Foreign policy needs to give the illusion of no compromises.

[Hygro]

When I studied advestising one thing I learned was that if you want someone to buy something for a lot of money, start by demanding a helluva lottta money. If you stick to even what seems the most outrageous for long enough and serious enough (and not let any innuendo out about how its a scam), eventually you will wear down whoever you are dealing with. Maybe not all the way, but at least part way.

Recently I made the mistake in the Apolytan chat I attended of not pushing further than the balance of power. It wasn't huge, but it undermines people like Goonie who actually try for further and seem successful.

We need to stop the kissing up, even if we are weaker. That doesn't mean showing attitude--far from it. But that DOES mean sticking to our guns and only letting the stronger proposals heard by foreign nations.

Most all deals end in some sort of compromise. If we start by saying, "it's cool you can get everything east, but we want the balance of power" then theres a chance you might not even get that. If you were to say "We want everything south and west" like Goonie, we will more likely get the balance of power, even if we don't get the southeast.

 

[Donovan Zoi]

Hygro, the current administration had already come to that agreement, although it wasn't polled for some reason. I would however, be interested in seeing those previous chat sessions.

My issue with Goonie is not that he tried for more land. It was the way he handled the situation, as if the previous negotiations didn't matter. It makes us all look bad. Also, there is an element of mistrust on our side that permeates the entire conversation. To me, this is unwarranted.

Here, Fanatikou, take a look at the chat and decide for yourself.

The chat

I read this and I don't see us negotiating from a position of strength. I see this as the first step down the distant path to war. If Apolyton closes its doors to us, there go all the tech trades and other possibilities. We may even lose our "existing" land agreement!! We don't have claim to the land Apolyton is giving us yet. If we get too greedy, we will lose it all, and a possible ally as well.

 

[Hygro]

I know thats what our current administration's official idea is.

However this isnt being carried out to the extent that I would like it to.

We need to stay consistent. If that means banning talks with other nations except by our ambassador's then so be it.

 

[Hygro]

Goonie this is not the best work I've seen you do. You say our populous didn't agree on the old proposal? Well his didn't, and isn't going to on the new proposal, which causes significant friction. However, even with this hostile discussion, it can turn into something good.

Also, Octavian's arrival may have helped keep the peace but I think it hurt us, and deeply hurt Goonie. Now they won't trust Goonie.

Octavian's last remark "We prefer a loose structure" is doing damage foreign policy wise.

 

[Donovan Zoi]

We need to stay consistent. If that means banning talks with other nations except by our ambassador's then so be it.

If your this were the case, then only Octavian X would be handling matters at this point. Instead, we have an incoming ambassador, whose term hasn't even started yet, trying to close the doors on the current administration. I am not looking forward to what happens if the new ambassador is successful in keeping Apolyton entirely to himself.

Can we agree that at the very least that we as citizens should be able to access a transcript of any talks that may take place between our ambassador and Apolyton?

 

[Hygro]

Indeed we should get every chat transcript. Btw, are we arguing? I cannot tell.

 

[Donovan Zoi]

Not at all, Hygro.

We just have different perceptions of what is currently taking place here. I can totally get behind a "no compromises" policy if there wasn't an evolving relationship at stake. Unfortunately, there has been no passing of the torch, which I think would have been very necessary here. Our new ambassador has instead jumped the gun and decided what is best for us on his own, and has confounded Apolyton in the process.

I cannot condone the next 25 or so turns being played out with Apolyton in this manner. We are not strong enough to bluff like this yet.

 

[Bootstoots]

I agree with DZ here. We should pursue a "no compromises" policy with other nations and to some extent with Poly after our relationship is cemented. However, we must be extremely careful to do nothing that may damage our relations with Poly in any way until this alliance is cemented.

 

[Hygro]

We should not kiss up though. We should indeed compromise, but we should not offer one until we have put forth what we want, and have made sure that's unnacpteable. If we offer a compromise that too will be compromised and its one 25% benificial to us, while 75% to them.

 

[Cyc]

DZ, Goonie isn't trying to bluff anyone. I have been watching the situation now for a long time. We have not had any backbone in regards to keeping our information (which should remain private) to ourselves. Poly on the other hand has been very demanding and easily insulted on the slightest misstep. Have you taken a look at their gracious offering of intelligence to Octavian? Did it seem odd to you that their intelligence information dialouge box covered the two large cities of GCA? It may be fine to you but it is consistant with the standard give and take between our two nations. We give them everything freely. We as a nation are not even aware of how much of our confidential intelligence is laying on the Poly desk at this moment. That, I believe is what Goonie is talking about. We need to close the flood gates of information leaving Fanatikou (although it is probably much too late for that to do us any good).

