Fire ideas

[warrenlynch]

I guess this thread is for people like me who have ideas for fire before it actually comes out. Maybe these have been implemented already but:

-Is there a plan to make the Malakim more unique at all? At this point they are somewhat bland...
-Is there any plan to give the unique units more uniqueness? Besides being the same unit with different art? If you are going to bother with different art, you may as well add in a +20% vs recon here and a -20% vs fire there for all the semi-unique units like malakim swordsman, sect of flies etc.
-Can we have a flying unit which does something besides recon? Like the griffin say? Or how about a Roc? Like and maybe it could only get carried by beastmen or air wizards, or it otherwise has to be based at a peak? Or small dragons?
-a degree of the strategy is lost in FFH with the loss of big differences in unit types. In regular civ there are a lot of units which are really good against certain things but really weak against others, which leads to a lot of diverse strategy, as opposed to the "stack all your units in one big pile and hope for the best" strat. I recommend giving some units like a +50% vs melee or a +50% vs recon or archery or what have you right off the bat. And more non melee units. To diversify units more. Right now the only unit with such a big unit type bonus is the pikeman vs mounted units, the mounted somewhat meaningless +25% vs archers, and some melee units getting +25% against each other. And a bonus vs recon should be more attainable with these mega wizards and druids and whatnot. Generally in FFH the bonuses end up being against a particular opponent (dwarf slaying, vs holy, vs mounted since theyre only worth it for the hippus anymore, etc) or against basically everybody (vs melee), or basically another form of city attack bonus (vs archery), or just total overkill (vs arcane or disciple)
-Is it me or do spellcasters no longer get 1 xp/turn? If not, how do I ever upgrade them?
-Is it me, or is building spellcasters generally just a losing strategy as they are hard to keep from dying, take forever to upgrade, yet cost highly in resources and tech?
-a way to resurrect heroes besides barnaxus would be cool. Once my civ hero dies irrevocably, the game gets somewhat more boring. And for religious heroes it would be neat to see Bambur etc get rebuilt by a different civ after he dies...

 

[grumpylad]

Hiya,
Thanks for your post you raise a number of points you might want to have a look at the wiki will answers quite a few of your queries at http://civ4wiki.com/wiki/index.php/Fall_from_Heaven_II

For instance spell casters still gain xp (although not 1 per turn unless a hero) have a look at a couple of discussions on here about how powerful high level mages are http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=207197

I'd also recommend using SureShots modette which adds a still more depth to an excellent mod, as well as a couple of new wonders.

 

[Chip56]

-Is it me or do spellcasters no longer get 1 xp/turn? If not, how do I ever upgrade them?

Thats only a %chance to get 1xp, depending on current xp and type of unit.
Archmages have a higher chance then adepts, lower xp has a higher chance

Is it me, or is building spellcasters generally just a losing strategy as they are hard to keep from dying, take forever to upgrade, yet cost highly in resources and tech?

Of course you shouldn't send them without guards and some cannon fooder.
Then they will rule the world.

a way to resurrect heroes besides barnaxus would be cool. Once my civ hero dies irrevocably, the game gets somewhat more boring. And for religious heroes it would be neat to see Bambur etc get rebuilt by a different civ after he dies...

Archmage + life 3

 

[Sureshot]

about the bonus versus unit types, that would be nice, and also having it inherent instead of promotion for horseman, so that they can gain the promotions afterwards for a greater effect as well

 

[xanaqui42]

-Is there any plan to give the unique units more uniqueness? Besides being the same unit with different art? If you are going to bother with different art, you may as well add in a +20% vs recon here and a -20% vs fire there for all the semi-unique units like malakim swordsman, sect of flies etc.

Some are, others aren't. Taking your examples, Sect of Flies has the promotion Demon, which in Light, changes various combat effects against it, and allows it to gain the Fear Promotion.
Malakim Swordsman are the same as its base unit, but Malakim Units gain Nomad.

