First Civ You Ever Played Challenge Take Two: For Me It Was Alexander

[ratrangerm]

About a month ago, there was a thread in the General Discussion forum in which people talked about their first ever game of Civ and which civ it was they chose. And as I had said, I first played the original Civ in college and chose the Greeks, for which Alexander was the leader.

I decided to apply this to a challenge, in which I used Alexander in a game of Civ IV to see what I could do with him now, but that game never got finished in large part because of the holiday break. But now, I've decided it's time to get back to that challenge I put before myself.

So let's see here... Alexander is an Aggressive and Philosophical leader, so this suggests a strategy of early rushes with military while churning out Great Leaders, and in particular, Great Scientists, as that will help compensate for lowered research because of my warmongering tendencies. This means Great Library will be a priority among Wonders.

The parameters: Noble difficulty, Epic speed, continents and no other modification (yes, this time I'm going to play with barbarians. Got to learn how to best handle the guys, and with the experience I can get from them, it means less of a need to build barracks).

So with that in mind, I have begun the game, but have stopped after learning of my starting position. As you can see, I've got some nice flood plains territory on a river, forest to the north of my settler and a corn resource if I settle right on the spot where my settler is.

But I also moved my scout down one square to the south to see what else was there. He turned up more flood plains and some plains hills and still has one more move left.

I'm tempted now to move my settler one square south, and Athens would have the making of a very nice Science city with a good cottage spam, or perhaps a GP farm. I'm thinking Science city is the better option, though.

Moving South would give me extra squares along the river, but there may be more forest to the North that could be useful for chop rushing Settlers to start. I am planning on to have another Scout built first, though, since I don't have any sites for Camps, and since I'm not on the coast, I won't be building Work Boats (Greeks start with Hunting and Fishing).

I'm also thinking I have a good chance to find Copper in my borders, so a quick push to Bronze Working would be good.

So should I settle where my Settler is, or move him to see what else is there? The screenshot is attached.

 

[Elrohir]

Why not a production city? I count six hills, and by farming the flood plains you could easily feed them even if don't have any food resources hidden to the north. (Which is unlikely) That would be a great early production center, and if you watermilled/workshopped everything you could, that would be one of the best production sites I've ever seen in the long term as well.

It would make an excellent science city, of course, but personally I prefer having my capital be a production monster rather than a commerce city. And with all those hills, I think it's more suited for that role.

 

[flamingzaroc121]

that could make a great commerce city but it will be very unhealthy so you will have to farm to make up for the food loss when you are unhealthy

 

[ratrangerm]

Hmmm... a production city? That's certainly an interesting idea. Would also be helped if I have copper in my borders (and with all the hills nearby, it's a strong possibility).

If I do make this the production city, then it solves my initial research path, as I go with mining, then BW. Just need to think of my next step after BW, though, as originally I had thought, with a cottage spam, pottery could be the next goal after BW.

I'd just have to scout the surrounding territory well to find locations for a science/commerce city. I'll definitely keep the production city idea in mind, but that could change depending on what the surrounding territory looks like.

I think I'll settle where I am now and use the scout to find out what surrounds me.

 

[ratrangerm]

Round One: To 2410 BC:

I opted to settle in place and we'll use a "wait and see" approach on what role Athens will ultimately serve. As planned, I started building a scout and made Mining my first tech to research. I should note that founding Athens popped a hut instantly... I got a map. Not much, but as I will tell you, my searches got better as the game progressed.

Next hut my scout found popped 100 gold, and the one after gave me a free tech.... archery. Which is fine... one less tech I'll have to trade for later.

And in 3760 BC, I already ran into my first neighbor, Cyrus. His scout appeared from the west, so I began searching in that area for him.

In 3730 BC, I finished researching Mining and went to Bronze Working. My Scout I was building finished the next turn just as my borders popped... and there was marble to the north of me! More on this when I get to the map.

I decided to build another scout... my city hadn't grown to size two yet and it would get the worker out faster, given the surrounding tiles. Besides, if I plan to take out my neighbors early, I need all the info from exploring I can get.

My first scout popped another hut for experience, and Woodsman II was a no-brainer. My second scout found yet another hut, which netted me my third Scout.

And I did find Persia, and poor Cyrus is stuck in tundra. Of course, he probably has decent land and some fish within his borders, but still, he isn't going to be in good shape to start.

I popped another hut for 72 gold, which will help keep my research at 100 percent, my Scout was finished in Athens and I switched to a Worker.

