Free Religion vs. Organized Religion

[aimlessgun]

This question has been plaguing me. Usually in the past for some reason when I hit lib I didn't even think about it and just stayed with Org. Religion, but now I'm trying to think about it critically.

Just seems hard to quantify the benefits. My cities at the point of hitting lib are making buildings the vast majority of the time, so little of the 25% hammer boost is wasted. I guess the happy faces from FR are nice but with the city sizes at that point in the game is not usually an issue (also since I'll usually be stuck in Hered Rule ez happiness for a good while still).

And then there's the diplo angle of course. Maybe that's the deciding factor (having no religion could be good or bad depending)?

My gut is saying sticking with Organized Religion is the right choice but does anyone have some more reasoned thoughts on the subject?

Thanks

 

[mariogreymist]

I go with FR more commonly at that point (though it's about 50-50 that I got to lib under pacifism not OR). If I've been in OR (usually games where I am wonder-whoring) then all my religions are present in all my cities before I make the swap, meaning the happiness is usually not incidental, but a significant 3-4. The real deciding factors are the science and the diplo, though. If my kingdom is relatively small, and I intend to keep it that way, then I prefer FR/Bureau. The addtional 10% science is what keeps me winning key tech races, and trading and brokering those monopolies key to my survival. Moreover, the better late game diplomacy of FR is nice when a kingdom is small, and inherently lower on the power graph than behemoth AIs.

In fact, if there is a behemoth AI in a religion I don't possess, and my borders difficult to defend (so big as to require 3-4 stacks even w/railroads) I will choose FR regardless of how much/little I need the science bonus. If I can survive attempted invasions with ease, and don't need the science bonus, I will usually play in OR/FS. This is most common when I have a very large kingdom with a very strong military. Large kingdoms benefit more from the big, late wonders than small ones imo, so the bonus s are too nice to pass up, and I'll want to be building lots of multipliers when I have 20+ cities making a push for space.

I'd say my late game religious civic is about 80% FR, 15OR, 5Pacifism.

 

[TheDS]

In the past I've always been an OR man because I'm a Hammer addict. I love building stuff, and I love getting high Hammer counts to build it faster. I like leveraging the power of religion, you can get all kinds of good stuff out of it.

In general, it's going to be good to stick with OR until you've got your science bonus buildings largely built. Once you have nothing to build, it's better to switch to FR (and sometimes to State Property too) or to Pacifism to boost your GP farm or to the other one for the EXP bonus if you're spamming units.

That being said, everything in Civ depends on circumstances. You mention diplo. If everyone's Buddhist, you should be too. If everyone's everything, you'll probably do better under FR. If you've got 1 religion all over, you want to leverage it. If you've got none, you want FR, and if you've got lots of them, FR is good for culture, but if you don't need culture then stick to leveraging.

Now, if you want to throw all that out the window and learn how to build up your army a little sooner so you can play on higher levels or against humans, you'll need to learn how to get over that building addiction and nurture a bit of a unit-spam addiction. Throwing out a ton of buildings will help you be a late-game powerhouse, but it leaves you defenseless until then. Your weakness WILL be exploited. I'm trying to find a good balance of buildings and units right now to move my game up, and that means I've managed to do without lots of buildings I used to always build. I only survived my first MP game the other day because we weren't attacking each other (aka a friendly game).

 

[Galadrion]

I like sticking with OR for four main reasons: Sistine Chapel, AP, UoS, and SM. If you have all four of those, then stick with OR, spread the religion around, and build those temples, monasteries, and cathedrals! Massive culture development. Make sure your cities are well defended, and let your culture do your conquering for you. Plenty of spies on "cultural exchange program" duty can speed things up considerably, and in the mean time, you're pushing ahead in tech and wealth.

Of course, first you've got to secure those four. Therein lies the challenge...

 

[Dr.Null]

These days my religious policy is purely political.

If I can afford to have a religion, then OR or Pacifism or Theocracy are all great, depending on my needs. If I can't afford to have a religion, FR is my only "upgrade" choice.

 

[Negator_UK]

If many of my cities are building buildings then I take a good look at OR. If I need happiness or want to avoid religious-hate of AIs take a strong look at FR. If most of my cites are building wealth to tech something then FR gets a look in then too.

 

[Bezurn]

As others have said it depends on the circumstances you find yourself in. If you are stuck in the middle of a triple or more religious block diplo status, and don't want to piss off / go to war with either side, then FR is a very good choice. Shwedagon Paya is great early here if the situation calls for it, as it will lessen the chances that you will be demanded to choose a state religion.

Org, is great if you still trying to get key infrastructure up, such as forges and courthouses, or are going for late middle age wonders such as spiral mineret and angkor wat. I find Org less important if you are worried about getting universities and banks up, as you only need a few of those to unlock the national wonders, and if you have been specializing your cities wisely there is less gain to be had just for these few buildings, when you compare the science boost you can get to all of your cities without having to build wealth or research.

