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Food for Thought

Discussion in 'Civ2 - Game of the Month' started by Old n Slow, Jul 23, 2002.

  1. Peaster

    Peaster Chieftain

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    Ace - Thanks, but now I am more confused! I think the rules were changed, sometime between GOTM45 and now (GOTM69), to allow FCT and unnatural cities:

    http://civ2gotm.civfanatics.net/civ2gotmrules.shtml

    From your answer, it seems that rehoming food vans is part of the FCT ? But, if so (and if I'm right about the current rules), why allow FCT and not rehoming ?
     
  2. Duke of Marlbrough

    Duke of Marlbrough The Quiet Moderator Retired Moderator

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    The FCT is allowed in the GOTM. However, the payout will normally be better for those freight to build wonders instead. The largest wonder uses 12 freight. using those same 12 freight gives you 6 population; even if happy that 12 points. A wonder is 20 points.

    If someome has played a game so far that there are no wonders left then making enough points by population alone to offset the time penalty in the GOTM score would require quite a bit of effort.

    Rehoming freight is not the FCT, however, it can be used to abuse the FCT.
     
  3. Ace

    Ace Chieftain

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    Oops, my bad! I forgot about that rule change. Since the FCT is not of much use in GOTMs, I just didn't remember it. :blush:
     
  4. civdood

    civdood Chieftain

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    You mean the FCT is actually allowed in ANY comparison play? A deserved and historic Civ2 no-no, and for exceptionally sound, good reasons. ... And the rehoming of traders is not allowed? How strange. Very.
     
  5. Magic_gorter

    Magic_gorter Moderator Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

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    It´s a little bit difficult for me to understand the FCT rules because english is not my mother language.

    Is it allowed in a GOTM to build a foodcaravan in city A deliver the food in city B....then build a foodcaravan in city B and deliver the food in A....the build a foodcaravan in city A deliver the food in city B....then build a foodcaravan in city B and deliver the food in A etc.
     
  6. starlifter

    starlifter Chieftain

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    Yes, it is allowed.


    I've been gone since 2002, but it seems that in 2004 the FCT was allowed. So it is OK to do in GOTMs, according to my catch up reading.


    PS, The FCT thing really can be confusing, even if your native language is English. For now, you are 100% safe: use food caravans, and there is no FCT foul in GOTMs. :)



    PPS, The rules also say you cannot rehome freight/caravans now (unless there is strategic, reason, evidently), which is a "similar-sounding" but different issue. Basically, it means you cannot churn out freight (like food), and rehome them, then deliver. No more "middle men" (e.g., traders) in trade. ;)
     
  7. starlifter

    starlifter Chieftain

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    A very insightful question!

    First, I'll say for those that don't know: merely rehoming a food caravan/freight is not (and never was) the FCT!

    The FCT is when one city delivers multiple food freight, and does not suffer a food penalty.


    Rehoming can abuse the FCT even more: for instance, REHOMING multiple food freight allows one size one city to, in essence, feed several hundred cities (if you rehome all food freight to one tiny city, before delivering it). This avoids any real "penalty" for gushing out all that food, and "insulate" the food givers from the original game balance that Brian Reynolds tried to implement (e.g., for one city to be gorged on food requires another to give it up).


    Exactly why rehoming of trade freight is not allowed in GOTMs anymore, I have not yet had time to read about.


    There are 2 general schools of thought on trade rehoming:

    There are 2 ways to rehome: with the normal menu, and with a shortcut key. One works, the other does not. Clearly, there is a game bug in one of the 2 methods of rehoming.

    1. School #1: Rehoming trade is OK. The basis for this is Civ 2 units are allowed to rehome, the city menu allows trade rehoming, as normal rehoming of Civ 2 units, but the short-cut key, "h" is bugged. It has a pop-up window that says "You cannot change the home city of a trade unit." And if you do not use the short-cut key, you never even know about the shortcut-key bug.

    2. School #2: Rehoming trade is not OK. This view takes the opposite approach. The normal game menu is the thing that is 'bugged,' and the shortcut key is the 'correct' action (preventing rehoming).


    My view is the long-time School #1. Civ 2 allows it, it makes sense to me, it is consistent in a gaming sense, and so I strongly think it is OK to rehome freight in Civ 2. Gamewise, it is good.