In 3310 BC, Buddhism was founded somewhere, and the very next turn, Hinduism was founded, which told me I must have some spiritual Civs in this game. Popped another hut for 57 gold, so that's 229 gold in the treasury... certainly good to keep my research going strong.

BW was finished in 3190 BC. I instantly changed my civics to Slavery and I decided to research Agriculture next. If you noticed from the starting location, there's Corn in my capital's borders, so I think it will be good to farm that as soon as I can.

The Wheel followed Ag in my research path, and in 2860 BC, I found my second neighbor...

...and oh boy, I'm not the only warmonger here, because it's Monty. On the other hand, Monty is the guy who founded Hinduism... oh, pray with me, brothers and sisters, that Hinduism will spread to my lands so I can convert and keep him off my back. Good thing is he's way to the south and there's jungle in between us, plus his land to the south has some good territory, so he's unlikely to expand north.

And right near Monty's territory, there was a hut that hadn't been popped. Hey, thanks Monty, I'll take it... and even better, as I got a free tech in Mysticism. That will definitely come in handy, as I can now build Obelisks and take advantage of the Marble... again, more on that later.

Wheel was finished and I selected Masonry next. In 2470 BC, I had completed my second forest chop of a settler, and kept two scouts to the north to fogbust at my selected second city site, and thus I cracked the whip to complete my settler...

...which brings us to 2410 BC where I ended this round.

The map is attached, as is the saved game. Questions I have for anyone who is willing to answer them:

* I have Athens set to build a barracks but can switch it to something else... part of me thought I should build another worker instead. Better idea than the barracks? Or is there a yet even better option?

* There's copper to the north, right near the marble, and a pigs on a hill resource is also there. I'm founding my second city one square west of the copper and plan to build an obelisk to pop my borders and get the piggies and marble. But I'm also pondering sites for future cities... there's lot of river territroy to be had to the west, where Cyrus is, as well as some pretty good land to the east. Not much to be had to the south, where there's a lot of jungle and Monty looming there, so expanding that way may not be a good idea at this time.

* What tech should come after Masonry? I'm thinking heading for Animal Husbandry to work the pigs, then head straight to Writing for Open Borders so I can check Cyrus out more carefully, and Monty as well.

* My hunch is that I need to go after Cyrus first and hope that Hinduism spreads to my lands so I can convert and keep Monty on my good side. As much of a pain it can be to deal with Monty, he's far away from my lands and there's jungle between us so rushing him first doesn't make much sense. Cyrus is closer and he's likely in a weaker position, so I say he's target No. 1.

Those are the issues before the mighty Greeks... by all means, let me know what you think.

 

[cabert]

did you already found that second city?
I would found it so that marble, copper and pigs all are in the first ring.
You'll get a "free" border pop via religion sometime.
This could be a very good production city, when you have AH.

 

[ratrangerm]

You're right... I can found it so all the resources are in the first ring. It would overlap Athens, of course, but Athens could then settler for being a commerce/science city after all. I'd just have to keep it small so health issues don't become too much of a problem.

With Marble in my borders, I'm thinking the old Oracle/Metal Casting trick needs to come into play. It would likely mean having to push to Priesthood before Alphabet... Monty has Marble nearby, so he could opt to go for the Oracle himself, and there's no telling who among the unknown civs is Industrial.

I'm thinking I also need to switch Athens to producing a Warrior to at least have one unit around that can help protect lands... while Warriors aren't strong, I'd get a Combat I promotion thanks to my Aggressive trait. That might be better than having an Archer to start with.

Once the Copper is hooked up, I can start cranking out Phalanxs and Axemen. With any luck, Hinduism will spread to me and I can convert so Monty will be my friend.

I won't get to the game until tonight and will likely play until I've got the settler for my third city completed. I'll definitely wants units built before that, though, as the barbarians are going to start showing up soon.

 

[ratrangerm]

I did, however, take the time to update the map with Cabert's suggestions for the second city site.

Finding the third site is likely going to depend on where Horses are located once I get AH researched.

Too bad the Wheat, Cows and Sheep to the east are in Plains/Tundra territory, or there's the location for the GP Farm. As it is now, it's not so good... I could run maybe two specialists, but not much more than that.

The territory to the west has rivers and would cut off Cyrus, but one drawback is the mountains.

There's a Corn/Spice site to the southeast, but that may not be the site to go right for the third city at this time.

