G-Major LIX

Besides, if you have Reformation, you get secondary beliefs, and it's easier to keep that other religion in second place than it is to overcome it later. A missionary from the AI's holy city will get you just enough believers to buy faith buildings.
Wait, what? I thought you only got the pantheon of second most popular religion. Also, according to this article http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=521454, To The Glory Of God acts like a founder belief, so you wouldn't be able to use it if it's a part of an AI religion, sadly.

Overall I think it's probably too much hassle to try and control AI religions as well as your own. In an ideal situation you do win 4 happiness per city, but that's just not going to happen... Too much faith required, too unreliable. Maybe it's a good idea to avoid actively spreading your religion for a while after you've enhanced though, get as much out of AI religions as you can, then amass a prophet/inquisitor army and flip a ton of cities in 3 turns. Probably won't get too much, but every little bit helps.
 
Oh, shoot, right, you only get the pantheon. Bah humbug. :P

Yeah, it doesn't hurt to delay spreading your own a bit, but with so much to micromanage, I can't risk having a new city convert and lose 4 happiness!

EDIT: On that note, I really think Ceremonial Burial is a mistake. Tithe is SO powerful in a Time game. 10cities@20citizens = 50gpt. 50cities@20citizens = 250gpt. 100 = 500gpt.

This gpt allows you to get happiness & growth buildings up MUCH faster, which in turn allows you to grow faster. I believe if you choose Ceremonial Burial you will end the game with more Happiness than population. Growth truly is the more limiting factor.

Sure, with 100 cities, that extra 50 happiness is an extra 500 pts, but *only if you cap out your growth potential*. Compare that to Asceticism which with 100 cities is worth 1000 pts, or Religious Center, which is worth 2000 pts with 100 cities. I don't know if CB is worth the opportunity cost. It's not clear to me whether Asceticism is even worth it. Maybe Swords Into Plowshares, even on King, is better.

Of course, the problem is, SO MANY other things have to go right before you're actually growth-bound. Unless you're going for a gold medal, CB is probably a smarter choice... but I'm not sure.

I guess the real question is: Can you cap out your growth potential with Ceremonial Burial? Has anyone here capped out growth in a time game using CB? (And by "capped" I mean < 2 excess food in every city)
 
On that note, I really think Ceremonial Burial is a mistake. Tithe is SO powerful in a Time game. 10cities@20citizens = 50gpt. 50cities@20citizens = 250gpt. 100 = 500gpt.
I have similar thoughts about Goddess of Love as the pantheon choice. +1 happiness per city is great and all, but that means you're giving up a lot of early faith generation, which would've allowed quicker pagodas and faster religion spread to get that founder belief rolling. I dunno, I'd probably take DF+CB over GoL+Tithe personally.
 
I have similar thoughts about Goddess of Love as the pantheon choice. +1 happiness per city is great and all, but that means you're giving up a lot of early faith generation, which would've allowed quicker pagodas and faster religion spread to get that founder belief rolling. I dunno, I'd probably take DF+CB over GoL+Tithe personally.

In the Time games where I've gone with pagodas, it just doesn't scale well. By the time you've spammed 150 cities you're in the info era, and each building is 800 faith. Which leaves you with a dilemma: It takes 150 turns to place 150 pagodas generating 800fpt. That's just too slow. You'll have shrines and temples up within 10 turns of placing a city, which uncaps growth... so yeah, honestly though I don't know.

I think there are so many ways to skin this cat. Like, what build order do you go with as you place new cities? For me it's shrine/granary/temple/aqueduct/market... but I've chnaged my mind about that 3 times during this one playthrough! :P
 
I haven't played much yet, just thinking out loud so far. I'd like to have at least a somewhat clear plan before I commit to a 500-turn game...

I don't have a whole lot of Time VC experience, just the Netherlands gauntlet a while ago. I remember I went for Jesuit Education there and in the end I just ended up buying all the buildings with cash because faith couldn't keep up. I also took Pagodas and Mosques... and automated workers... didn't play that one optimally. :)

I'd imagine one faith building is manageable though. I just really want the culture from Pagodas for this. Pagodas and Temple happiness maybe? As for the build order, again, I only really played one Time game ever, and my build order was very similar to what you describe. Shrine/Monument/Granary/Temple/Aqueduct in whatever order, then specialist buildings. Probably the workshop first, then all merchant ones.

