food production in the modern age

[daimajin]

it strikes me that today, no developed countries actually have problems feeding their population, nor is its growth heavily dependent on available food.
saying that tokyo produces enough food in its "city radius" to support its population is ridiculous. instead, japan simply imports a lot of food. thus, when the modern age comes around, it should no longer be required to produce enough food to support a population, nor should city growth be dependent on it. rather immigration should control this.
of course, this is heavily dependent on the implementation of a concept, developing nations. either the weaker civs could be reclassified like this, or, a concept which i favor, this less than enviable role would be left to some of the "minor civs", which have been extensively discussed. because of the low birthrate in developed countries, these would no longer have an expanding population by the modern age. only developing nations would have this, and only immigration based on a number of factors could increase the population of a large civilization. food not produced in a developed country would simply be obligatorily bought from developing countries, which would cut off some revenues

 

[the mormegil]

Yeah, that's something that DEFINATELY needs to brought in. The ability to trade food, and weapons.

I'm not sure how immigration could be inserted into Civ. Maybe cities with very large culture would attract citizens. Or maybe on the number of buildings. These ctizens would come from smaller, less cultured cities with less buildings. Just like people move from small towns to big cities for work/education. If a city went into civil disorder there would be more chance of citizens leaving to avoid the unrest.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

OK, my feeling is that this idea should go back to BEFORE the modern era-and that it should apply to shields as well!
Here is how I reckon it should work:

1) You can move any 'excess' food and shields into your 'surplus' area-in your trade screen. In game terms, this surplus is in your capital.

2) You can 'vector' shields and food, from this surplus, to any city in your trade network.

3) When you enter trade negotiations, your 'surplus' will appear in the trading table, and can be traded JUST like luxuries and strategic resources-the value of these 'commodities' would be based on distance factors (between capitals), as well as differences in average tech levels and differences in wealth (i.e. a more wealthy nation can demand more for its 'commodities', on average, than a poor nation!).

4) There should be a 'wastage' factor for transporting food and shields to and from the capital. This 'factor' would be rated as X food/shields per hex moved. So, for instance, if your ancient age 'wastage factor' was 1/1, you would lose 1 food per hex moved-both to the capital, and again out to the recipient city!! This 'wastage factor' would drop as you got relevent technologies, and as you entered each new age. Shields would have a MUCH lower wastage factor than food-for obvious reasons. Lastly, certain civs would get a reduced wastage factor in each age. For instance, commercial and/or expansionist civs would get a lower wastage factor generally; agricultural civs would get a reduced food wastage factor, and industrial civs would get reduced 'shield' wastage factor. Crime rates should also effect your wastage factors!

This way, as the ages progress, your cities can become ever more specialised-into commercial hubs, industrial centres and 'Bread Baskets'-with the former moving food, via the capital, to the latter!
In addition, though, it would allow certain civs to become specialised in the kinds of commodities they can export!
Anyway, just a thought!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[socralynnek]

Good idea, but lots and lots of micromanagement...
And how should the stupid AI handle it...
I know, it's always the same old arguments against those ideas, but I think, they are often valid...

 

[the mormegil]

Well I guess they will just have make the AI cleverer then won't they.

 

[warpstorm]

Well I guess they will just have make the AI cleverer then won't they.

This is asking a lot.



The original premise is flawed though. Many countries of the modern world do have problems feeding their people (even so-called developed countries). You must just be lucky enough to live in a place that gets enough food.

The reasons are three-fold. First, there is lack of production. Either due to bad luck, weather, or whatever, there just isn't enough food to feed everyone. Second, there is lack of transportation. What food there is can't get to where it needs to go. This can be do to lack of infrastructure or a disruption in the infrastructure due to wars, strikes, etc. Thirdly, there can be willful hording of food. Some of the "haves" are not willing to share with the "have-nots".

A realistic model of food distribution should take all of these into account.

