First 30 rounds on Deity--need optimal strategy

[spork]

OK, for you Deity players, surely you understand how important a good beginning is. As you start off, you have to make perfect decisions, or you "fall of the horse" as I like to say.

I imagine everyone builds a warrior first But then what? For the purpose of this, assume that your capital is on a river with several grassland-with-shield tiles available.

Assuming you can build a granary, is it worth doing that next? It takes a while, but it helps the city fire off settlers more quickly. Alternately, you could build a temple, so that your population limit increases. Or, you could build a barracks, so that your future warriors are veterans and upgrade to useful swordsmen. Or you could build another warrior, to make sure you don't go into disorder when the city hits pop3.

Anyway, I'm sure there have been theads about the optimal start strategy on Deity. I can't find them, though, so please fill me in.

Here's a start that worked our pretty well: Warrior, Warrior, Granary, Settler (wasted some growth here to prevent disorder), Temple, Settler, Barracks, Settler, then Warriors (and settlers in time to prevent pop hitting 5). Does anyone know a better start sequence?

 

[Smash]

Generally speaking,forget the granary.

I build warrior.If i have no units from huts,then that warrior goes out.Another one is built for garrison and then a settler.

Typically:
2 settlers on diety so 2 cities ASAP.
2 warriors for exploring,2 for garrison.
Then,each city builds 1 settler.

Then either,
a.both cities build another round of settlers
b.One continues with settlers while the best site builds another unit(usually warrior but maybe phalanx or horsemen) for garrison then start a wonder.

Units are part rushed whenever possible.Temples are not built until much later...much later..sometimes not at all.Many cities will have no infastructure until well into mid game and then markets will be first most times.The Gardens and later Michs will keep unrest under control until I decide(if i decide) to sweeten up cities abit.Generally,I only develop a select few cities for trading and rely on caravans/SSC to do the work.Its easier than managing a slew of fat cities.

 

[SlowThinker]

I tried to explain my thinking in the start of deity here: Campo Challenge 1

I must agree with Smash in everything except...

Originally posted by Smash
b.One continues with settlers while the best site builds another unit(usually warrior but maybe phalanx or horsemen) for garrison <b>then start a wonder.</b>

Isn't it too early?

 

[sethos]

Take Raging Hoardes as barbarian activity, so a caught barb leader will bring you 150 gold and at the end of the game it brings you 25 points.
If there's a goody hut, I'd open it first. There'll be no barbs in, but gold, a tech or a NONE-Unit that helps you to explore your neighborhood. Maybe I let my settler look for a good city site for some turns. A good site has at least 2 specials, better 3 o 4. When the firts settler founds the capitak, the second builds road on the shielded square (have a look at the city window), then build roads to the site of the 2nd (planned) city. The 2nd city is founded by the 2nd settler. The roads improve trade which influences science, that means: roads on shielded squares raise the number of beakers -> effect: the periods between inventing two techs will be shorter.
The first thing to buld is a defender (warrior, better phalanx), then a settler, then another defender. The next unit will be a cheap warrior to explore (or a horseman, if you've got horseback riding as a start tech). In the capital, I'll build only two settlers, one for expansion, one for terrain improvements (roads and mines - it's no use to irrigate in despotism). The capital (as I mentioned, it has a good site) will now begin to build a Wonder of the World (after building a temple), no matter what wonder. You can change it later, if needed. I would go for the Hanging Gardens, Colossus, Pyramids, Marco Polo's or Great Library, sometimes the Lighthouse if I'm on a small island.
All the other cities will build three or more settlers for expansion and terrain improvement (roads, irrigation, mines, improve swamps and jungle to grasland). Connect all your cities with roads and don't forget to explore.
Techs: Go straight for Monarchy, then straight for trade. Don't trade techs with the AI civs except you need them for Monarchy or trade. You can do that afterwards.
If you find an AI in your neighborhood, destroy it as soon as possible, or sooner or later it will destroy you.
All cities except the capital will build wonders (when there's no more room for expansion) to rush build WoW.
After having built a dozen cities or so the first citizien will riot.
Make him an entertainer. Your expansion will be slow during the first 3000 years, but don't worry.
After trade I'd go for the literacy stuff, then monotheism or invention. Mike's will fasten your expansion. And if you've got the hanging gardens, too ....
Try to bild Leonardo's, but in my opinion it isn't as much worth as Adam Smith's or J.S.Bach's, for example. Try to get the Statue of Liberty (a must have if for non-peaceful guys).
Another "must have" is Hoover Dam, without it you will be in a big trouble later (pollution).