Also FR helps if you have few happiness resources due to bad land and stingy neighbors, allowing you to save hammers on temples and colosseums that you could do without.

Typically I play 50 50 on the matter, just depends on the situation I find myself in. But I play LoR mostly now so the religious civics have more dynamics with the revolutions to worry about if you have non-state religions in far away cities. Its either go FR or start building some inquisitors and missionaries for newly founded / conquered cities in this period of the game.

 

[Shurdus]

It has been said, but this is mainly a political choice. Sometimes I would love to be in FR but the diplomatic situation demands that I either keep a state religion or that I gear up for war. If I have all the freedom in the world to not have a religion I would look at my pressing needs. If I need to get a lot of buildings up then OR, if I have no such concerns then FR.

Also when spiritual one can switch between these in spurts, building every few turns, and changing back to a beaker focus on the next few. Spiritual is really really powerful for this possibility...

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Diplo + # religions is a very important consideration. Don't forget that your 25% building hammers come at a cost, also! 10% research and high vs low maintenance, to be exact. If you have much of your infra already you could come out materially ahead in absolute beaker rate via just the maintenance reduction, and you might weight that more highly than building improvements...especially if the remaining improvements are low-priority.

Usually a COMBO of diplo situation + cost reduction + (maybe) happiness merits a switch. Of course, you might be in pacifism instead too.

 

[DampRain]

IMO, there are two reasons for FR, diplo, and you desparately need the extra happiness from multiple religions (if this is the case, I think something isn't normal). So really, only one reason. Just remembered UN, okay maybe 3 reasons :\. I consider the 10% bonus neglible, since as I understand it is +10% not *110% and when your cap is going for 400 beakers a turn an extra 10 or so isn't thaaaat useful.

Otherwise you're other 3 civics are so much better.

Build infra faster = more beakers
Stronger units = take more land = more bakers
Mass GPP = more beakers

 

[TheMeInTeam]

IMO, there are two reasons for FR, diplo, and you desparately need the extra happiness from multiple religions (if this is the case, I think something isn't normal). So really, only one reason. Just remembered UN, okay maybe 3 reasons :\. I consider the 10% bonus neglible, since as I understand it is +10% not *110% and when your cap is going for 400 beakers a turn an extra 10 or so isn't thaaaat useful.

Otherwise you're other 3 civics are so much better.

Build infra faster = more beakers
Stronger units = take more land = more bakers
Mass GPP = more beakers

FR can be a deciding UN factor (or even AP, ironically).

The 10% is like any other beaker multiplier: if your base commerce slider % + spec output is 100, you get 10 beakers. Keep in mind, however, that this comes without any hammer investment for infrastructure at all, and possibly anarchy (though SPI or golden age switch during another civic switch avert anarchy). You also once again discount civic costs. Of the religious civics, only pacifism is cheaper at base, and then only in practice if you keep units to a minimum.

The FR isn't anything to sneeze at when the AI sends you 2 religions/city, as happens sometimes.

Also note that the returns for stronger in infrastructure AND for GPP both diminish over time ---> eventually you have the most important infrastructure, and you've popped enough great people that the boost from pacifism is no longer appealing. As the power of the other civics drop, FR gets stronger by comparison, although if you're going to throw down theocracy remains viable all game.

FR can also be used to stuff AI into FR, either via UN or espionage . Nothing like breaking up a little religious hug like suddenly converting somebody to FR and then pouncing, possibly dragging their former BFFs into the war on your side .

 

[DampRain]

I would have thought FR as a deciding factor would definitely come under diplo .

I tend to discount costs of civics, since the difference in my experience tends to be quite small compared to your empire, so the benefits almost always outweighs the cost. Then again I don't play deity where such things might kick me in a painful place . Although according to that mechanics article, its only like 5% more from imm to deity, and experience indicates a gold difference of max 20 gold between civic change cost (obviously SP, free speech, etc. has a substantially larger effect). But basically high, med, low upkeep rank relatively low to me in terms of if I want the civic or not.

Although I do nevertheless have to agree, FR is what I usually end up with either from UN, or as you said diminishing returns, although at that point in the game you may be in the winning position or not. I find it some what ironic to end up choosing FR either because, it isn't viable to run a religion, or everything else has gotten so worse O_o.

FR can also be used to stuff AI into FR, either via UN or espionage . Nothing like breaking up a little religious hug like suddenly converting somebody to FR and then pouncing, possibly dragging their former BFFs into the war on your side .

This is the kind of diplo stuff I actually need to work on substantially. With regard to changing other peoples civics, is it mainly to do with working around the favourite civic bonuses? Or do some people find the economy related changes to be worth the cost of forcing a change? Excluding FR since you've mentioned it.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

This is the kind of diplo stuff I actually need to work on substantially. With regard to changing other peoples civics, is it mainly to do with working around the favourite civic bonuses? Or do some people find the economy related changes to be worth the cost of forcing a change? Excluding FR since you've mentioned it.