A fun model should require little or no micromanagement on the player's part.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Well, my method would not include much micromanagement at all! At least, no more than is currently existing in Civ3!
Basically, you click on the food bar, and a slider appears for you to move the amount of food you want allocated to the 'surplus'. If you are not on the trade network, then you can't move the slider AT ALL!
The same would work for shields. In the trade advisor screen. You click on the food and, again, you get a slide-bar. Once you have allocated how much you want to move OUT of the surplus. Then you click on one of the cities on your trade screen, and the food/shields will automatically go there. The beauty of this system is that, if you want to play by the old civ rules, you can. You just ignore all of the extra fancy stuff. If you like the extra management, though, then you have that option! Also, such a system would not be a complete panacea for poor city placement. After all, given the wastage that I mentioned, most ancient cities would have to be self sufficient for food and shields. Even in the later game, if you don't have well-placed 'Bread Basket' and/or 'Industrial' cities, then vectoring food and shields is highly unlikely to help you!
If this system were not to get approved, though, then what I would hope for is this: When you connect your city to your trade network, that city automatically recieves x% of the food/shields that exist in your nations trading cities. This amount doubles if you upgrade your connection from road to rail. For instance, your trade network currently contains 10 cities with a total of 100 shields and 150 food. You build a new city and hook it up to the trade network with a road. That city will gain +5 shields and +8 food from the internal commodity trade (assuming that the x% above was 5%). If the connection were upgraded to rail, then this would double to +10 and +16 respectively. Of course, this would only apply to cities on the same continent. Cities on one continent could get a % of the food and shields of another land mass if they are connected up by a harbour-double if it's upgraded to a commercial port. The numbers would probably be less, though, say 2% and 4% respectively. To use the example above, a new city on a new continent would get +2 shields and +3 food from the 'Mother Land' if it was connected by a harbour!
Under this system, any resource trade you enter into with another civ would also result in an automatic, underlying 'commodity trade' equal to about 1% of your total food/shields if overseas and 2% if they are on your same continent! The amount you get for this commodity trade would be based on the average tech difference between your 2 civs, the wealth ratio and the distance between your civs. Either party should have the option of cancelling their commodity trade-simply by clicking a button in the diplomacy screen-though it should cause a minor rep hit!
This system, though much more abstract, has most of the benefits of my earlier proposition but without any micromanagement. After all, it all happens automatically, with pretty much NO player input whatsoever. Good city placement still remains an issue, but it does provide a good way of fast tracking the development of new cities-especially in later ages! Obviously, though, the exact percentages you would get would greatly depend on play-balance issues!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[Mewtarthio]

I've been thinking about something very similar to your idea, Aussie Lurker, with one crucial difference: instead of each city taking a set amount of food from the surplus, you should be able to drag surplus food and add it to starving cities (or stagnant cities that you believe could sustain another population point if you could just get enough food in). Naturally, you could trade food from national surpluses to other nations. Donating food to nations with shortages (such as minor nations, if they are included) would improve your reputation (unless you were so far gone that the others rightly believed that you were just trying to suck up to their philanthropic sides).

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Actually, my idea is pretty much EXACTLY like yours-as that is what I saw it being used for. That is, you have one city that produces a large amount of surplus food. In Civ2/3, if you have a food surplus, your population simply keeps growing until it hits starving point-wheras cities with either no surplus or a food deficit will either die or stagnate. This seems ludicrous to me! In my system-at least, the one I prefer-you can have much greater control over the growth rates of your cities by moving surplus food in and out of storage according to your needs! As I said before, though, this would in no way prevent players from playing the game EXACTLY as they did in civ1,2 and 3! Players who want more control, though, can exercise it through this system!
An added bonus is, of course, the fact that you can trade your left over shields/food to nations who might want it!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[the mormegil]

This is great idea Mewtarthio and Aussie_Lurker!

If this isn't in Civ4 I will be extremely pissed off.