By the way, is it true that the hidden sites from Exploration give a ton of culture, like a Great Writer? I've never dug one.
 
I haven't played much yet, just thinking out loud so far. I'd like to have at least a somewhat clear plan before I commit to a 500-turn game...

I don't have a whole lot of Time VC experience, just the Netherlands gauntlet a while ago. I remember I went for Jesuit Education there and in the end I just ended up buying all the buildings with cash because faith couldn't keep up. I also took Pagodas and Mosques... and automated workers... didn't play that one optimally. :)

I'd imagine one faith building is manageable though. I just really want the culture from Pagodas for this. Pagodas and Temple happiness maybe? As for the build order, again, I only really played one Time game ever, and my build order was very similar to what you describe. Shrine/Monument/Granary/Temple/Aqueduct in whatever order, then specialist buildings. Probably the workshop first, then all merchant ones.

By the way, is it true that the hidden sites from Exploration give a ton of culture, like a Great Writer? I've never dug one.

They *can*, but don't always if I recall. And because of the order in which I take policies, I end up getting that policy after my World's Fair blowout/expansion. So, policies are 40k+ and it's a drop in the bucket. :P

I suppose if you had MAD culture generation you could get the extra 6 policies of Exploration prior to World's Fair, but that's in addition to 4 from Aesthetics, 4 from Piety, 6 from Tradition, 5/6 from Liberty, at least 1 commerce, 2 (non-free) pts of Freedom... That's just A LOT to get before World's Fair.

One faith building IS manageable, but I like to burn all my faith on Great Writers and Engineers for World's Fair, so unless you have MAD early faith, enough to get all pagodas before the Renaissance, I typically save my faith after that. Which takes them out of relevance until the later expansion. /shrug
 
They *can*, but don't always if I recall. And because of the order in which I take policies, I end up getting that policy after my World's Fair blowout/expansion. So, policies are 40k+ and it's a drop in the bucket. :P

I suppose if you had MAD culture generation you could get the extra 6 policies of Exploration prior to World's Fair, but that's in addition to 4 from Aesthetics, 4 from Piety, 6 from Tradition, 5/6 from Liberty, at least 1 commerce, 2 (non-free) pts of Freedom... That's just A LOT to get before World's Fair.

One faith building IS manageable, but I like to burn all my faith on Great Writers and Engineers for World's Fair, so unless you have MAD early faith, enough to get all pagodas before the Renaissance, I typically save my faith after that. Which takes them out of relevance until the later expansion. /shrug
Ah, okay. But it's the last 8 turns worth of culture just like a GW right? And are the hidden sites marked differently on the map? Digging them all 8 turns after the World's Fair would be so nice. Speaking of which, why not delay it to ~t400 or even later so that you can get all the culture policies and buildings/wonders first?
 
Ah, okay. But it's the last 8 turns worth of culture just like a GW right? And are the hidden sites marked differently on the map? Digging them all 8 turns after the World's Fair would be so nice. Speaking of which, why not delay it to ~t400 or even later so that you can get all the culture policies and buildings/wonders first?

Yes they're purple and named as Hidden Sites so you can tell. But, if you haven't done your expansion, you very likely only have 2 regular and 2 hidden sites in your borders.

As for delaying World's Fair, I used to be all about that but it delays the critical happiness policies you need for rapid expansion.

In theory, the ideal World's Fair is long enough after you hit Satellites to plant a city next to each Site and NW, and build a World Wonder + Broadcast Tower in each city. But man, it's hard enough to do everything just right in a time game as it is... That just takes it to another level of difficulty. I suppose it would be feasible, maybe a 20-city World's Fair around t300, but I think the value of expanding on t260-t270 is too high to ignore.