 

[duke o' york]

This is not just for deity, but applies to any level.
First you have a look at where on the screen any specials and huts that your settlers can see are placed and then compare the world map with this plan to work out where the nearest specials and huts are to be found. Remember that you will not get huts in the sea but otherwise this is the pattern they always follow. Then use this to found your first cities in strong sites and to pop any nearby huts in the hope of grabbing some units for exploration and further hut-popping. This will give you a great chance to start with!

 

[Kev]

This type of answer depends so much on the syle of play that you like.

Mine is similar to Smash's. I try to expand as much and as quickly as possible. I'll usually follow some version of warrior (exploration)-settler-warrior(defense)-settler routine and then try to judge from there where I stand. Maybe another warrior (happiness) and then a wonder. Maybe another settler. Maybe the Colossus right away should I want this to be the SSC.

Gathering settlers keeps the cities smaller and helps to stem the tide of unhappiness. Think about this: would you rather have ten size "1" cities or one size "12" city? Well, in the first case, you'll actually have 20 workers - since the city site counts as a worker as well. Plus, you'll have claimed more territory, have more trade, etc.

I also usually won't start land improving for some time while I'm in "expansion mode". I want to get cities up right away. When I do start, it's almost all roads so I can get some extra trade ASAP.

I probably differ from Smash as I've not mastered the "no temple" technique so well. I also tend to go for wonders a bit earlier, and try to get the Colossus for my future SSC and the Hanging Gardens as priority on deity level. I know that they both eventually become obsolete, but they are invaluable help until they do.

The straight to Monarchy and then to Trade is always a good guideline. I do the same. From there, Monotheism for Mike's Chapel which is likely the most valuable wonder in a deity game. Then, I bide my time until I think I'm ready to go to a Republic and start celebrating and such.

Don't forget early trade routes, either. Routes established before 1 A.D. are worth more in the long run, so set them up quickly. When doing so, it doens't really matter so much this early that the city demands the commodity. Set them up for the trade arrows - they're what's important this early. And I try to trade with my own cities so each caravan will set up two routes.

I don't think that a "slight" mistake will doom you for the rest of the game - though some can put you at a major disadvantage. Getting your second settler killed by some hut barb is a real buzz kill.

 

[Tassadar]

a question for fast expender, how do you defend against barbarian archer with your warrior ? i try this method to expend fast and within a few turn ¸barbarian archer pop and even phalanx are defeat ( i lost a city ). i am able to win on deity but with 4-5 city and space race.

 

[JuicyCivNewbie]

Hmm... in the first post he was talking about upgrading warriors to swordsmen... sounds like civ3 to me.

 

[duke o' york]

Well spotted JCN - still, the info here should be very useful for all other players who need some help beginning at the harder levels.

Tassadar, I don't know if you're aware, but if you only have one city then it is impossible for a unit there to be defeated by barbs. Other civs, sure, but if you have a caravan in your only city then the barbs will lose to it with knights and artillery even.

 

[Tassadar]

Originally posted by duke o' york
Well spotted JCN - still, the info here should be very useful for all other players who need some help beginning at the harder levels.

Tassadar, I don't know if you're aware, but if you only have one city then it is impossible for a unit there to be defeated by barbs. Other civs, sure, but if you have a caravan in your only city then the barbs will lose to it with knights and artillery even.

i didnt play a lot of deeity game but some, and after i built my second or third city, i am facing hord of barbarian and loose this third city or a.i came in and build a city very close to me so fast succesfull expension on deity is a luck in my opinion. so i think it s better to be small, strong and built city improvement.

 

[cliff]

If you expand rapidly at the start it is normal to lose one or two cities to barbarians. That isn't a big problem; if the city is destroyed - found a new city on the ruins of the old one, if it is captured - bribe it back with a diplomat later. If a barbarian archer is running around and threatening your cities and settlers, the best way to get rid of it is to attack it or bribe it. Don't wait for the barbarians to attack your warriors or phalanxes unless fortified on good defensive terrain.