-Can we have a flying unit which does something besides recon? Like the griffin say? Or how about a Roc? Like and maybe it could only get carried by beastmen or air wizards, or it otherwise has to be based at a peak? Or small dragons?

You can argue that a number of units fly, like Abashi, or Air Elemental. They use the Helicopter-type mechanic, though, not the Fighter/Bomber mechanic that the Birds use.

-a degree of the strategy is lost in FFH with the loss of big differences in unit types. In regular civ there are a lot of units which are really good against certain things but really weak against others, which leads to a lot of diverse strategy, as opposed to the "stack all your units in one big pile and hope for the best" strat. I recommend giving some units like a +50% vs melee or a +50% vs recon or archery or what have you right off the bat. And more non melee units. To diversify units more. Right now the only unit with such a big unit type bonus is the pikeman vs mounted units, the mounted somewhat meaningless +25% vs archers, and some melee units getting +25% against each other. And a bonus vs recon should be more attainable with these mega wizards and druids and whatnot. Generally in FFH the bonuses end up being against a particular opponent (dwarf slaying, vs holy, vs mounted since theyre only worth it for the hippus anymore, etc) or against basically everybody (vs melee), or basically another form of city attack bonus (vs archery), or just total overkill (vs arcane or disciple)

You are correct that there are relatively few units which gain bonuses based on class. I'm under-convinced that base bonuses against specific classes helps the game a lot; I tend to diversify units through choosing different promotion paths at first, and late in the game, the units are pretty diverse anyway. The Tech tree in this game being far broader would also make such a triangular-type philosophy harder for the AI to cope with. I should also note that some disciple units have rather high strength.

I'm not clear what you mean by "more non melee units". Relatively few units are Melee units.

-Is it me or do spellcasters no longer get 1 xp/turn? If not, how do I ever upgrade them?

The present alogrithm is here. Note that a few "Hero" units do also gain 1 XP/turn via Hero; You'd notice this in particular if you were playing with Grigori Adventurers.

-Is it me, or is building spellcasters generally just a losing strategy as they are hard to keep from dying, take forever to upgrade, yet cost highly in resources and tech?

If you're playing the Khazad, then you're correct. You want few (or no) Adepts. On the other hand a couple units that can Cast Summon Balor or Meteor Swarm can often take out cities by themselves. Here is an example of a powerful spellcaster strategy.

-a way to resurrect heroes besides barnaxus would be cool. Once my civ hero dies irrevocably, the game gets somewhat more boring.

See the spell Resurrection.

 

[xanaqui42]

about the bonus versus unit types, that would be nice, and also having it inherent instead of promotion for horseman, so that they can gain the promotions afterwards for a greater effect as well

You can try this out in your own mod, if you like. the tag is UnitCombatMods; see UNIT_ELVEN_PIKEMAN as an example of use:

Spoiler :

            <UnitCombatMods>
                <UnitCombatMod>
                    <UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_MOUNTED</UnitCombatType>
                    <iUnitCombatMod>50</iUnitCombatMod>
                </UnitCombatMod>
            </UnitCombatMods>

UnitCombatMods is a list, so you should be able to give different modifiers to any number of UNITCOMBAT elements, like this:

Spoiler :

            <UnitCombatMods>
                <UnitCombatMod>
                    <UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_MOUNTED</UnitCombatType>
                    <iUnitCombatMod>50</iUnitCombatMod>
                </UnitCombatMod>
                <UnitCombatMod>
                    <UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_RECON</UnitCombatType>
                    <iUnitCombatMod>-50</iUnitCombatMod>
                </UnitCombatMod>
            </UnitCombatMods>

 

[Sureshot]

ya i know heh, just thinkin of the main mod

 

[Kael]

I guess this thread is for people like me who have ideas for fire before it actually comes out. Maybe these have been implemented already but:

-Is there a plan to make the Malakim more unique at all? At this point they are somewhat bland...

The Malakim are set to be covered in the "Shadow" phase.