And don't forget, social policies for the sake of getting more policies is not valuable. They're only useful (IMHO) for unlocking growth. A policy is very few points in the final score. So, if the whole point of unlocking full Exploration before World's Fair is to get more policies... well then it's unnecessary, because you can get *every* useful policy without doing so, and by spending the extra 3 policies you've probably broken even at best. (Earning 3 extra policies as a result of those hidden sites)

However, it's likely I'm missing something here. The problem is, testing these theories takes 300 turns of near-optimal play. So maybe hidden sites are key, I dunno. :)
 
I'm starting to rethink my new city build order, by the way. Now it's shrine, temple, market, workshop, rush-buying a harbor & landsknecht for gold + 3 happiness. With a market, workshop, religion and a city connection, the per-city unhappiness is fully compensated for by size 6. (+2 global happiness, -1 local unhappiness)

On top of that, The landsknecht + harbor + shrine + temple + market gives + 6 local happiness. So a size 6 city breaks even. From there the build order is a bit trickier, but this allows you to spam cities without ever having to stop and wait for happiness to catch up.

Cities on land are trickier. You need an additional 2 specialists to break even, and you have to pre-build roads.
 
I rolled a starting location which had a lot of space and like 7 unique luxuries in reach... so I couldn't resist and went 10-city Trad opener/Piety opener/full Liberty. :)

Decided not to take any food or faith beliefs and got Goddess of Love, Ceremonial Burial, Pagodas and Temple happiness. I've captured a capital with the Mosque religion... So I have a question. If I faith-buy a prophet/inquisitor in that holy city, will he spread AI's religion?

Tech is slow but not terrible, looking like a ~t165 Printing Press. Will likely finish Tradition and clear the map by t190ish. This is fun so far. Biggest issue has been gold, building maintenance hurts. Used a GE on Machu but still can't go much above +15 gpt.
 
I rolled a starting location which had a lot of space and like 7 unique luxuries in reach... so I couldn't resist and went 10-city Trad opener/Piety opener/full Liberty. :)

Decided not to take any food or faith beliefs and got Goddess of Love, Ceremonial Burial, Pagodas and Temple happiness. I've captured a capital with the Mosque religion... So I have a question. If I faith-buy a prophet/inquisitor in that holy city, will he spread AI's religion?

Tech is slow but not terrible, looking like a ~t165 Printing Press. Will likely finish Tradition and clear the map by t190ish. This is fun so far. Biggest issue has been gold, building maintenance hurts. Used a GE on Machu but still can't go much above +15 gpt.

Yes, it should be a faith unit of that religion. Which can work both ways. You can found or extend a religion with a captured great prophet, if I recall. ;-)

Yeah, gold is a real issue. Which is why I'm so high on Tithe. In my current (albeit slow) game, my gpt is about +1500 with 60 cities. Macchu + Tithe + Full Commerce +Full Exploration is MAD money. :D

I can buy a harbor, library, university and a landsknecht every turn and still have money left over. Which is *necessary* since I'm planting multiple cities/turn, and at least 2 cities hit size 8 every turn and need that university to balance happiness. This slow start is going to be the death of my final score though. Even planting 2 cities/turn I'm still filling the map too slowly. Also, I'm averaging 35 turns/policy since I started expanding. Each new city really increases the total cost dramatically.
 
Yeah, I went Ceremonial Burial because I remembered my final gpt in the William gauntlet was something stupid, like 15000 I think? So I figured gold wouldn't be a problem in the long run. Besides, when CB really kicked in I never went unhappy until conquest, despite settling like 12 cities early. Even hit my natural Golden Age before getting the "free" one from Liberty. :goodjob:

Yay, halfway there. T250 screenshot:
Spoiler :
2015-04-16_00001.jpg


Almost finished settling the mainland, 12-15 cities to go. Got a city in the New World as well, will use it to build and buy more settlers. Happiness going down, gold per turn going up. Tech is slow, but that's fine, at least I get to enjoy 400 faith Pagodas. Policy-wise I'm sitting on full Trad, full Liberty, Piety opener, Aesthetics 3 and Freedom 3. Wondering what to pick next... Opening Patronage is tempting because of Forbidden Palace. Commerce is tempting because of Big Ben and Mercantilism, and potentially +42 global happiness if I finish it. There's also Exploration, Reformation, and a couple more Freedom tenets. Still so much to left do! Settling a new city delays the next policy by like half a turn. Not too bad but still annoying.
 
