G III Sigma

Yes, but a temple takes much less time to build. For example, I think you get a lot more culture by building a temple on turn 20 and the Colossus on turn 40 than you get with the Colossus on turn 37 and the temple on turn 40. I think the only reason to go Colossus first would be that an AI might build it between turns 37 and 40, but that hasn't seemed to happen to me very often.

I used to think that, but I was wrong, and I'll illustrate.

I just played a game where I built a temple in 2630 BC and a library in 1750 BC. In 1275 (turn 245), the temple had given 794 culture, and the library 1032 culture. If I went to 1880 (turn 405), the temple would give 1434 and the library 1992, or 500 CP. In a game like this, we are probably finishing with about 100-125 CPT, so that's a 4 turn difference.
 
For scientific civs, it's 3% when you are first to research a tech. For non-scientific civs, it's 5%.

In a game like this, it's probably normal to not get an SGL. cause you won't be first to research all that many techs.
 
For scientific civs, it's 3% when you are first to research a tech. For non-scientific civs, it's 5%.
You mean the other way around right? :hmm:
In a game like this, it's probably normal to not get an SGL. cause you won't be first to research all that many techs.
Counting 3% chance per tech, on my 16 techs so far the chances of not getting an SGL is ~61%, so I guess I'm not that badly off (with 5% it's 44% chance of not getting any). But I think I will be the first to quite a lot of techs more in this game, so I'll keep hoping. :)
 
yes :)

And my analysis above, while correct (building collosus then temple gives more culture than temple collosus) is very, very misleading - the impact of choosing one way or another is probably not even a full turn - my guess is that it's a difference of 30-40 culture, total.
 
A temple on turn 20 will yield 1494 culture up to 1880 (turn 405), and a colossus on turn 40 will yield 2094 culture, total 3588. A colossus on turn 37 will yield 2109 culture, and a temple on turn 40 will yield 1396 culture, total 3505. So yes, the first scheme proposed by Chamnix wins out by 83 culture, which will probably mean a turn in the end. But I wouldn't risk losing the colossus over that difference, seeing how I failed to build it in 6 out of 7 games in a row (in the last I got the Oracle instead though, which is clearly a lot better :D).

AT, I didn't quite understand what your analysis was trying to prove. :confused:
 
I used to think that, but I was wrong, and I'll illustrate.

I just played a game where I built a temple in 2630 BC and a library in 1750 BC. In 1275 (turn 245), the temple had given 794 culture, and the library 1032 culture. If I went to 1880 (turn 405), the temple would give 1434 and the library 1992, or 500 CP. In a game like this, we are probably finishing with about 100-125 CPT, so that's a 4 turn difference.

Unless I'm misunderstanding you, I don't think this example is relevant. The question is not whether the temple or the Colossus would provide more culture by the end of the game, the question is whether the temple and the Colossus combined would provide more culture than the Colossus and the temple combined.

Oops - x post
 
:woohoo:
I've won my first game on Sid! :D

Brought my game to completion, managed to bring the end date down to 1828 AD. Got one SGL just in time for ToE. And I managed to leader fish for an MGL in the early IA too, so I could get HE and Pentagon. I totally forgot about Wall Street, so I was probably some 20-30 turns late with it before I remembered, but it wouldn't have changed my end date at all, since I ended at 20007 culture and 117 cpt.

At least I have a date now, a slightly lower bar than sanabas' for the rest of you to beat. I might try to run a game as Byz too, see if I can improve my own date somewhat. :)
 
Nice job, Niklas :thumbsup:! I still haven't found The Map, but I've given myself a deadline of September 30 to at least find a map that I am relatively sure I will play to the end - I'm still only midway through the large deity GOTM, and I don't want to have to rush at the end.

I will say that it is amazing how losing the Colossus by 1-2 turns 3 games in a row can change your perspective on how important an early temple is :lol:.
 
Well done! :clap:
 
woohoo!!

I have now tried 3 different methods:

1) Byzantines, get collosus, then expand, 50 turn writing, sprint to literature.
2) Persia, ignore collosus, sprint to CB, 50 turns to writing, rush pyramids and make city #2 the wonder city for the prebuilds.
3) Carthage, same idea as #2 (collosus and Pyramids makes for a VERY early GA), but with faster contacts and a coastal city that can get lighthouse and magellans.

It is a challenge!!
 
