like that. She actually had a big nose and a very prominent chin, and she was ethnically Makedonian, so just picture her as looking something like a modern Greek. She could probably be fairly dark with a little tan, but that's exactly the sort of thing women back then avoided(made them look like common farmers, you see. Pale skin marked you as a woman of nobility because it showed that you didn't have to work outside:lol:) It wasn't so much her physical beauty as the woman herself who enchanted, we are told....

Oh, and another big reason the CCP won is because the KMT was riddled with moles. The CCP(in large part thanks to Mao's ultra-repressive rule), on the other hand, was literally free of spies in high places(only a handful in the rank-and-file, I'd wager), whereas some of Jiang's highest ranking generals were in the CCP's pocket.
 
Oh, and another big reason the CCP won is because the KMT was riddled with moles. The CCP(in large part thanks to Mao's ultra-repressive rule), on the other hand, was literally free of spies in high places(only a handful in the rank-and-file, I'd wager), whereas some of Jiang's highest ranking generals were in the CCP's pocket.

The CCP was wildly popular with the peasants and workers (meaning the Chinese), while the KMT was repressive, totalitarian and corrupt. The Communists won because of popular mandate.
 
And of course Cleo didn't look much like that. She actually had a big nose and a very prominent chin, .

Interesting. In ancient China there is a superstition about telling people's personality and fate based on the facial features (like reading palm). Big nose means possessive and prominent chin means desire for power and love for manipulation. This is the type of women a man better avoid.... maybe the superstition is not totally without ground :crazyeye:
 
vicawoo:

I'm not entirely sure what you mean. The data you've presented argues in my favor, and even then I have my doubts about the veracity of your population sources, being probably Western.

Definitely, the Chinese and Indian histories are being grossly misrepresented in terms of technological and philosophical advance, as well as in leader and civ representations. I didn't need to look at population data to know that.
 
I agree that Civ picks leaders because that are familiar to the West, but mostly disagree that this is a problem. Part of the appeal of Civ, for a lot of people, comes not from its historical accuracy but from the bizarre juxtaposition of familiar figures and societies. This depends on some amount of knowledge about the people and places depicted. For example:

--What if Sitting Bull and Queen Elizabeth clashed with Ramses at the battle of Tokyo in a battle to gain control of the Eiffel Tower and spread Islam throughout the New World, but their plans were foiled by the head of the United Nations (Montezuma)?

Civ is not history. It's a kind of fish-out-of-water comedy that pokes fun at real situations. This is after all a game where the repercussions of slavery are a minor reduction in production and a temporary frownie face. Nuking the enemy is treated with all the gravity of declining to teach a guy Horseback Riding.

Humor is hard to translate. Saturday Night Live can make allusions to Michael Jackson and Britney Spears because we are familiar with those people and what they represent. We might say they are freaks or fakes with no talent but it is really beside the point. They are more commodifiable (a requirement for this kind of comic effect) than say, Sarah Brightman, an infinitely more talented singer with about zero pop cultural appeal. And, IMO, Civ IV is all about history as pop culture.

Mansa Musa. George Washington. Queen Victoria. Montezuma. Hammurabi. Hapshetsut. Stalin. Ghandi(!) And yes, Mao Zedong. All part of a schlocky, psuedo-historical Western pop culture. So, yes, the game is profoundly Western, but I don't think that should be surprising. Some humor just doesn't translate well.

Lastly, I'd like to point out that for all the "errors" that supposedly exist for Eastern civilizations, there are vast "mistakes" made about the Americans civ itself. Discounting the absurdity of the USA existing in 4000 BC for a moment, you might notice that many American city names should actually belong to a different civ--Los Angeles, San Francisco, New Orleans, all originally cities of foreign empires that eventually made their way into American hands. Are there "gross errors" in historical acumen here or was the game not meant to be a literal version of history?

And, BTW, I suspect Wang Kon was picked over other Korean leaders because he looked cool to animate. Not that other Korean leaders wouldn't look cool, but you have to admit they did an awesome job with Wang.
 
Lastly, I'd like to point out that for all the "errors" that supposedly exist for Eastern civilizations, there are vast "mistakes" made about the Americans civ itself. Discounting the absurdity of the USA existing in 4000 BC for a moment, you might notice that many American city names should actually belong to a different civ--Los Angeles, San Francisco, New Orleans, all originally cities of foreign empires that eventually made their way into American hands.

Yeah, that always bothered me. American cities should only be named after the ones in the original Thirteen Colonies. America was a small nation when it declared independence, but then it expanded through conquest, much like in CIV.
 
I don't even know why Korea is in the game in the first place. Yeah, I'm kinda ignorant, can someone tell me why?
 
Saim said:
I don't even know why Korea is in the game in the first place. Yeah, I'm kinda ignorant, can someone tell me why?

Another one of these ignorant "why-is-korea-in-the-game" questions, hm? :rolleyes: There was a thread around here discussing why Korea deserves its spot in Civ4. I'm NOT going to waste time posting paragraphs on the thousands of years of Korean history when no one even bothers reading in the first place. ;) Just search "Why is Korea in the game."

And before certain parties use the weak "money talks" argument, it should be noted that Civilization IV is not popular in Korea nor are legal copies even sold here on a large scale.
 
Top Bottom