Fix Siege: Add a Trebuchet Unit

[Jkchart]

I know this has been suggested in parts of other threads, but Firaxis, can we PLEASE get a Trebuchet unit so that there is an effective counter to medieval walls?

Siege towers and battering rams underwent a (much needed) nerf, but we still don't have a ranged siege weapon answer to medieval walls, which can make things difficult during this portion of the game for war.

We have a catapult for ancient walls, Bombard for Renaissance walls, and promoted Frigates, and Urban defenses has the counter of not just TWO siege weapons (Artillery/Rocket Artillery) but also the bomber line of units and highly promoted battleships/missile cruisers. That's not counting nukes either.

I would be a little less irritated if siege units had some inherent resistance to ranged units/city attacks (which would help!), but Catapults are simply too squishy in the medieval era to be used effectively against medieval walls. There needs to be a medieval siege unit. We need to bring back the trebuchet. PLEASE firaxis, you've done so many other touch ups and i don't understand why we can't have this unit. End complaint/suggestion.

 

[Sostratus]

I have supported this and continue to support it.
Side benefit: the Khmer will be able to upgrade catapults into domrey (a domrey is statistically a unique unit trebuchet.)
If nothing else, do it for the elephants.

 

[Jkchart]

I have supported this and continue to support it.
Side benefit: the Khmer will be able to upgrade catapults into domrey (a domrey is statistically a unique unit trebuchet.)
If nothing else, do it for the elephants.

This will be my campaign slogan.

“Add a trebuchet. Do it for the elephants.”

I knew you’d be on board. It’s such a hugely needed balance adjustment that would make medieval warfare so much better

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

This will be my campaign slogan.

“Add a trebuchet. Do it for the elephants.”

"Elephants deserve to fly as well".

And to fix your problem, there the R.E.D. Total War Mod that adds more Units into the game, including, wait for it, a TREBUCHET!!

 

[Evie]

Bombard (used starting in the 1300 if not earlier) should be moved earlier in the tech tree to be the medieval upgrade of the catapult to begin with. By the renaissance (1500s) it was already being phased out for newer types of proper cannons, so a Siege Cannon unit would fit into a renaissance slot.

The counterweight trebuchet, which was never actually a mobile unit (they were just built on location, so in game would be more akin to a temporary improvement built by an early mil engineer type unit) and only predates the bombard by about 100 years, doesn't really work as an actual game unit.

 

[Thorvald of Lym]

(they were just built on location, so in game would be more akin to a temporary improvement built by an early mil engineer type unit)

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

"Medieval Castles were not easy to break into. They were basically like those jingle gym things at Chuck-E-Cheese's: Massive in size, intentionally confusing layout, security everywhere, and by the end of your visit, you'd probably end up with some kind of disease."

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Bombard (used starting in the 1300 if not earlier) should be moved earlier in the tech tree to be the medieval upgrade of the catapult to begin with. By the renaissance (1500s) it was already being phased out for newer types of proper cannons, so a Siege Cannon unit would fit into a renaissance slot.

Instead of adding more units into the game I'd be fine with moving bombards up an era. Of course I don't necessarily see the need for a Siege Cannon either if that's the case especially if bombards would get so little use.

 

[Sostratus]

Instead of adding more units into the game I'd be fine with moving bombards up an era. Of course I don't necessarily see the need for a Siege Cannon either if that's the case especially if bombards would get so little use.

The inherent problem regardless of timing is that you have ancient (really classical)- medieval - renaissance walls but only catapult - null - bombard. You either have a problem with obsolete catapults or you make one of the wall upgrades either useless or too strong. I think the best argument for Trebby is that the wall upgrades and the siege upgrades should be paired.

 

[Evie]

That's not a good argument for trebuchet (which doesn't make sense as a unit); that's a good argument for having both an ancient and medieval siege weapon (which should be the bombard).

And generally IMO the siege weapon should be a little later in the same era, not the same tech - representing the historical see-saw between new defenses forcing people to invent new siege technology.

The alternative, if you want to keep the concept of a new unit every two ages, would be to actually...remove medieval city walls and replace them with the keep or castle (that has a different defensive effect unrelated to siege buildings) as a medieval defensive building.

 

[Jkchart]

"Elephants deserve to fly as well".

And to fix your problem, there the R.E.D. Total War Mod that adds more Units into the game, including, wait for it, a TREBUCHET!!

I just want an OFFICIAL one though!!! i usually keep mod use minimal tbh but I’m tempted to look into it

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Ahem. Historical Timeline Time RE Walls and Anti-Walls.

