First Win on Monarch Challenge

[pawelo]

You too are 'able to win under any conditions' on prince ?

You are able to beat an Always War AI on Noble ?

You have read (and are still reading ) all games by Sisutil, Snaaty, Unconquered Sun (and many more) and all on-going and past SGs ?

You too know Sullla's walkthrough by heart ?

Still, you never risked yourself on Monarch, because you have heard about the enhanced AI, research too fast etc.
Don't fear any longer

This game is for you.
Myself, I'm rather a Prince guy, trying Monarch for about two weeks now.
I've just finished it, and found it great as a 'step' game from Prince to Monarch.

All is in your hands now.

Here is the setup of your playground:



Meet your first winning Monarch leader, Willem:



Willem is great for many reasons.
Financial is, IMHO, the most powerful trait in the game.
Coupled with creative for cheap libraries, research shouldn't be a problem.
Also, his UB is great for a late-game domination or space (Moai Statues everywhere ).

And your start could have been much worse :



I encourage everyone to try this one.
If you're already a Monarch player, you will find it pretty entertaining but not challanging.
If you play Prince, this one is for you
If you learned with Orion how to beat Noble and are confident with it, you may jump on this one too.

No reporting required.
Feel free to take the save and play on.
I will answer all questions posted in this thread - should you need any advice, shoot ahead
Any game-spoiling questions and answers should be posted in [SPOILERS].

Good luck everyone!

Let this one be a 'first time' for the most of us

 

[CBPE]

Thank you fo this 3D!

I’ve switched on Monarch a bit ago but I have to learn a lot yet!
I won my first game with Elyzabeth and now I’m attempting with Ragnar (I already restarted several times).

Anyway, these are my ideas for the this start:

1) There is no reason to move the settler, so place it here.
2) We don’t have UU/UB soon avalaible, and we need copper/iron ASAP and cottages (we are FIN). We don’t have resources which requires Hunting, AH orMasonry, so the early tech path should be very simple:Mining/BW/Wheel/AH/Pottery
3) We could start with a worker: he could soon improve the rice (we start with Agriculture) while researching BW and then chop for a second one. But I’d start with a fishing boat 'cause it allow to work a 4F/3C tile (instead of a 4F "only"), very strong in the start. Of course, when we reach size 2, it’s time to build the worker.

Some others remarks for early strategy:

- we'll have soon a dye resource avalaible, so Calendar could be a priority in order to raise the happy cap.
- we need coastal cities in order to emphasize our UU/UB. So, we can manage to prefer scouting the coasts rather the in-land with the idea to find soon the better spots for our coastal cities (of course, it doesn't mean that we'll neglet to scout the in-land, especially around the capital).
- looking at the tiles we can see in the BFC, we have at this moment a +7 food surplus simply improving the clams and the rice (without farms). Of course it's incomplete, but this city has a strongly vocation to become a GP farm/SuperScience city (we also have 3 sweet foodplains for the cottages). Another good reason to go for Writing (build soon a Library) /Maths/Sailing/Calendar after Pottery (of course, if we'll have no copper, or if a resource which requires Hunting or Masonry will appear, we'll have to do different considerations).

Where am I wrong?!?

 

[pawelo]

Thank you fo this 3D!

I’ve switched on Monarch a bit ago but I have to learn a lot yet!
I won my first game with Elyzabeth and now I’m attempting with Ragnar (I already restarted several times).

Anyway, these are my ideas for the this start:

1) There is no reason to move the settler, so place it here.
2) We don’t have UU/UB soon avalaible, and we need copper/iron ASAP and cottages (we are FIN). We don’t have resources which requires Hunting, AH orMasonry, so the early tech path should be very simple:Mining/BW/Wheel/AH/Pottery
3) We could start with a worker: he could soon improve the rice (we start with Agriculture) while researching BW and then chop for a second one. But I’d start with a fishing boat 'cause it allow to work a 4F/3C tile (instead of a 4F "only"), very strong in the start. Of course, when we reach size 2, it’s time to build the worker.

Some others remarks for early strategy:

- we'll have soon a dye resource avalaible, so Calendar could be a priority in order to raise the happy cap.
- we need coastal cities in order to emphasize our UU/UB. So, we can manage to prefer scouting the coasts rather the in-land with the idea to find soon the better spots for our coastal cities (of course, it doesn't mean that we'll neglet to scout the in-land, especially around the capital).
- looking at the tiles we can see in the BFC, we have at this moment a +7 food surplus simply improving the clams and the rice (without farms). Of course it's incomplete, but this city has a strongly vocation to become a GP farm/SuperScience city (we also have 3 sweet foodplains for the cottages). Another good reason to go for Writing (build soon a Library) /Maths/Sailing/Calendar after Pottery (of course, if we'll have no copper, or if a resource which requires Hunting or Masonry will appear, we'll have to do different considerations).