-Is there any plan to give the unique units more uniqueness? Besides being the same unit with different art? If you are going to bother with different art, you may as well add in a +20% vs recon here and a -20% vs fire there for all the semi-unique units like malakim swordsman, sect of flies etc.

No. In fact I would argue that making them different just to make them different is a negative. Just gives the player more to track without any real benifit. Better that they are mechanically the same with cool art.

-Can we have a flying unit which does something besides recon? Like the griffin say? Or how about a Roc? Like and maybe it could only get carried by beastmen or air wizards, or it otherwise has to be based at a peak? Or small dragons?

Thats a hard question. It all depends on what you mean by flying. For some people it means they have a flat movement cost (which the griffon has), for some people it means they can pass over water and have a flat movement cost (which fireballs and meteors have), and for some people it just means that the unit graphic looks to be flying.

The problem is that the definition I have for flying requires quite a bit more than any of this and is going to take some serious coding. Because of that we haven't come out and said that X unit can "fly". But it may be worthwile to create a temporary flying ability which just allows flat movement costs and passing over peaks.

-a degree of the strategy is lost in FFH with the loss of big differences in unit types. In regular civ there are a lot of units which are really good against certain things but really weak against others, which leads to a lot of diverse strategy, as opposed to the "stack all your units in one big pile and hope for the best" strat. I recommend giving some units like a +50% vs melee or a +50% vs recon or archery or what have you right off the bat. And more non melee units. To diversify units more. Right now the only unit with such a big unit type bonus is the pikeman vs mounted units, the mounted somewhat meaningless +25% vs archers, and some melee units getting +25% against each other. And a bonus vs recon should be more attainable with these mega wizards and druids and whatnot. Generally in FFH the bonuses end up being against a particular opponent (dwarf slaying, vs holy, vs mounted since theyre only worth it for the hippus anymore, etc) or against basically everybody (vs melee), or basically another form of city attack bonus (vs archery), or just total overkill (vs arcane or disciple)

Yeah, thats rock/paper/scissors design. Im honestly not a big fan of it, your right that it does add a level of strategy but that strategy is so basic thats it less about creating effective strategy's than simple action responce. There is no right answer about if rock/paper/scissors design is good or bad, a lot of games use it and some players prefer it. But it will probably never have a huge presense in FfH.

There will always be some units that are better against other types, but we dont make any effort to design in counters for each unit.

-Is it me or do spellcasters no longer get 1 xp/turn? If not, how do I ever upgrade them?

They still do.

-Is it me, or is building spellcasters generally just a losing strategy as they are hard to keep from dying, take forever to upgrade, yet cost highly in resources and tech?

No, spellcasters are one of the most powerful units in the game.

-a way to resurrect heroes besides barnaxus would be cool. Once my civ hero dies irrevocably, the game gets somewhat more boring. And for religious heroes it would be neat to see Bambur etc get rebuilt by a different civ after he dies...

You can ressurect any unit with the ressurection spell.

 

[Bad Player]

For what it's worth I don't like the scissors/paper/rock thing either.

 

[Adrogans]

It depends on my mood and the game if I like rock/paper/scissors design. Not so much with civ and especially FFH.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

Actually, on that subject, I've been wondering if Axmen should keep their bonus against melee. Without spearmen and swordsmen for them to whack, the only melee for their bonus to work against are other axemen, who also have the bonus, warriors, which only heightens the T1/T2 disparity, and religious melee, drown and kilmorphian soldiers.
Maybe the bonus should just be changed to a +10% vs cities.

 

[Kael]

Actually, on that subject, I've been wondering if Axmen should keep their bonus against melee. Without spearmen and swordsmen for them to whack, the only melee for their bonus to work against are other axemen, who also have the bonus, warriors, which only heightens the T1/T2 disparity, and religious melee, drown and kilmorphian soldiers.
Maybe the bonus should just be changed to a +10% vs cities.

Good point, I'll change it.