To the southwest there is more river territory, but it lacks resources. Don't know if Horses would pop up there... Iron may be more likely to appear in those hills or plains... if it isn't in the hills near Athens.

Tough call. I'll cross the bridge when we get to it, though... second city needs to be founded first.

 

[ratrangerm]

Round Two: 2410 BC to 940 BC:

Yes, it took me that long to get my settler built for my third city, but there's a reason for that.

First of all, I kept my build in Athens a barracks... I really didn't want to be stuck with warriors or archers, even if the warriors get Combat I to start.

In 2320 BC, I founded my second city, Sparta, and had it start building a worker.

Masonry discovered in 2290 BC, I then went with Animal Husbandry. Along the way, I noticed both Cyrus and Monty had promoted their Scouts to Combat I. Geez, the AI can really be dumb.

Road was hooked up between my cities in 2110 BC and I started the copper mind. No sign of barbarian warriors yet.

In 2080 BC, I came upon yet another hut... Monty was pretty sloppy with his hut searching. I got my more experience and this was for my Woodsman II Scout, so I gave him a Guerrila I promotion. Then he survived an attack from a lion... too bad he couldn't get any more XP for that. A Woodsman II and Guerrila II Scout would be _sweet_.

AH acquired in 1990 BC, made the switch to Writing. Horses are to the South and within reach, so I likely have found my third city. Monty has the only other source I know of.

In 1960 BC, something surprising happened... one of my Scouts who was a Woodsman I was attacked by a panther while on a hill with no forest... and he won without a scratch! I gave him a Woodsman II promotion, so this will really help with exploring and fogbusting.

Copper hooked up in 1930 BC same time as my Barracks in Athens was finished. I could have whipped it, but the overflow would have had to go into a warrior or archer. Again, still no barbs, so I've been pretty lucky. I did crack the whip quickly for my first Phalanx and held off on promoting him... he gets Combat I to start thanks to the Agg trait, and since they are city defenders, I felt it best to wait to see if any Barb Axemen do show up... Shock will then be the best promotion if that happens.

My worker started building a farm on the corn near Athens. That will help with city growth and I can make better use of the whip.

Sparta completed its worker in 1780 BC and will do a barracks of its own... it could be built in eight turns, so I went with it. My worker started a pasture for the piggies.

In 1720 BC, my Scout spots a barbie Warrior near Monty's territory, so they are now coming.

Writing finished in 1600 BC... took a while, but I'm not working many commerce tiles and I have been using the whip. Probably should have been more selective with tiles being worked, but hindsight and all that. Went with Pottery next just in case I decided to cottage spam Athens soon. Signed Open Borders with both Cyrus and Monty and cracked the whip in Athens for another Phalanx to defend Sparta.

Worker near Athens completes the farm and will now mine a plains hill along the river... will help with production and give me a little commerce.

My exploration shows Monty put his second city to the north... well, geez, that's not good. I also found Cyrus has marble by Persepolis and he's got a quarry up and running.

Pottery in 1390 BC. Went with Alphabet here... I was hedging between going for Alpha first or dashing to Priesthood for the Oracle, but since Cyrus has Marble hooked up, he's a contender for Oracle. Ditto for Monty and his Spiritual tendencies, although he doesn't have Marble hooked up to his cities.

Cracked the whip yet again for another Phalanx in Athens that will accompany my Settler to my third city site. Sparta finishes its barracks and the whip is quickly cracked for an Axeman for my early rush.

My neighbors are now founding their third cities. I do a forest chop at Athens to finish that Settler. In 1150 BC, Judaism is founded somewhere, but not by Monty... I check his cities and he doesn't have the holy city. Neither does Cyrus. Monty founded his third city to the south of Tenochtitlan while Cyrus founded just west of Sparta.

And now, we come to 940 BC with my settler completed for my third city. Also, I have three axemen, all with CR I promotions and a Phalanx with a Medic I promotion to accompany them. Will build another Axeman in Sparta, and while I have Athens set to do a library, I think Axemen out of Athens is the path to go instead.

Attached is the map, a dot map with where I think my third city will go (settler was just built but he hasn't gone out into the wild yet) and my saved game. Questions to consider at this point:

* I still think I need to go after Cyrus and do so ASAP. He doesn't have copper or horses, and I'm certain he's beelining to Iron Working. Monty is still too far away to be a threat yet, but I'm betting he'll go to IW as well for his Jaguars.