Thanks guys. :)

A question, this is my first HoF game and I didn't know you wanted those intermediate saves. I have a bunch of different saves from this game, but not for those specific dates. Could I upload some saves from dates that are reasonably close instead? I know they are optional, but still.
 
oh, I miss those optional saves by a fair amount a lot - and they *are* optional, after all :)

If you use CivAssist, there is a setting where each turn will be saved for you, in compressed format. Since I set that, I haven't missed a save yet!!
 
Haha, I had that setting turned on as well way back from GotM 51! Alright, then I have all the saves I need, thanks AT. :)
 
If you had other dates, that would be fine. They are optional, but they do help to not have your game excluded.
 
Thanks Marsden, then I know. But I had the proper saves thanks to CAII so it's alright. The site seems down now when I go to update, but I think I should add a short write-up too before submitting.

EDIT: I also agree completely with Chamnix (and sanabas) on rushing for Philosophy instead of Literature, you can pick Lit as the freebie and get both techs, two SGL chances, and two possible wonders instead of one.
 
I found my map – it’s not over yet, but this is the best start I’ve had by a good margin, so this one is getting completed. I figured I’d write up the beginning before I forgot everything…

I kept to sanabas’ excellent advice for the most part. I'm playing as Spain against Inca, China, America, Zulu, Mongols, and Maya – lots of expansionist tribes, but mainly no one who starts with Ceremonial Burial or Alphabet and no scientific tribes.

My settings:

Size: Large
Landmass: Archipelago
Water: 70% Water
Climate: Wet
Temperature: Warm
Age: 3 Billion Years
Barbarians: None
Aggression: CA II says normal, but I’m pretty sure it was less aggressive

I had originally been using 80% water, but, as ridiculous as this sounds on Sid level, I found the tech pace to be too slow. The AI never met each other quickly, and I was stuck in Despotism and in the Ancient Age too long.

I also started out using least aggressive AI. After a few games when I refused a demand with a 2-3 warrior military, and the AI still didn’t declare war, I changed to less aggressive. I wasn’t going to play a map unless I had an island to myself anyway, so having AIs fight each other periodically and give me war happiness seemed like a good thing.

Here is the start:





22 spt at size 12
25 spt after Despotism
28 spt after Engineering

I can’t swear to what my exact build order was in this game because I didn't take notes until I was sure this start would last, but typically I built:

Curragh
Worker
Worker
Colossus (I learned my lesson!)
Temple
Settlers then curraghs/warriors

Workers irrigated one cow and mined the other.

Research was always Writing at the minimum followed by Philosophy, Literature, and generally Currency at the maximum (the Great Library or trades provide the rest). Trade for Bronze Working using Ceremonial Burial (plus gold, if necessary – I had no success with starts where I traded Alphabet). Get as much mileage out of Ceremonial Burial (and Alphabet once I had Writing) as possible – pick up techs like Pottery, Mysticism, and Warrior Code.

When 1 tribe started building the Temple of Artemis, start a granary in the 20K city. By the time the granary prebuild runs out, a second tribe should have Polytheism, and you can trade for it and switch the granary build to the Temple of Artemis. When Philosophy completes, then pick Monarchy as the free tech and switch to the Hanging Gardens – this was about a 50/50 proposition. Sometimes I ended up with a 280 or so shield Mausoleum of Mausolos, but since there really wasn’t anything else to build immediately, I thought it was worth the risk.

This game, I got the Hanging Gardens and then revolted to Monarchy.

QSC:

4 cities
20 citizens
5 workers
3 warriors
4 curraghs

Madrid – 404 culture + 16 cpt; projected win date 2578 AD.



Yes, I did have ivory (I think I have a monopoly on it), so I got the Statue of Zeus setting off my Golden Age and built the Great Library during my GA. My second city will be a 4-turn settler factory to expand finally.

By 1000 BC, only the Mayans had declared on me, but at that point war happiness from just 1 tribe was enough to keep luxuries at 0%.

By the time I reached the Middle Ages in 570 BC, the Incans and the Mongols had joined in the war happiness crusade. The Mongols were the only ones to land troops (a steady stream of only 2 at a time and always in the same spot, of course) and provide my catapults and handful of Ancient Cavalry with many leader-fishing opportunities.

Entry to Middle Ages:



Yes, I even tried to build the Great Wall because I had nothing else to build, but I didn’t get it.

Madrid at entry to Middle Ages (570 BC) – 798 culture + 29 cpt; projected win date 2040 AD. 4 Ancient Age wonders – The Colossus, the Hanging Gardens, the Statue of Zeus, and the Great Library.