 

[warrenlynch]

Quote:
-Is there any plan to give the unique units more uniqueness? Besides being the same unit with different art? If you are going to bother with different art, you may as well add in a +20% vs recon here and a -20% vs fire there for all the semi-unique units like malakim swordsman, sect of flies etc.

No. In fact I would argue that making them different just to make them different is a negative. Just gives the player more to track without any real benifit. Better that they are mechanically the same with cool art.

I would respectfully argue otherwise. The fun of playing different civs is the unique units, not the different graphics. For example people love the Calabim and the Bannor and don't find them a lot to keep track of despite 3 or more units with minor quirks each. When you are playing a single civ, as opposed to say a hotseat game vs self, your 4 unique units having little "flavor powers" and weaknesses is not a big distraction at all, and only adds to the enjoyment. And to the flavor and depth of the game.

At least with 1 unit per civ... For example:

-malakim swordsman and knight gets +20% vs demons, undead and vampires but -40% vs cold
-malakim chariot, mage and immortal is "fanatical" and gets +40% vs any non-state religon unit but -50% vs same state religion units
-one elohim unit (not the monk) could be "fanatical", say.
-lanun hunter, ranger and assassin is "wet" and gets +20% vs fire but -20% vs electricity
-beastman and doviello axeman wear thick furry hides and get +20% vs cold
and -20% vs fire (flammable)
-amurite horseman, horse archers chariots etc are very flashy and well-made. This gives them +30% vs melee and other mounted units but -20% vs archers and recon and -50% vs fire as they are easy ranged targets covered in flashy flags and banners
-sheaim pyre zombie does +1 fire damage
-grigori medic gets a 20% chance to withdraw when attacked like Loki
-hippus brigand, and kuriotates centaur gets +25% vs recon units due to their alertness and swiftness countering the recon unit's stealthiness.
-merryman and acrobat are good at dodging (+30% vs archer) but wear bright colors and are not very stealthy (-10% vs recon)
-enforcer, guardsman and bannor longbowman are +30% vs unholy but -20% vs holy
-- we could probably make the various Ogre units be a "large target" with minus 30% vs archers and +25% vs melee say
-- goblins could have a sharp sense of smell that gives them +25% vs recon units and animals, and they are small which gives them +10% vs archers, but they are undisciplined which gives them a -30% vulnerability to disciple units and phalanxes
-- orcs (but not ogres or goblins) could be somewhat berserk giving them generally a +10% attack and -10% defend.
-- khazad cannon does +1 fire damage
-- dwarven slinger is +30% vs orcs goblins and giants but -30% vs mounted
-- elven archer, longbowman, hunter, ranger and archmage are +20% vs orcs goblins and dwarves but -50% vs other elven units which they are loath to attack.

 

[Kael]

I think there is a balance between the two opinions. I am perfectly fine with some distinctions when they make sense and they add a lot of flavor to the unit. I am not okay with adding things just to make them different. So its in the middle.

As we design we like to add special things to units to make them more fun, but we never set out to change units just to change them. Art is an attribute like any other, and we may change it without any other changes or change another attribute without changing it.

For example the Khzad don't get horcemen. Instead they get Boar Riders, its cool new art but it also made sense to reduce their movement and withdrawal rate a bit. So in that case we did both.

Likewise Malakim horseman is riding a zebra instead of a horse. It didn't make any sense to me to have it have different stats than the rest of the horsemen. We definitly could have justified a change, but why?

I do agree with you that the whole point of FfH is to make every civ play differently. I just dont know that we need to have every unit of every civ be different than all the rest for that to happen.

 

[drekmonger]

I would respectfully argue otherwise. The fun of playing different civs is the unique units, not the different graphics. \

Disagree. The fun of playing the different civs in FFH are the radically different mechanics. Keeping track of a 100 small changes (not to mention balancing them) would be a pain in the ass. Keeping track of a few really big changes is easier, and really big changes make for a different kind of game for each civ.


like this:

-lanun hunter, ranger and assassin is "wet" and gets +20% vs fire but -20% vs electricity

So what? It's an extra detail to keep in my head that doesn't make a big change to gameplay.