Where am I wrong?!?

You aren't

In fact, Pottery and Writing are early important goals for a financial/creative leader we got in here.

Those 3 floodplains just call for cottaging, and cheap library makes the Great Scientist pop slightly faster than on average for an early academy.

IW will be a must here for the northern jungle, and BW for slavery (this is a very High-food spot - it would be a shame to leave it far from a whip).

As for the civ-specific, you're right for the coasts. Financial + Lighthouse + Colossus is a great shot, and works better than cottaging in the early game.
Still, you will need some inland cities - jungles often cover grasslands, so a river/jungle spot is highly advisable.

I hope you'll enjoy this one as much as I did

 

[CBPE]

As for the civ-specific, you're right for the coasts. Financial + Lighthouse + Colossus is a great shot

Just a little question.

I didn't mention any wonder (at least the earliest) 'cause we don't need Stonehenge (we are creative), it seems there's no need for Pyramids (we are financial, so we are naturally oriented towards a CE) and GW (at least if we'll have no stone).

I tought about the Colossus too, but it becomes relatively quick obsolete in this game (we have to bee-line to Astronomy to unlock the UU), and we are not sure about how many coastal cities we'll able to have.

Is it a good investment anyway?

 

[LlamaCat]

I think my wonder decisions will be on whether there is stone or marble nearby. Not sure of the long-term value in any of these early wonders (although Pyramids is always easy enough to get even without stone).

I actually settled 1 East on the hill for extra hammers and it turned out to be the right call I think. The fresh water bonus on the river is almost canceled out by the flood plains and there are plenty of good resources for 2 cities to split those flood plains.

 

[pawelo]

Regarding the Colossus, its value is of course determined by the surrounding terrain. Given the start, I have been tempted to give it a shot.
You're right about Stonehenge being quite useless.
This being Medium & Small (sorry, I forgot to mention it earlier ), GW is rather irrelevant.
Pyramids are always nice, especially given the food surplus @ the capital.

@LlamaCat - nice decision to settle 1E - I think it pays early in the game, though the late game capital is a pure wonder when settled in place

 

[xanadux]

My take ...

Early builds ... workboat, working the 3H tile, then start another workboat, working the clams until size 2, then the clams + 3 hammer tile. Grow to size 3 working both clams while building a warrior (finish the warrior with the 3H tile after size 3), then a worker. I would then start a second worker, chopping the plains hill to help, then grow to happy cap while prioritizing mines. When chopping a hill for a mine, switch to a settler for a turn to use the chop hammers on the settler. After at happy cap, and mines are built, build cottages.

I would prioritize monarchy after pottery and writing, and of course CS for Bureaucracy. If there are several neighboring AIs, it may be best to trade for monarchy and just beeline CS. AIs like to get monarchy pretty early anyway. After CS, compass for harbors and possibly guilds for grocers. Raising the health and happy cap will be a primary goal to get the most of this food heavy start. I think the Great Lighthouse is a better wonder than the colossus most of the time. The output of the 2 is similar, but the GL lasts a long time before going obsolete, while the colossus can obsolete very quickly if you go for naval supremacy. Also, Metal Casting is expensive and doesn't get you going towards the best techs for a CE ... Civil Service and Monarchy.

I usually only consider the colossus a reasonable goal if I have 2 or 3 mining happy resources (and so want to prioritize forges) and have copper to speed it along.

Another early game priority, after settling a few more cities, is to get a library up and run a couple scientists to get an academy. By the time CS is reached, should have 100+ beakers/turn from the capital with Bureaucracy and an academy.

Cottages should also be put down on all of the grassland river tiles early. One of the problems with so much food is you can't work all your good tiles without growing past the happy cap. some lower food cottages are a good idea. It should be decided what to do with the hammers from those forests though. I see 2 good options, settlers and workers or the Great Lighthouse.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

1) There is no reason to move the settler, so place it here.

...Where am I wrong?!?

I, personally, would be very tempted to push the Settler one tile east. It's something of a gamble, but this location has so much food I don't think the second clams is going to be very important (since it can feed the city that will be placed on the western coast).

It looks as though the trade is a clams and a plains mine for a floodplain, an extra grassland river tile, a plains hill city. Plus or minus a forest.

I'm speculating that the move is the right call if you go worker first, but settling in place is correct if you decide to start with workboats. I might be wrong about the latter. I'm much more confident in the former case.

 

[xanadux]

Even with workboat first, moving on the plains hill loses only the turn to move on building the workboat. There will still be a 1F2H tile to work, and with the extra hammer from the plains hill, the workboat still gets built with 4H/turn. Bonus of an extra food per turn while building the workboat. So the move is worthwhile in the early game. The risk is you can't see the tiles you are gaining from the move. You know you will lose 2 hills of production. You hope you will get at least 2 hills or other useful tiles from the move. 1E is clearly a superior placement for the first 20 turns or so. An additional consideration is losing the fresh water bonus. There is plenty of food to offset this early in the game, but it may be a liability mid-late game.