When it comes to the ai, I like to have peace with them or even ally with them early in the game if they are close to you. That way you can build around them. Others like to wipe them out as fast as possible and that's a good strategy too. A poor strategy would be to start a half-hearted long lasting war with them.

 

[Old n Slow]

The problem with the bab archer is ususally before one has dips to work with. In fact, with the Alpha-CB-BW-Code-Monarchy tech path, this problem can linger for a while. My solution at that stage is to run (slowly with a warrior), preferably away from my cities (lure him away). Another solution -- post another warrior in the path on defensive terrain -- he'll die, but the now wounded archer can then fail with the followup city assault.

But then again I still lose cities to babs.

I suppose that it is back to the old statistical Type I vs. Type II error -- if I don't lose a few cities to babs, I'm playing too conservatively.

 

[duke o' york]

If you worry about barbarian attacks on Deity then you might like to consider the Great Wall. Deity gives barbarian units a huge advantage over yours so vet units become even more important. On Chieftain, you have a large advantage over barbs but as the levels go up they become stronger in relation to your troops. I'm not able to recall the exact figures at the moment but someone'll help you I'm sure. The Great Wall will put the odds firmly in your favour on all levels, but on the lower levels this does not make as much difference as you are already better than the barbs. In the early game the 150g bonus for barb leaders can be vital in shoring up your enormous research expenses, but don't forget that the barbs will not pose any kind of long-term threat to your civ whereas the other civs will so it's best to grab as much land as you can before they encroach on your terriory so you have a better base for your research and production. A barb city will only build units and are incredibly cheap to bribe so don't be too disheartened if they take a couple of yours and concentrate on expanding your borders to take full advantage of the land you have.

 

[Ace]

Don't forget that at the diety level, barb archers only defend with a one. (there is a thread on this somewhere, but I don't remember where..). The best way to deal with the barb archer is to attack him (as long as he is not fortifed, or on good defensive terrain) first. even a warrior has a decent chance to kill the barb archer by attacking, but it has no chance on defense. by attacking, the worst that can happen is you lose your warrior, the barb occupies your city and you bribe a few non units >). and if your wait for the barb archer to attack, you WILL lose, so go for it.

 

[starlifter]

Keeping in mind I'm not the fastest starter, I generally make a settler with the capital, a warrior if necessary, the begin a wonder, switching to Colossus with BW. I want 2 wonders before the AI has one. All other cities support the wonder citie(s) as necessary. With 4 cities or so, a 2nd wonder is started. The Capital gets its temple rushed, and goes right into another wonder.

The end result of putting early resources into wonders and roads does cause a slowdown in expansion. It seems to be about a 30% city deficit compared to games such as Smash's or Cactus Pete's at about 1 AD, judging by some past GOTM results. But mine are bigger and churning out shields in good multiples for caravan production (7/8, 10, 13, 17) and my roads allow me to trap almost all barb leaders who wander into my territory,.

Generally speaking, I don't concede my cities to barbs, even if it gets pummeled while reinforcements are on the way. Almost no city is beyond the same-day reach of at least one diplomat, and I often use a hub-and-spoke method for coverage, which is why I sometimes have Dips sleeping seemingly in the middle of "nowhere". Need good roads to use mobile defense forces (MDFs). The biggest problem is getting set on defensible terrain to absorb the first attack so you can get the leader, which tends to hide under a mil unit about 70% of the time. Sea barbs from nowhere are the biggest wildcard, and the most likely cause of a lost city. Moreover, with Sea Barbs, I often have to kill the stack, including the leader (if any). Typically, neaby cities might be left undefended with Elvii for happiness control while the fight goes on.... fortunately, simultaneous localized barbs assaults are very very rare.

For me, temples are great, because that means the city is larger, so I don't mind the 1g cost per turn.

As for tech, Straight for Monarchy (Prefer Oedo timing), then Philosophy, then Trade. Sometimes hut popping might change P/T order. Most advances from very early game Huts can be crippling, as it slow the progress to Monarchy. HBR is the real killer... I despise that worthless advance in early game (e.g., before Trade and Philosophy, and really even Astronomy)! I can almost always get Polythiesm from a civ, thus skipping the drag of Chum like HBR. Map Making is also almost worthless on most maps. Barb ships are exist to supply a small navy. And finally, Warrior Code is the third triad of early game trash that can slow your science race early on. Avoid it at all costs. You'll be getting barb archers with bribes anyway.