    And (as if game abstractions are of paramount attention) it makes sense to me in "real life." The trade is produced in one location, must be transported (at great expense in some fashion, like RR, Airports, ships, roads...), and it takes TIME (except RR, wich is a gross abstraction in Civ 2 anyway). Especially in early game, the controlling city (the city that takes possession of a caravan) must wait for transport, and you are penalized by not having a delivered asset in the interium. The middle-man (the controlling city that homes the caravan) "contracted" the goods, and will then use his/her "supply chain" to resell at the best rate and reap the profits. In an extreme analogy, the goods might have been produced as "slave labor" then brought to the big city, added value, and then transported for delivery... at a good profit.

    As a game device, and at every level, trade rehoming is OK in my own book. But when Civ2 is played as a GOTM game, and the GOTM rules currently say no trade rehoming, then it is no trade rehoming in GOTMs (unless there is a valid strategic reason, like loss of the home city) :).



    As for the food rehoming, one philisophical reason I don't like it is that it can drive gameplay times up geometrically, and (despite what has been written in some places), can increase a GOTM score if done properly. The GOTM curve does mitagate it its use, and make it difficult for most players (not to mention very time consuming), however.


    This brings us to unnaturally large cities. Food trade is 100% OK and good in Civ 2; it is a good way, esp. in Fundamentalism, to grow. It is Fundy/commie's answer to Democracy's WLTP days.

    However, like the practice of check-kiting (a felony crime in America where you write paper checks from one bank, and write another check from another bank, making it "seem" like you "have" money you do not have... an unnaturally large checking account, or asset total), food-kiting (imagine the ultimate case of 254 size 127 cities... being supported with kited -- or imaginary -- food trade) is silly.

    In game abstraction, I suppose it could be OK for Civ 2 though. But the limit on "natural" city sizes (the size a city could achieve with its own food workers, subject to its food routes, without engineer support) makes for a better monthly game, due to time constraints.

    Without the time constraints, e.g., playing a HOF game for a year, I think its "OK" (I personally don't like it and so don't do it for HOF either). Shadowdale used to have a huge game with food trade, and enormous cities. It is not in the HOF anymore, so I'm not sure what the current Civ 2 community thinks in that regard.

    I should note that allowing the FCT in a GOTM does have one great advantage: it simplifies things, in that you need not worry about using food freight incorrectly. Secondly, since you cannot rehome food trade, you cannot set up central (like a hub-and-spoke model) a food-kiting network, though you can still kite food between individual cities (a decentralized network).


    Bottom line(s): :)

    TRADE REHOMING:
    1. I think trade rehoming is 100% OK, and should be allowed.
    2. The GOTM rule is that trade rehoming is currently disallowed.

    FCT:
    1. I think FCT is uncool, and would bog GOTM games down even more.
    2. The GOTM ruling is that FCT is allowed.


    (this post is 5499 characters long)
     
  8. Dong2Long

    Dong2Long Chieftain

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    I would agree with most of your analysis. However, I don't (as of yet) play GOTMs, so my food is not much for thought. Although FCT was abhorrent when I used to play many years ago, times change I guess. Rehoming of trade is totally fine, but as long as all play bythe same rule, it mainly affects certain early strategy. Late game is almost unchanged (post-airports) I'm opposed to huge cities, for what its worth.... :sad: :) :cool:
     
  9. starlifter

    starlifter Chieftain

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    You are invited to play then :) . I don't think people really use FCT in practice in GOTMs, since it takes a lot of time for little reward on the exponential adjustment curve. ;)
     
  10. WildPony

    WildPony Chieftain

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    This is an old thread, but i'm reading it for the first time so here's my insight.

    I'd much prefer celebrating my cities to max usable size (36 is possible in double production games), the 37th citizen is a forced elvis of no value. I can think of lots of things i'd rather build than a food caravan to make a city bigger when i can just celebrate it instead.

    If my enemy wants to rush food caravans to bolster his cities while i'm building vet battleships (or trade caravans, or engineers, or premium units of any kind, or a nice building) i feel that's win/win (he's happy, i'm happy). :lol:
     
  11. URUWASHI

    URUWASHI Chieftain

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    In my version of Civilization, whatever it is...rehoming of Caravans, can not be done.
    And I like the way it is...maybe some players can use the advantage...
    I guess, even IF I could, I will never use that edge.
     