 

[warrenlynch]

I think there is a balance between the two opinions. I am perfectly fine with some distinctions when they make sense and they add a lot of flavor to the unit. I am not okay with adding things just to make them different. So its in the middle.

I do agree with you that the whole point of FfH is to make every civ play differently. I just dont know that we need to have every unit of every civ be different than all the rest for that to happen.

Right, not every unit or even half of units. I was thinking just some of the ones which already have their own mechanic based on what they upgrade to, and their own graphic, and for which the flavor makes sense.

Right now civs like the Calabim and Luchuirp have a lot of flavor units with complex mechanics to go with them, while the other civs have really cool graphics variations that I think could use some really simple mechanic tweeks to go with them like the Boar Rider has.

Especially in terms of bonuses or weaknesses vs the unit types, because that adds to the strategic variation and depth of the game without being an arbitrarily geometric rock-paper-scissors triangle. Like maybe the zebra is skittish, so it has a +15% withdrawal chance and -20% vs big scary ogres/giants/dragons and other mounted units. Is there an elven deer rider now? Maybe that's a better mechanic for the deer rider. Zebras are known to bite and be somewhat wild and unpredictable, so maybe they have +10% vs melee but -20% vs fire, cold and electricity which makes the zebras tend buck their riders...

And also having more units have bonuses or penalties vs recon would also help add to the depth and interest of the game now that there are lots of recon units, so would be good to combine with the picture-different units as well.

I just thought I'd throw out a lot of ideas. Maybe only half of these or 1/10th are viable but it might be neat to see some of them or variations thereon in fire 1.2 or something maybe. Do you like any of these?

-malakim swordsman and knight gets +20% vs demons, undead and vampires but -40% vs cold
-malakim chariot, mage and immortal is "fanatical" and gets +40% vs any non-state religon unit but -50% vs same state religion units
-one elohim unit (not the monk) could be "fanatical", say.
-lanun hunter, ranger and assassin is "wet" and gets +20% vs fire but -20% vs electricity
-beastman and doviello axeman wear thick furry hides and get +20% vs cold
and -20% vs fire (flammable)
-amurite horseman, horse archers chariots etc are very flashy and well-made. This gives them +30% vs melee and other mounted units but -20% vs archers and recon and -50% vs fire as they are easy ranged targets covered in flashy flags and banners
-sheaim pyre zombie does +1 fire damage
-grigori medic gets a 20% chance to withdraw when attacked like Loki
-hippus brigand, and kuriotates centaur gets +25% vs recon units due to their alertness and swiftness countering the recon unit's stealthiness.
-merryman and acrobat are good at dodging (+30% vs archer) but wear bright colors and are not very stealthy (-10% vs recon)
-enforcer, guardsman and bannor longbowman are +30% vs unholy but -20% vs holy
-- we could probably make the various Ogre units be a "large target" with minus 30% vs archers and +25% vs melee say
-- goblins could have a sharp sense of smell that gives them +25% vs recon units and animals, and they are small which gives them +10% vs archers, but they are undisciplined which gives them a -30% vulnerability to disciple units and phalanxes
-- orcs (but not ogres or goblins) could be somewhat berserk giving them generally a +10% attack and -10% defend.
-- khazad cannon does +1 fire damage
-- dwarven slinger is +30% vs orcs goblins and giants but -30% vs mounted
-- elven archer, longbowman, hunter, ranger and archmage are +20% vs orcs goblins and dwarves but -50% vs other elven units which they are loath to attack.

 

[Adrogans]

I agree that there need to be more units against recon, and a Khazad specific unit for seeing invis to solve that. I also like the cannon doe +1 fire damage. I like the hippus and centaur bonus against recon as well.

EDIT - Khazad Treasure Guard for instance

 

[BeefontheBone]

The only problem with the art is remembering which units are actually unique ones with extra abilities (like monks and firebows) and which just look snazzy