7800 - 6500 BCE (so, Neolithic Pre-Era): earliest definite evidence of city walls, of mud brick, stone or rammed earth.
1300 - 700 BCE (Late Ancient-early Classical Era) earliest definite evidence of 'Siege Machinery' by Assyrians: mobile towers, rams, picks to chip out brick or mud-brick walls, etc
400 BCE (Classical Era): invention of the catapult in Syracuse, Sicily, including within a few years the stone-throwing catapult to batter walls.
350 - 301 BCE (Classical Era) Traction Trebuchets, using human power instead of counterweights, appear in China
587 CE (roughly, very end of the Classical Era) Byzantines adopt the traction Trebuchet, probably by copying Chinese examples, not independent invention.
1097 CE (Medieval Era) first mention of a counterweight Trebuchet, in Byzantium - within 30 - 50 years, they are in general use throughout the Arabic Middle East, Crusader States, and Byzantium, somewhat later in Europe
At roughly the same time, European stone keeps, city walls and castles start adding round or D-shaped towers in place of the (Classical Era) square or rectangular towers. These are architecturally more complex, but resist impact from catapults or trebuchets better than flat-walled towers.
1362 CE (Medieval Era) - first known Bombard, a 2000 pound wrought-iron built-up tube
1375 CE (Medieval Era) - first known use of a Bombard against a city wall - in France
1380 CE (Medieval Era) - Bombards first mounted on Venetian Galleys as Naval Weapons, and a Genoese Admiral is killed by one at the Battle of Chiogga in the same year.
1411 CE (Medieval Era) - first definite evidence of a cast iron Bombard - firing a 400 kilogram stone shot.
1439 CE (Medieval Era) first gunpowder Mine used in Europe to undermine a city wall.
1450 CE (end of Medieval - beginning of Renaissance Era) 'artillery towers' start appearing, added to city fortifications along with lower and thicker walls to defend against Bombards.
1460 - 1490 CE (Renaissance Era) first trunnions and limbers shown on cannon (in France) - the beginning of 'field artillery'.
1470 - 80 CE (Renaissance Era) first bastions start appearing (Italian city walls) and wedge-shaped towers and outer works, the first fortifications designed specifically as answers to 'artillery fire'
1475 CE (Renaissance Era) last known use of trebuchet or catapult artillery in Europe, at the Siege of Burgos in Spain.
1487 CE (Renaissance Era) first bastioned 'anti-artillery' fortification designed and built 'from the ground up' instead of modified from an existing fortification (in Italy)
1509 CE (Renaissance Era) "Pisan Ramparts" introduced as an emergency measure, but relatively low earth ramparts now start to replace the stone wall fortifications completely, being much more resistant to cannon fire of all kinds.
1537 - 1545 CE (Renaissance Era) Niccolo Tartaglia writes the first textbook on gunnery (exterior ballistics) and invents the Gunner's Quadrant, aiming device for artillery - the beginning of modern gunnery and artillery, or as it will later be said:
"It is artillery which adds class to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl"

All of which is a long-winded way of saying that:

City Walls predate the Start of Game by several thousand years.
Siege Towers/Battering Rams and their equivalents are End of Ancient Era devices
Catapults are Classical Era, as are Traction Trebuchets, which can be considered their Oriental Equivalent
Improved Stone Towers (Medieval Walls) are mid-Medieval Era
Followed immediately by the Counterweight Trebuchet
Bombards are late Medieval Era
followed at the beginning of the Renaissance Era by 'anti-artillery' bastions, ramparts, ravelins and other 'Renaissance Wall' devices.
The earliest Field Artillery is early Renaissance Era.

Note that, while there were immediate attempts to develop a 'counter' to the Bombard in the form of 'anti-artillery' fortification designs, there was no such development in reaction to the Trebuchet, which indicates (at least to me) that the counterweight Trebuchet was not as significant an advance on Siegery as the Bombard and later Siege Cannon.

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

Ahem. Historical Timeline Time RE Walls and Anti-Walls.