* Hinduism has yet to spread to my lands... not good. Cyrus hasn't founded a religion either, so I'm hoping Hinduism comes to me first and before it goes to Cyrus so Monty isn't upset about me declaring war on a friend.

* It's probably not possible to go for the Oracle now to get Metal Casting. I suspect somebody else is probably building it as I speak. Besides, I need that Axeman rush ASAP before Cyrus gets too powerful.

* Persepolis looks like a city worth keeping... there's _three_ crab resources alongside it. Do the math on the food you get with fishing boats on all three and that has potential to be a GP farm... I count 15 food total from those three improved squares alone. The forested tundra is partly along a river, so you can get decent food to supplement it. The other two Persian cities... Pasargadae could be kept as its fat cross would get Wheat and Cows, but Susa is likely to be razed.

* I figure Athens can build a couple of Axemen before another Phalanx/Settler combo to build another city to the east... the question is, what are the best locations? There's Cows, Sheep, Wheat, Clams and an Oasis out that direction.

I welcome anyone's thoughts.

 

[cabert]

if you plan to go for cyrus, you should build phalanxes mostly and just a handful of axemen. Remember the guy has a powerful UU!

 

[ratrangerm]

Point taken about Cyrus, except he doesn't have Horses, meaning no UU for him.

 

[ratrangerm]

Round Four: To 260 AD

Quite a bit happened this round... I didn't keep track as much of what was happening here, but now, it's probably just best to spot the highlights.

Started in 940 BC. Alphabet researched in 745 BC. Nobody will trade tech, but both have Iron Working. Figures. Went with Polytheism so I can get Literature.

730 BC: Started Settler for my fourth city. Had to stop with the whip in Sparta as the city was reaching its unhappiness threshold even at size two. Check relations between Monty and Cyrus and Monty doesn't like him... Hinduism hasn't spread to Persia (and hasn't spread to me either but Monty is staying neutral with me).

700 BC: Declared war on Cyrus. Got to move now before Cyrus' Creative trait makes his cities too tough to take.

670 BC: Somebody builds Stonehenge... not Monty, though. Attacked Susa and despite bad odds with the first Archer, Axemen wins, then two more Axemen take down Warriors. I kept Susa as it's close to my empire and is in a pretty good location on plains hill surrounded by hills and floodplains, albeit a couple of mountains.

640 BC: Poly discovered, now moving to Literature.

565 BC: Monty was willing to trade Sailing, gave him Writing for it. Figured I should get what tech from Monty I can get since he's going to start falling behind me.

550 BC: Pasargadae taken, but then I discover Cyrus has founded Arbela just north of me. Kept Pasargadae, but now Cyrus is forcing me to redirect troops.

445 BC: Literature discovered, will build it in Athens... floodplains may give health issues, but as I acquire tech and resources, I can make a Science city with two free GS plus one more. Athens can do production if needed. Went after Priesthood, which Monty had but wouldn't trade. He would trade Iron Working now, so I swapped Alphabet for it... there's nobody else around and Monty doesn't like Cyrus, plus since he does not prioritize tech, I felt it was a safe trade. Found Iron resource near fourth city location.

415 BC: Cyrus wants peace and offers Meditation if I accept. I do just that... it was a good deal and I need to regroup because Cyrus built Arbela and I need to regroup.

400 BC: Priesthood completed, went for Code of Laws. Athens completes a Phalanx and starts Great Library.

385 BC: Sparta started an Obelisk... Arbela is right near it and I still don't have Hinduism in my lands so I need culture from something. Corinth founded near Iron and starts Obelisk.

370 BC: Thremopylae also builds Obelisk. Thought Hinduism would spread by now, but it hasn't so I want to push my borders back as barbs are popping up.

245 BC: Sparta completes Obelisk. I debated on whether or not to build the Oracle as it wouldn't take long. I bite the bullet and go for Oracle.

190 BC: Somebody founds Confucianism and it isn't Monty.

100 BC: That's when I get CoL. Mathematics next. I take a Barbarian city with my troops.

85 BC: And my risk pays off as I finish the Oracle. Chose Civil Service... it's a more expensive tech than Metal Casting and I can get Bureaucracy. I make the switch so I can speed up Great Library.

40 BC: Declared war again on Cyrus and took Arbela... lost an Axeman but won the overall battle and razed Arbela so I can keep my maintenance costs down.