In 170 BC, I got my first (and to this point only) Great Leader who built an Ancient Cavalry army and enable me to build the Heroic Epic.

In 150 BC, the Great Library finally provided Republic, so I revolted again to try to pick up my research pace.

Here is the situation at 10 AD:





The Chinese have given me a 4th dose of war happiness.

No SGLs so far.

Madrid – 1719 culture and 38 cpt; projected win date 1973 AD, and I should have no problem getting the Sistine Chapel this game.

My problems:

1. I only have 1 luxury so I am living off war happiness, and all my wars make trade routes sporadic so I can’t trade for any additional luxuries.

2. My research is still slow – I am going at about 10-12 turns per tech, so there are still going to be periods when I don’t have any culture to build.

3. I don’t have any iron, and nobody is showing an extra source. There is iron on some of the small unclaimed islands, but none of them are very convenient. I don’t think I’ll be rushing to the Industrial Age since it won’t do me any good. I’m hoping for another couple leaders to build empty armies so I can start thinking about attacking overseas.
 
Looks like a very solid game so far! In comparison with my game you're ahead on pretty much all accounts. I didn't enter the MA until 70 AD, and at 10 AD I had only 1379 culture with 27 cpt.

I agree that the slow tech pace at 80% water can be somewhat problematic later on, but I also found it very valuable to manage to have a lead on the AIs, so I could actually build the wonders I researched. It indeed seems you may have a very good shot at Sistine's though, and if you can keep up your lead you'll be far ahead of me when you finish. But 10-12 turns per tech is also faster than my research, I took 17 turns to Monotheism and 13 to Theology (and this some 32 turns later than you), so I think you're doing just fine research-wise too.

Regarding iron, I didn't have any either, and no saltpeter either. After Navigation I managed to settle a mountaneous island far away from home, got me iron within borders and a rather long road to a saltpeter colony. I never really missed the iron before that though, the SoZ kept me well provided. I did have 2 luxuries though, could trade for 2 more since both China and Mongolia were reachable via coast. That's the only cloud I see on your horizon, but WH should be able to handle that.

Here's my cultural progression with milestones, for your continued comparison:
__10 AD: 1379 culture, 27 cpt
_190 AD: 1576 culture, 35 cpt (Colosseum, 2x on GLib)
_340 AD: 2029 culture, 41 cpt (Cathedral, 2x on lib)
_690 AD: 3478 culture, 51 cpt (Sistine, 2x on SoZ)
_700 AD: 3533 culture, 55 cpt (University)
_860 AD: 4417 culture, 59 cpt (Copernicus)
1000 AD: 5246 culture, 62 cpt (Magellan)
1110 AD: 5934 culture, 68 cpt (Newton)
1340 AD: 8172 culture, 77 cpt (US, 2x on col and cath)
1375 AD: 8719 culture, 85 cpt (Shakespeare)
1450 AD: 9997 culture, 88 cpt (ToE)
1500 AD: 10879 culture, 90 cpt (Hoover)
1610 AD: 12860 culture, 91 cpt (Intel Agency)
1625 AD: 13137 culture, 95 cpt (HE finally)
1650 AD: 13613 culture, 96 cpt (Mil Academy)
1700 AD: 14607 culture, 108 cpt (Wall Street, 2x on Uni and Sistine)
1730 AD: 15256 culture, 109 cpt (Pentagon)
1800 AD: 18421 culture, 113 cpt (UN)
1828 AD: 20006 culture, 116 cpt (a completely useless SETI)

Good luck with the completion! :)

-------------------------------

On my own front, I've tried a number of games as the Byzantines, but the lack of CB to trade away early on is a big hindrance. And even in the games where I keep Alphabet close (no need to trade early since you have BW for Colossus already), I get beaten to both Writing and Philo by the Aztecs. I'm starting to think they are a real pain to have in the game. I'm actually thinking of throwing them out in favor of the (gasp) Vikings, who are the only other civ around that aren't Commercial, Seafaring, Religious or Agricultural, the last being the supposed problem with the Aztecs, the research too fast due to their fast expansion.

I think I'm going to try Chamnix' advice and run 70% water, and go back to Spain again. There are so many things I could have done better in my previous game that I wish to give it another shot.
 
Aren't the Vikings seafaring?

I had problems with the Aztecs getting Philosophy as well. I ended up replacing them with the Mayans who always seemed to be the first to Polytheism which was good, and they also seem to be one of the only AI that will research Engineering in the Middle Ages.
 
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