7800 - 6500 BCE (so, Neolithic Pre-Era): earliest definite evidence of city walls, of mud brick, stone or rammed earth.
1300 - 700 BCE (Late Ancient-early Classical Era) earliest definite evidence of 'Siege Machinery' by Assyrians: mobile towers, rams, picks to chip out brick or mud-brick walls, etc
400 BCE (Classical Era): invention of the catapult in Syracuse, Sicily, including within a few years the stone-throwing catapult to batter walls.
350 - 301 BCE (Classical Era) Traction Trebuchets, using human power instead of counterweights, appear in China
587 CE (roughly, very end of the Classical Era) Byzantines adopt the traction Trebuchet, probably by copying Chinese examples, not independent invention.
1097 CE (Medieval Era) first mention of a counterweight Trebuchet, in Byzantium - within 30 - 50 years, they are in general use throughout the Arabic Middle East, Crusader States, and Byzantium, somewhat later in Europe
At roughly the same time, European stone keeps, city walls and castles start adding round or D-shaped towers in place of the (Classical Era) square or rectangular towers. These are architecturally more complex, but resist impact from catapults or trebuchets better than flat-walled towers.
1362 CE (Medieval Era) - first known Bombard, a 2000 pound wrought-iron built-up tube
1375 CE (Medieval Era) - first known use of a Bombard against a city wall - in France
1380 CE (Medieval Era) - Bombards first mounted on Venetian Galleys as Naval Weapons, and a Genoese Admiral is killed by one at the Battle of Chiogga in the same year.
1411 CE (Medieval Era) - first definite evidence of a cast iron Bombard - firing a 400 kilogram stone shot.
1439 CE (Medieval Era) first gunpowder Mine used in Europe to undermine a city wall.
1450 CE (end of Medieval - beginning of Renaissance Era) 'artillery towers' start appearing, added to city fortifications along with lower and thicker walls to defend against Bombards.
1460 - 1490 CE (Renaissance Era) first trunnions and limbers shown on cannon (in France) - the beginning of 'field artillery'.
1470 - 80 CE (Renaissance Era) first bastions start appearing (Italian city walls) and wedge-shaped towers and outer works, the first fortifications designed specifically as answers to 'artillery fire'
1475 CE (Renaissance Era) last known use of trebuchet or catapult artillery in Europe, at the Siege of Burgos in Spain.
1487 CE (Renaissance Era) first bastioned 'anti-artillery' fortification designed and built 'from the ground up' instead of modified from an existing fortification (in Italy)
1509 CE (Renaissance Era) "Pisan Ramparts" introduced as an emergency measure, but relatively low earth ramparts now start to replace the stone wall fortifications completely, being much more resistant to cannon fire of all kinds.
1537 - 1545 CE (Renaissance Era) Niccolo Tartaglia writes the first textbook on gunnery (exterior ballistics) and invents the Gunner's Quadrant, aiming device for artillery - the beginning of modern gunnery and artillery, or as it will later be said:
"It is artillery which adds class to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl"

All of which is a long-winded way of saying that:

City Walls predate the Start of Game by several thousand years.
Siege Towers/Battering Rams and their equivalents are End of Ancient Era devices
Catapults are Classical Era, as are Traction Trebuchets, which can be considered their Oriental Equivalent
Improved Stone Towers (Medieval Walls) are mid-Medieval Era
Followed immediately by the Counterweight Trebuchet
Bombards are late Medieval Era
followed at the beginning of the Renaissance Era by 'anti-artillery' bastions, ramparts, ravelins and other 'Renaissance Wall' devices.
The earliest Field Artillery is early Renaissance Era.

Note that, while there were immediate attempts to develop a 'counter' to the Bombard in the form of 'anti-artillery' fortification designs, there was no such development in reaction to the Trebuchet, which indicates (at least to me) that the counterweight Trebuchet was not as significant an advance on Siegery as the Bombard and later Siege Cannon.

Good grief, that is long!! And I thought I had too much time on my hands.

 

[Sostratus]

The alternative, if you want to keep the concept of a new unit every two ages,

I hate this concept so much. Okay, I don’t feel that level of emotion, but it was a decision they made in the original game design and that turned out to be wrong.

That's not a good argument for trebuchet (which doesn't make sense as a unit)

It doesn’t even matter whether it existed in the right time periods or as a “unit.” The unwashed masses know that medieval siege weapon before gunpowder = trebuchet, and that basically seals the deal. The memes really are too strong here. What people want is a medieval siege engine, and if they wanted “medieval heavy cavalry” we would give them a Knight. Etc.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I hate this concept so much. Okay, I don’t feel that level of emotion, but it was a decision they made in the original game design and that turned out to be wrong.

I don't personally mind it at all. I think some of the units in Civ 5 weren't really needed such as Medieval Longswordsman or Modern Era Great War Infantry. Now I wouldn't argue against Trebuchets and Rifleman appearing, but I can live with or without them either way.
Not having Rifleman does make it to where at least Victoria's England and France have a military edge on other civs in the Industrial Era when it comes to melee units and taking over cities, and makes them feel more unique than other unique units, in my opinion.
The Khmer have that advantage too in the Medieval Era.

It doesn’t even matter whether it existed in the right time periods or as a “unit.” The unwashed masses know that medieval siege weapon before gunpowder = trebuchet, and that basically seals the deal. The memes really are too strong here. What people want is a medieval siege engine, and if they wanted “medieval heavy cavalry” we would give them a Knight. Etc.

You have a point where a bombard existing before you research Gunpowder would be even weirder than it appearing currently in the Renaissance Era. I'm not sure how techs would need to be shuffled in order to do that.

 

[Evie]

Some of us would like better than settling for pseudo-history clichés largely created by late nineties cideo games just because they're popular. Knights are a cliché, but at least the idea of a military force of knights moving around is something that has historical parralels, unlike the mobile trebuchet.

