Flaws in the Faction Formula

[ShawnZero]

There are weight issues with the formula. Anyone who has played for a while tends to know which of them are slightly off and then you see some that are just not even in the same ballpark as the rest.

One that I like to use and I think is underrated by the formula is energy interest.

For instance

Zero Banking, The Banker, Zeronians, M, 2, Zero, M, -1,  0, 0, 1, 0,
  TECH, Indust, INTEREST, 10, SOCIAL, ----ECONOMY, Aquatic, 0,

Looking at this by the formula it should be around a 4 for power rating.

Or you could make something that is 15 points and matches the Data Angels.

Zero Banking, The Banker, Zeronians, M, 2, Zero, M, -1,  0, 0, 1, 0,
INTEREST, 10,

One of the factions needs to be a little luckier than the other but for the most part they are both going to absolutely break the game in under 100 turns.

I did a quick practice run with the top faction. I set up the main base and immediately went hunting. I got my first Isle of the deep around turn 2124 and found a pod worth 75 credits the next turn. Game over I win already. Even if my bases never make a single energy drop from here on out or if I ever find another pod or worm to kill I have locked the market down before 2200.

Year 2200 - Year 2125 = 75 Turns
105 Credits * (1.1^75) = 133,549 Credits.
The next round you will make another 13k in further interest. The Average Wonder around that time costs around 1500-2500 to buy outright.

I think that Energy interest should be 6 points for each 1% and 10 Points for each 1% past 5%.

As a Side note it is funny to watch Santiago demand apologies and 8,000,000 credits to end a vendetta.
Then you get the option to say. --Apologies yes but no more than 4,000,000 credits

 

[vyeh]

ShawnZero,

Welcome to CivFanatics!

There are weight issues with the formula. Anyone who has played for a while tends to know which of them are slightly off and then you see some that are just not even in the same ballpark as the rest.

I assume you are talking about the formula at Alpha Centauri Custom Factions (Faction Rating Formula). This was created to balance the original 7 factions and as a guide to custom faction creation.

One that I like to use and I think is underrated by the formula is energy interest.

For instance

Zero Banking, The Banker, Zeronians, M, 2, Zero, M, -1,  0, 0, 1, 0,
  TECH, Indust, INTEREST, 10, SOCIAL, ----ECONOMY, Aquatic, 0,

Looking at this by the formula it should be around a 4 for power rating.

An ECONOMY of -4 means that each base loses 3 energy, but only up to the amount of energy produced by the base. While it would probably make sense to add 4 points for an ECONOMY of +1 (and then all the faction would need is WEALTH to achieve +1 energy per square worked), it certainly doesn't make sense to subtract 16 points for -4 ECONOMY. The problem isn't weight (i.e. the coefficient for each term). It is that the formula is linear, when the effects of the social modifiers are not linear.

Or you could make something that is 15 points and matches the Data Angels.

Zero Banking, The Banker, Zeronians, M, 2, Zero, M, -1,  0, 0, 1, 0,
INTEREST, 10,

The fact that the Data Angels are 15 and the Pirates are 6 only shows how broken the formula is.

I did a quick practice run with the top faction. I set up the main base and immediately went hunting. I got my first Isle of the deep around turn 2124 and found a pod worth 75 credits the next turn. Game over I win already. Even if my bases never make a single energy drop from here on out or if I ever find another pod or worm to kill I have locked the market down before 2200.

Year 2200 - Year 2125 = 75 Turns
105 Credits * (1.1^75) = 133,549 Credits.
The next round you will make another 13k in further interest. The Average Wonder around that time costs around 1500-2500 to buy outright.

This assumes that you are generating enough income from your bases to cover maintenance of facilities and that you are able to maintain tech parity despite losing 3 energy from each base off the top. I am not too concerned about the former, but I think the drag on research could be hard to overcome.

I think that Energy interest should be 6 points for each 1% and 10 Points for each 1% past 5%.

So 1% interest would balance a faction that had no other attributes against the original SMAC factions. I think that is too high.

 

[Kilkakon]

Yeah I find that the formula is pretty broken. In my mod the factions would have the following power levels, although they play out pretty evenly (Pirates are still too strong though).

Blackband's Pirates: 1
Community of Rakis: 7
CyndaTech Industries: 1
Darrus' Adventurers: -1
Deadly Assassins: 0
Lukas' Rangers: 3
Mushroom Merchants: 3
Oblivion's Fallen: -1
Protectors of the Wild: 9
Seafoam Collective: 7
The Betrayed: 11
The Realm of Light: 9
The True Arena: 6
Vixen's Path: 4

Big ranges, and the weaker factions tend to have higher numbers.

 

[ShawnZero]

BTW I might as well introduce myself since I did not before. I have lurked in civfanatics for years but this is the first time I felt I had to add something. Alpha is what I consider the best TBS to date.

---

I agree with most everything you guys are saying which is why I started this thread. It seems that that formula is the standard people use to put a number on their factions' power lvls. I was just making an example of a badly weighted faction.

I have been playing this game on and off for years. As would I would assume is anyone else even reading this since the game has been out forever.

So 1% interest would balance a faction that had no other attributes against the original SMAC factions. I think that is too high.

Maybe I weighed it too high since I know how I would be able to abuse as little as 2%. And I am stacking the score vs a faction like the Consciousness whom tend to be the top faction of the AI in my games when I play. With 2-3% and nothing else I would probably have all but the most early projects. Mid Game I would be able to buy every enhancement for every city as soon as tech allows and buy new projects outright. If I was at war I would be able to have every city hurry troops every turn.

But I was just pointing out what I thought to be the most flawed of the formula. I think as a community we should come up with a more working model. I mean if over 500 quotes can be made for "You play too much SMAC if" I think we could do a little better on a weighing tool.

 

[vyeh]

With 2-3% and nothing else I would probably have all but the most early projects. Mid Game I would be able to buy every enhancement for every city as soon as tech allows and buy new projects outright. If I was at war I would be able to have every city hurry troops every turn.

I tend to use my energy credits as soon as possible for rush building to get turn advantage. While it would be great if my contingency fund earned interest, I don't tend to accumulate a large energy reserve.

But I was just pointing out what I thought to be the most flawed of the formula. I think as a community we should come up with a more working model. I mean if over 500 quotes can be made for "You play too much SMAC if" I think we could do a little better on a weighing tool.

First, there is the issue that the effects of the social modifiers are not linear. +2 ECONOMY is much more than twice as good as +1 ECONOMY. Even if we assigned weights for each level of a social modifier, I suspect that the combination of two different social modifiers is not simply the sum of the individual social modifiers. (For example, a research penalty and a probe penalty might be a lot worse than either a research penalty or a probe penalty because a faction would have no way of staying close in the tech race.)