Other civic forces to consider:

- AI out of slavery: They're not in this, they can't whip more units. If you aren't in slavery yourself (or you are SPI), definitely consider doing this.

- AI into pacifism: Nothing like giving the spammy warmongers a lil something to chew on.

- AI into not-SP: Some AIs spam workshops and like SP, or settle other lands heavily. Screw them up.

- AI out of vassalage or nationhood: You don't want them in either if you are not and going to war, but the latter is fairly rare.

- AI into their favorite civic: a good play for diplo since you're obviously running it if you are swapping them here

- AI into heathen religion: this can get pretty dirty, unfortunately you have to be in that religion yourself. Good for creating strife or if you are SPI or have built Redentor.

- AI out of police state: Shaka, monty, G. Khan, get these asp-hats out of their favorite civic. Cut their military production and add to the minimal amount of WW they see. Unless, of course, you're working with them .

- AI into serfdom: hell, if you're going to run a garbage civic, might as well take the world with you :/.

 

[aimlessgun]

So many evil ideas....

 

[beestar]

AI into SP when the AI has a corporation like Mining, Inc. This will free up the extra metals resources and the AI will now trade you its surplus aluminium.

 

[DampRain]

Ahahahahahaha, I like those thoughts.

Btw though, I thought AI war weariness was practically neglible anyway

 

[mariogreymist]

Spi is evil for espionage/diplomacy moves. There simply isn't a more powerful trait (if diplo/esp is central to a game), as it lets you do just sick things like TMIT is describing. A trick he didn't describe:

Switching the AI which controls the AP out of AP religion right before an election, followed by taking the AP religion yourself to gain the AP. 5 turns in a heathen religion is a low risk, if you can grab the AP for it. This is particularly important if you are plotting war against the current holder of the AP. The last thing in the world you want is to see "return Cuzco to its rightful owner" even going up for a vote. I stole all those wonders fair and square, and I ain't givin em back!

 

[IAM]

If I'm not in Organized relegion then I'm probably in Theocracy for war.

 

[mirthadir]

The opportunity costs around Lib are highly dependent upon what you are planning on doing.

Getting PP, RP, Communism, biology, banking, demo, and chemistry faster can completely offset the bonus from OR in a few extreme cases; you can literally get more production in the short run out of FR and faster tech than you can staying with OR. The most notable example is the democracy run with the Chem/SP/RP line a close second; due to the magic of monopoly vs non-monopoly trades FR can easily be 10 turns of having all your towns get a hammer (and eman speed growing them) or not. It takes a long time for the OR bonus to catch up with that. Likewise, getting to Steel, rifling, or Mil Trad quicker can be worth more hammers than OR can ever yield.

If you are set up for a draft war; OR can't compete with cheaper happiness (though normally theo is superior to both). Going for a lib nat, build the Taj, while teching gunpowder and then mass drafting Janus or Oromos -> tech to steel; makes OR much weaker than getting cheap easy happiness from multiple religions.

If you are flipping out to an all rushbuy economy, FR is almost a gimmee. OR doesn't help you with cash rushing and your key techs are banking, lib, pp, communism, and demo; all but banking are low infra techs.

Ultimately at lib there are a lot of things competing for your attention, the value of :beakers: vs varies heavily. Also as so many multipliers open up just before lib (unis, oxford, obs, banks, etc.) it can flip the otherway - the from OR can give you more than running straight up FR.

Terminal religious civics for me tend to be: FR, Theo, and OR, roughly in that order. Post astro the value of being first past the post for a tech goes up heavily (thanks to more trading options, inherent prizes, and more variability in tech paths). Theo is a roughly +20% increase in efficieny. With heavy use of CRIII units gunpowder defenders take a beating. Or is the default choice for when I need a religion (or need OR for favoured civics), but don't want to go to war.

As far as screw-the-AI civic changes, I'd like to nominate environmentalism. Overpriced corps or losing mass food/production/free distance maintenance; this is particularly useful if you can spam horrid corps (SE/AlCo under some circumstances) into their land.

Also you can get really good mileage by flipping a runaway AI out of eman/FR/HR, torching their resources, and perhaps getting them mass embargoed. Selling them overpriced "strategic resources" because you've burnt all their mines just further handicaps them. One vs one you can get pretty good tradeoffs, but if you have multiple competitors this isn't so hot.

 

[budweiser]

If I am going to play through to the end of the tech tree, at some point, I will decide that I want that 10% increase on science. For me, that is the deciding factor. Up intil then, i am usually spamming buildings so I want the hammer bonus.

EDIT: OP - Get the heck out of HR and use rep. The science bonus will be more attractive given all those specialists.