As for techs, I would move gunpowder earlier in the tech tree, and rename the current gunpowder tech which unlock the musket units something like matchlocks or the like.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Good grief, that is long!! And I thought I had too much time on my hands.

Actually, it was just pulling entries out of a Historical Timeline for game concept background that I've been compiling for over a year now. Compiling it from scratch, yeah, that would be too much to bother with all at once . . .

As for techs, I would move gunpowder earlier in the tech tree, and rename the current gunpowder tech which unlock the musket units something like matchlocks or the like.

Note that while the Bombard was in use by 1375 CE, the earliest 'hand gun' (outside of China, anyway) was the Hackbus, a very primitive and clumsy weapon mostly used braced against the top of a wall as a fortification defense weapon, and not in use until 1411 or later, and a Serpentine match-holder wasn't added to make a useful one-man portable weapon until about 1425 CE - 50 years after the Bombard, and it wasn't until 1470 CE that a shoulder stock was added to make a really effective Arquebus/musket that could be aimed - almost 100 years after the Bombard, and contemporary with the earliest trunnioned Field Cannon.

The Chinese could get earlier (as early as the 12th century) flamethrower gunpowder weapons (Fire Lance, gunpowder-filled 'bombs' thrown by traction trebuchets or catapults, short-ranged 'rockets', and gunpowder grenades, etc). But gunpowder giving a genuine Anti-Wall/Fortification weapon (Bombard) is late Medieval, followed by an Early Renaissance (1470 - 1500 CE) Tech giving both Muskets (Arquebus) and Field Cannon. Because muskets in the field were virtually never (in Europe) used alone, I would be tempted to have the first 'musket' unit be the Pike and Shot, represented by the Spanish Colunelas of the 1490s that combined arquebus, pike, halberds and short swords.

 

[Myomoto]

Medieval warfare is a giant mess in the base game. The only units to get upgrades are heavy and light cavalry, ranged, and anti-cavalry. Otherwise you're using Classical/Ancient Era units.

I highly recommend the Steel and Thunder mod from the workshop, as it adds in a longswordsman melee unit, a trebuchet, as well as a melee and ranged naval unit for the Medieval Era. I really think the game plays significantly better with those additional units in the upgrade tree.

Additionally it adds a line infantry melee unit in the Industrial Era to fix that gap as well.

 

[PiR]

When you mention Field Cannon, do we agree this is a Siege unit?
Because I'm really puzzled when I upgrade my crossbowmen into that unit.
If we look at the Civilopedia: "Field cannon – the earliest form of mobile gunpowder artillery – dates back to the wars of...".
However this is just a ranged unit in the game.


I agree that to have the units upgrade only once every two eras makes things messy. The concept was worth trying, but in the end, it does not produce great results.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

When you mention Field Cannon, do we agree this is a Siege unit?
Because I'm really puzzled when I upgrade my crossbowmen into that unit.
If we look at the Civilopedia: "Field cannon – the earliest form of mobile gunpowder artillery – dates back to the wars of...".
However this is just a ranged unit in the game.


I agree that to have the units upgrade only once every two eras makes things messy. The concept was worth trying, but in the end, it does not produce great results.

The game uses the 'field cannon' as a Ranged unit. The problem is, once a gun carriage or mount with trails and trunnions on the cannon itself was introduced (1460 - 1490 CE) , which allowed the cannon to be easily moved and aimed, ALL cannon were technically identical, and the only difference between Siege Cannon and Field Cannon was the size: anything firing a cannonball weighing more than about 12 pounds was a siege piece, anything 12 pounds or smaller was a 'field' piece for most of the 17th, 18th, and early 19th centuries.

In a Perfect Civ Game, I'd like to see the Field Cannon remain as a Ranged Unit, because it was in fact the primary Ranged (over 200 meters) weaponry of all armies from the late Renaissance to the end of the 19th century (upgraded in the late Industrial Era with rifled barrels, breechloading and explosive shells, superseded after 1900 CE by indirect fire 'modern' Artillery) but add the Howitzer as a Industrial Era Siege Unit - it was developed by the Swedes at the end of the 17th century (either very beginning of the Industrial or very end of the Renaissance Era) specifically to attack cities by lobbing explosive shells over the walls.

Technically, there are no dedicated 'siege' weapons in the Modern Era and later: regular artillery and bombers can do all the damage necessary to storm a city without having to dedicate resources to a siege-only set of weapons. The super-heavy guns developed by the Germans in WWII: Dora and Gustaf railroad monsters, were Mistakes and an incredible waste of scarce resources, since they each required the equivalent of a regiment of men to operate and were less capable than a single squadron of heavy bombers in range and weight of explosives delivered.