 

[CBPE]

Yes, maybe moving 1E is better, but I didn’t see this possibility so I’ll play this game in the way I’ve planned.

I’ve played 57 turns (1720 BC) and it’s time to take some decisions:

Spoiler :

I've builded 2 work boats first and when reached size 2 I've builded worker/worker/warrior/settler (I did for him my first whip at turn 45)
I’ve catched 2 huts gotting mining and a scout (great!) but no gold.
I've researched Mining (for 2 turns but then I’ve got it) /BW/AH (I've discovered cows in the BFC and then horses ) /Wheel.
Meanwhile I’ve discovered the copper NW a bit far from Amsterdam. Anyway, to hook it, I could found a coastal city with fish, pigs and Ivory in the BFC, so I did it!
I’ve stolen a worker from Louis XIV (turn 46) and I’ve already stop the war with him.
Now I’ve got 3 warriors, 2 chariots, 3 workers and I’m building my third settler. Soon I’ll have the copper (2 workers are building the mine that is already linked).

So:

1) Early rush?!? Against who? Shaka and Darius are a bit far and probably already have their early UU. Louis is far from Amsterdam but not so far from Utrecht, he has founded hinduism, so Paris has to be an holy city and I’ve weakened him stealing his worker. But I’ve seen that he has copper. Of course I’ve chariots, so I’d to have to build a mixed army of Axemen and Chariots.

2) Where to place my third city? Here is my DOTmap idea (white are the two cities that already exist):

3) to whip or not to whip? I’m in the position to whip my third settler (pop 4, requires 2).
But I don’t know if it could be better to leave Amsterdam grow. I can raise quite easily the happy and health cap with a lot of resources, I want to run ASAP two scientists and, besides this, I need to work the commerce’s tiles 'cause I haven't gold in my tresury.

Here is the tech tree (after IW, I’ll research hunting and writing):

The glance:

Amsterdam:

Utrecht:

 

[xanadux]

I don't think a rush is a good idea here. 2 cities, and you can block the AI. The northern cow/rice city, and a city ESE of the capital. I would move the city ESE of the capital to 1E of the cows to also get the rice.

Block the AI, develop the economy, expand your empire, tech to CS and then machinery, build macemen. You have plenty of room to expand, and could even delay a war to riflemen or cannon. If you choose to block the AI, make sure to build enough units to keep your power up.

 

[pawelo]

Fully agree with xanadux. Early expansion to block the AI is the key - especially if you can do it easily.

Moreover,

Spoiler :

Be ware of Shaka, he is a pain in the @$$ if you let him develop.
I would block him first, and stock a nice stack in the blocking city, because Shaka WILL attack you sooner or later.
You can also rush him, but need many units...
Louis is a wonder-monger, his army stays usually at the minimum, so let him build all the wonders for you and smash him later. He will surely manage a few of them and even found the shrine
Darius is a great teching partner and can very easily be blocked ( and with few risks ) to his sub-landmass.

Tech-wise, I would go for Writing, Alphabet, Currency. Then beeline Maces & Cats.

The perfect third city is the light blue (cow-wine east of Amsterdam). It blocks Shaka expansion and limits his striking force that should come after you in the next 50-70 turns. Maybe it will stay low in food, still can become a nice production city.

Hey, your game seems well on the wheels

Good luck!

 

[CBPE]

I’ve played about 100 turns (425 BC). Some bad news, some good news.

Spoiler :

I’ve founded the third city (light blue DOT) to block Shaka. Iron appeared in his BFC
There was a lack in the scouting: I’ve not seen that to box Darius I have to found ASAP a city 1W from the rice here.

Meanwhile, Louis founded a city north of Utrecht.
So, I reconsidered my DOT map, and I think that this one is better:

I could still block Louis but Darius beated me founding a city inside “my land”.
So I founded the green city on the north (with rice, Ivory, Iron and a lot of forest), and then the orange city on the new DOT: it’s anyway a good city that will allow me to raise the happy cap and I didn’t want to lose it by Darius. Besides, in such way it blocks his expansion.

Meanwhile, I’ve built a Library in Amsterdam and I’m running two scientist (a GS will appear in six turns), I’ve finished Alphabet and I think it’s better to go for Maths/Calendar to exploit the great amount of luxury resources that I can have.

Some SS:

Shaka-block (and the army to protect it):

Amsterdam:

Utrecth:

The Hague (the third city):

Rotterdam (the green DOT):

Nijmegen (the orange DOT):

The powergraphs:

The demographics:

Top cities/wonders:

I have a couple of questions:

1) My economy is suffering the REX, and I think it’s not a good idea to found another city right now (maybe except for the yellow DOT which allows to work a gold mine).
I need to grow a bit to consolidate it, and it seems that the only way I have is to go for Calendar, isn’it?