20 AD: Great Library finished and I have Athens do military for now.

80 AD: Mathematics done, heading for Construction.

125 AD: First Great Scientist appears in Athens. I would have used him for an Academy, but Taoism has not been discovered so I lightbulb for Philosophy. Taoism founded in Thremopylae.

140 AD: Cyrus had founded Tarsus near Pasargadae. Lost two Axes but it fell. Have Swordsmen on the way to help remaining Axes.

200 AD: Taoism spread to Athens so I start Monastery. Will use Missionaries to spread Taoism to my cities and help with culture. Won't adopt Taoism as state religion, though, as I want to keep Monty from deciding to declare war before I'm ready.

230 AD: Cyrus sent Settler out of Persepolis, but too late, as I have enough forces to beat his two Archers defending Persepolis and Cyrus is no more. Persepolis kept as planned.

245 AD: Construction discovered, now it's on to Currency. Monty builds the Hindu holy shrine, it's in Technoctitlan as that's where Hinduism was founded. I'm ahead of him in his tech and he doesn't even have Math or CoL yet.

That brings us to 260 AD. I'm planning to expand southwest to claim some river territory and get sites for commerce cities. Thermopylae started as commerce city, but I'll switch to production and farm over cottages once other cities up north get cottage spam going where they'll be most beneficial.

Going to head for Machinery after Currency is finished so I can get Macemen and Crossbowmen into my army. Will build lots of Catapults as I'll need them when attacking Monty. He hasn't built any wonders yet, and I hope it stays that way so I can raze every city he has, then go for Tenochtitlan last (I'll have to keep it as it's the Hindu holy city).

Will also build Axemen/Macemen to stay in border cities to defend against barbs... I expect barbarian Swordsmen to start showing up soon, so Axemen and Macemen are the best defense.

Map and saved game are attached... I certainly welcome advice for additional city locations as well as other things to keep in mind when going after Monty.

 

[ratrangerm]

Round Five: To 1202 AD

Started in 290 AD... somebody completes Pyramids the next turn. Get another Great Scientist in Athens the turn after that and he builds Academy. Hinduism spreads to me the very next turn and I convert just to keep Monty pacified. It's 395 AD and Monty completes Parthenon in Technotitlan, so it's still the only city I'll have to keep of his when I invade.

Spent this round mostly rebuilding economy and fighting off barbarians. Units are now doing fogbusting to keep them from popping up too much.

Currency in 425 AD, Metal Casting next. Jewish Holy Shrine built somewhere in 500 AD, but I do find out who it is that has it.... more later.

Another barb city captured and raze, I take two workers from it.

Metal Casting in 560 AD, Machinery next. As that is researched, I make deals with Monty, sending Cow to him to get Silk. I have Silk of my own, so I won't need this deal once I get Calendar. Great Scientist again in Athens in 665 AD and I use him to lightbulb Paper.

Christianity founded somewhere in 740 AD, it isn't Monty. I've been scouting his lands to see what he's like... he's got a pretty good amount of units and of course he's building Barracks. Need to get my forces pretty strong and include Macemen and Catapults.

785 AD, I get Machinery and now pursue Compass. Great Lighthouse built somewhere in 815 AD. Compass discovered in 920 AD and I head to Optics.

Somebody builds Hanging Gardens in 1055 AD. Get another Great Scientist in 1070 and lightbulb him toward Education. Get Optics in 1085 and now go for Engineering.

Confucian Holy Shrine built in 1118 AD. In 1124 AD Montyoffers spices for crabs and I accept as well.

Caravel built and I find the other continent in 1178 AD. First civ I meet is Kublai Khan and he's the guy who founded Judaism. I work a tech trade where I get Monotheism and Monarchy for Code of Laws and 30 gold. Interestingly, he hasn't researched Alphabet yet.

Chichen Itza built somewhere in 1184 AD and it's likely one of the tech leaders since Kublai doesn't have Construction. Get Engineering in 1190 AD and go for Feudalism next. I'm waiting on my next GS so I can finish Education and then I'll go for Liberalism.

Kublai wants Construction for Calendar. I offer him Philosophy instead and he accepts. I suspect he'll head for Angkor Wat but I'm not interested in building it so no big loss.

Now it's 1202 AD. I've prepared my forces and am about to invade Monty's lands. Before I do, I will probably switch to no state religion so I have a better chance of making friends with at least one other civ on the other continent.

Saved game attached.