  12. Prof. Garfield

    Prof. Garfield Chieftain Supporter

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    I think that food caravans and NON caravans can be rehomed using the "H" command, while to rehome a supported commodity caravan must be done inside the city by the menu.

    Under certain circumstances, caravan rehoming can be very powerful. Consider three cities; call them "Source" "Proxy" and "Destination." Proxy and Destination are two very large, developed, cities with the important trade improvements. Also, caravans delivered from Proxy to Destination do not block demand in Destination. Source, on the other hand, is a smaller city, without the expensive trade improvements, which can cost upwards of 700g to rush. Suppose Source produces a commodity, oil, that is demanded by Destination. Without Caravan rehoming, Source would have to deliver to Destination without Highway and Airport bonuses and with a smaller base trade, or rush the improvements and still have a smaller base trade (to say nothing of distance differences). Evidently for a lot of different cities, Source1, Source2, etc., this expense and diminished return can really cut into delivery profits.

    If, on the other hand, the Source Freight is rehomed to Proxy, this expense is saved in exchange for eliminating the permanent trade route. This is often a very good tradeoff. And there is another good part. Source can produce a food freight next turn and use it to help build a wonder, and the delivery will unblock the oil supply. If we remember the conditions of Proxy and Destination, deliveries from Proxy to Destination do not block Destination demand, so deliveries of oil could continue every other turn (or even every turn, if a second city rehomed a food freight to Source and then delivered it) for as long as the oil demand lasted. With lots of cities, Source1, Source2, etc., this can result in huge profits every turn.

    This being said, I don't usually engage in caravan rehoming. The last time I did it on a systematic basis was playing the Neutrals on the WWII scenario. It was also a major part of the strategy of the Stay in Despotism succession game I participated in a couple of years ago.
     
  13. WildPony

    WildPony Chieftain

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    hmm. i thought we were talking about the weak practice of rushing food caravans to make cities grow. this is what i was portraying as a wasted opportunity.... remember? :wavey:

    Rehoming trade caravans, by contrast, if allowed, is perhaps the single most powerful thing one could do in civ. Build up a size 20+ all ocean Colossus city, send all caravans to that city for rehoming before delivering them, preferably to enemy off shore destinations with demand.

    As many cities as you want from size one to size 8 can build caravans to be rehomed and every caravan, from however meek a background will recieve the full benefits of the super trade city.

    But in most circles it is not allowed... and i agree that this unnatural, magnificently powerful practice should not be.
     
  14. Magic_gorter

    Magic_gorter Moderator Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

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    To go back to you're original remark Wildpony....I agree that using food caravan's before a city has grown to it's max size (only by celebrating) is not the best thing to do. But, and I will only do it when going for a big score, after that point it's the best tactic to grow you're cities to huge sizes. After the time all my cities are on their max after celebrating the other civ's are dead or down to 1 city so anything else to build (besides spaceship) there isn't.
     
  15. WildPony

    WildPony Chieftain

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    hehe, fair enough Magic Gorter, good points.

    Anybody ever built up a single Super Trade City and experienced the power of rehoming trade caras with fantastic proliferation?... (Not to be confused with SSC which is quite unnecessary when u have 50+ rehomed super caravans). I say again, it is good and right that this practice is banned :wavey:
     
  16. Ace

    Ace Chieftain

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    Vans and Freight cannot be rehomed using the H key in the PC versions of Civ2. The only way to rehome them is to move the selected van/freight into a city, open the city screen, click on the unit and select "support from this city" from the menu. That is why rehoming is considered "cheating", since the manual says it is not allowed and when you use the H key, you get a message saying its not allowed, but, if you use the support line in a city screen you can rehome a van/freight. This appears to be a bug the designers didn't catch!

    And it is a very powerful tool. If you rehome a valuable commodity, like Uranium, from a small city to a large one with lots of trade arrows and than deliver it to another good trade city, you generate some serious coins and beakers!
     
  17. WildPony

    WildPony Chieftain

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  18. Ace

    Ace Chieftain

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    Wildpony, you are correct. This is, in fact, what the gotm rules say (last time I checked...).
     

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