2) Judaism spread to Rottardam.... could be a good idea to spread it in my cities?

3) Once I’ve got Alphabet, surely Shaka will demand a lot of techs.... I have to satisfy him to avoid the war? But is it wisely? In my experience, he’s a crazy “REXer”, and builds a huge army, but he’s always very back in tech, and often he has chariots and impis when I’ve Macemen and Caths....

4) Specially, what about Darius? As you can see, he has built Pyramids and GW (Louis has built no one despite he has stone!). It seems he hasn’t horses, 'cause I’ve not seen any Immortal.
It could be a funny idea to raze Susa, found the cyan DOT (blocking him definitively) and then try to capture Persepolis and his Wonders......

 

[pawelo]

Spoiler :

I have a couple of questions:

1) My economy is suffering the REX, and I think it’s not a good idea to found another city right now (maybe except for the yellow DOT which allows to work a gold mine).
I need to grow a bit to consolidate it, and it seems that the only way I have is to go for Calendar, isn’it?

2) Judaism spread to Rottardam.... could be a good idea to spread it in my cities?

3) Once I’ve got Alphabet, surely Shaka will demand a lot of techs.... I have to satisfy him to avoid the war? But is it wisely? In my experience, he’s a crazy “REXer”, and builds a huge army, but he’s always very back in tech, and often he has chariots and impis when I’ve Macemen and Caths....

4) Specially, what about Darius? As you can see, he has built Pyramids and GW (Louis has built no one despite he has stone!). It seems he hasn’t horses, 'cause I’ve not seen any Immortal.
It could be a funny idea to raze Susa, found the cyan DOT (blocking him definitively) and then try to capture Persepolis and his Wonders......

Thanks for your reports CPBE. Always funny to see how things can go other way than when I played it

Anyway, here are some answers - not the only way to do it, but hey, it's worth what it's worth

Spoiler :

1. Yep, I think you rexed pretty much
Anyway, nothing is lost. Just get many cottages up, land an academy in Amsterdam and research Currency ( I don't know if you already did )
Yellow DOT Is great because of gold. You will need this ressource, and Louis will claim it if you don't. Maybe, in parallel, you can put this city online too.

2. Don't adopt Judaism, nor spread it. You don't want negative modifiers with the AI you are blocking, believe me you really don't need it Still, if a foreign Jewish AI gets AP, spread it in all your cities to block the Religious Leader vote (or claim it )

3. Accomodate Shaka with non-military techs while waiting for Cats and Maces. Believe me, he is really blocked and you want to make everything possible to keep him happy with you (actually, in my game, I've rushed him with swords in turn 60-70 - it was managable but costly in armed forces).
Still, your cats and maces will overhelm his impis later on.

4. In my game I selected Louis as my second target, because he has went wonder crazy. I waited very long until attacking Darius. In your game though, Pyramids is a juicy stuff. I might give it a shot with promoted-on-zulu maces I don't think Darius have horses neither, making his early game advantage nil.
But if you don't get the cottage economy online asap, he may fly away techwise and you will face muskets instead of longbows

Great job CPBE!
I hope more players will share info like you do - it's always very instructive to compare games

 

[vicawoo]

You really need monarchy soon, and more workers.

 

[mystyfly]

palwelo, In your first post I see 'another' interface in your s/s (meaning not the standard one).

Are you using a mod, if yes, which one?

 

[pawelo]

I use the BUG interface ( stands for Bts Unaltered Play ) - it provides you with a whole lot of information accessible in a very easy way without altering the game rules.

You can find the related thread in here :

http://forums.civfanatics.com/forumdisplay.php?f=268

I highly recommend it to everyone around - once you get used to it, you are addicted

 

[mystyfly]

I use the BUG interface ( stands for Bts Unaltered Play ) - it provides you with a whole lot of information accessible in a very easy way without altering the game rules.

Do you mean, that you only installed that BUG thing or do you also have other mods installed, meaning that BUG only makes mods work together so you dont have to play with only one mod at a time. I dont really understand all the things in the threads in your link...

 

[pawelo]

BUG is composed of many different game-unaltering mods, meaning that you only require to install BUG through their standard install file.

Some great feutures in BUG:
- alerts when your city reaches happiness / health cap
- alerts when your city is "whippable/rushable"
- Great Person bar informing you where a great person will be born next and what is the most probable type
- Glance - showing all the diplomatic relations between all leaders
and many more

Try it

PS. I have received no money for this praise

 

[mystyfly]

PS. I have received no money for this praise

I downloaded it and I instantly loved it

ty very much for that link !