Hygro is right in respect that keeping a stiff upper lip in negotiations is the proper way to things. I haven't read the chat log yet, so I'm not aware of the tone of the conversation. I know Goonie and I am aware sometimes he can let the dialog drift into uncharted waters, but I also know Octavian. Although he feels he is Poly's pet student, he's probably not in as deep as he thinks. Let's stop wondering where we're at in the eyes of Poly and take inventory where we stand as a nation. Having an open relationship with Poly is a good thing. Being their lap dog is not. I'm sure Octavian will shake enough hands and slap enough backs on his way out to heal any wounds Goonie might have caused. If he doesn't, we can send Poly a box of kleenex and get on with the important stuff.

 

[Donovan Zoi]

Cyc - First of all, when you talk tough and really don't have the resources to back it up, that's a bluff.

Now I will admit that I am still in the dark about the history of our relationship with Apolyton. But my "fresh eyes" tell me that over the past day or two, we have shifted gears much too rapidly from our usual dealings.

Let me preface this by saying that I too was on the bandwagon that voted for Goonie. It seems like the entire nation was looking for a change in this department, and for good reason. But what is happening here is too much too fast.

Before Ambassador-elect Goonie prematurely took the reins, it looked as if all was set for us to:

1. Settle the agreed-upon lands at our leisure
2. Build up our military at our leisure
3. Enjoy a peaceful relationship with our neighbor.

Now, in a few short days, we have Apolyton scatching their heads and wondering if they should even waste their time with us. This development, if allowed to escalate unchecked, could stand to cancel the entire deal for us. This could mean:

1. A mad scramble for the rest of the open land
2. Military uncertainty and lack of readiness
3. Deteriorating relations with our more powerful neighbor

While we would gain the first set of options by remaining somewhat beholden to Poly, it is the best we can expect considering our current situation. The second set of options will only lead to disappointment, as we would slowly come to realize that we are unequipped to compete with Poly for things they would have granted us in the first place.

Don't forget to check out the chat. It is in the second post of this thread.

 

[Zarn]

DZ, I never thought I would support you, but I do. As the FA minister for a long while, I seen our relationship with Poly go from distant possible friend to ally. We can't screw this up. This relationship is too valueable.

 

[Donovan Zoi]

Originally posted by Zarn
DZ, I never thought I would support you, but I do. As the FA minister for a long while, I seen our relationship with Poly go from distant possible friend to ally. We can't screw this up. This relationship is too valueable.

Thanks, Zarn....I think.

Seriously, much of our current success with Poly can be attributed to the calm way in which you handle your position. Not too overbearing, yet not too conciliatory.

Let's do what we can to save this thing. Please tell the Ambassador-elect that he calls no more shots until Turn 136. I would almost ask that he steers clear of the Poly embassy until then, but I will leave that up to you to decide.

If there is anything I can do to help our situation, please let me know.

 

[Cyc]

Well, after reading the chat that was posted, I agree that Goonie went overboard with his stance on the issue. There's a difference between keeping a solid grip on the negotiation process and badgering the guy on the other side of the table. Some people may call it rude, I call it misguided.

Goonie you need to develop your negotiation techniques into a more professional style. Just because someone else has dropped the ball doesn't mean you have to kick it out of bounds. OK? You could have kept a tough negotiating stance without making them feel like you were giving them the third degree. It's just a game. We're already in last place and there's nothing we can do to change that. We can still try to remain confidential without having our elimination make Poly the last place team.

 

[Noldodan]

Originally posted by Hygro
If that means banning talks with other nations except by our ambassador's then so be it.

Hear, hear!

 

[Cheetah]

Now what if I am the only active MSDG member on IRC and someone from another team comes and want a chat? What if they need to discuss a pressing matter?

Shall I just say that all communication must go through our ambassador, and that I am not authorised to talk with them?

 

[Hygro]

Probably. Or you could keep it to a level of small talk. I mean, you have some level of rights to talk (I think) so there's nothing legally holding you back but the mixed messages are really hurting our team.

 

[Donovan Zoi]

May I present Article L of our Constitution?

Article L. The President, Vice President, and Foreign Affairs Leader are de-facto ambassadors to all nations. Regular Ambassadors are elected each term. Ambassadors shall only be chosen when Fanatikou has made in-game contact with a rival civilization.

Under no circumstance shall Goonie disallow those three leaders from taking part in the negotitation process. While I have no problem with him being the only messenger(1 message), it is he who must take orders from them. And the three mentioned leaders should take great pains to ensure that we, the people, are satisfied with messages transfered to and from Apolyton.

 

[deshelbr]

Perhaps I'm missing the obvious, but is there any reason we wanted Ambassadors to be elected? It looks like the messenger here is as important as the message. Has anyone made the case that both should be at the discretion of the FA Leader?

I think it is kind of a shame that Zarn can't fire Goonie or Oct X if he felt it was necessary.