Yeah, I went Ceremonial Burial because I remembered my final gpt in the William gauntlet was something stupid, like 15000 I think? So I figured gold wouldn't be a problem in the long run. Besides, when CB really kicked in I never went unhappy until conquest, despite settling like 12 cities early. Even hit my natural Golden Age before getting the "free" one from Liberty. :goodjob:

Yay, halfway there. T250 screenshot:
Spoiler :
2015-04-16_00001.jpg


Almost finished settling the mainland, 12-15 cities to go. Got a city in the New World as well, will use it to build and buy more settlers. Happiness going down, gold per turn going up. Tech is slow, but that's fine, at least I get to enjoy 400 faith Pagodas. Policy-wise I'm sitting on full Trad, full Liberty, Piety opener, Aesthetics 3 and Freedom 3. Wondering what to pick next... Opening Patronage is tempting because of Forbidden Palace. Commerce is tempting because of Big Ben and Mercantilism, and potentially +42 global happiness if I finish it. There's also Exploration, Reformation, and a couple more Freedom tenets. Still so much to left do! Settling a new city delays the next policy by like half a turn. Not too bad but still annoying.

If you're 3 pts into Aesthetics I assume you're missing the "+33% to culture in cities with a World Wonder". For me that would be highest priority, but since you've already started expanding, it may be moot. Once the expansion starts you're looking at one policy every 20-30 turns max until World's Fair. When are you planning on pulling the trigger on WF? In my game someone else built Forbidden Palace so I still haven't opened Patronage on t400. The extra happiness from gifted luxuries is nice, but is it worth 4 policies?

I still haven't finished Rationalism, and I might not until the end. I don't need the finisher to get GS, and the free tech will be just as useful on t499, so I think I'll just wait, which will get me the free GP from finishing Piety to help spread religion on some isolated islands, and allow me to get 16 more turns of Golden Age from the free Aesthetics GA. (which is all I need, rush-bought GA will buy me 64 turns)

I expect I'll only get about 3 more policies in the final 100 turns so that will probably be all the policies I get. I got 3 culture boosts from Hidden Sites, but that only amounted to 3/4 of one policy. (Costs are now at 60k+ per policy)

Still not done expanding on t400. Too slow. Pulling the trigger on World's Fair so late really hurt me. I doubt this will end up medaling but I don't have the patience to make a second attempt... turns are ridiculous even with "only" 100 cities.
 
If you're 3 pts into Aesthetics I assume you're missing the "+33% to culture in cities with a World Wonder". For me that would be highest priority, but since you've already started expanding, it may be moot. Once the expansion starts you're looking at one policy every 20-30 turns max until World's Fair. When are you planning on pulling the trigger on WF? In my game someone else built Forbidden Palace so I still haven't opened Patronage on t400. The extra happiness from gifted luxuries is nice, but is it worth 4 policies?

I still haven't finished Rationalism, and I might not until the end. I don't need the finisher to get GS, and the free tech will be just as useful on t499, so I think I'll just wait, which will get me the free GP from finishing Piety to help spread religion on some isolated islands, and allow me to get 16 more turns of Golden Age from the free Aesthetics GA. (which is all I need, rush-bought GA will buy me 64 turns)

I expect I'll only get about 3 more policies in the final 100 turns so that will probably be all the policies I get. I got 3 culture boosts from Hidden Sites, but that only amounted to 3/4 of one policy. (Costs are now at 60k+ per policy)

Still not done expanding on t400. Too slow. Pulling the trigger on World's Fair so late really hurt me. I doubt this will end up medaling but I don't have the patience to make a second attempt... turns are ridiculous even with "only" 100 cities.
I'm just used to calling it Aesthetics 3 because that's what it would say in the diplomacy tab in game. But yeah I have the +33% culture policy. Just trying to decide what to do now.

I've passed culture from world wonders, culture from natural wonders and going to get culture from landmarks next turn. I was thinking about going for International Games next for the free policy as well as 3 happiness.

I think I have two real options right now

- keep steadily expanding, both on the mainland and empty continents. Delay World's Fair to ~t440, then burn all the Writers and hopefully have all cities grow to their fullest potential.

- stop expanding for now, amass Settlers, place them in the right positions and found a lot of cities rapidly after a T310ish World's Fair, hopefully finishing the expansion by t340-350.

Not sure which way to go though. Both have advantages I think.
 
I think there's a case to be made for delaying World's Fair if you can get enough of the happiness policies without it. Like, go the exact opposite route of what I do now: Don't take any culture-oriented policies, and instead just go for happiness policies until you have some of the best ones, then try to plant every city and get them to like size ~25 before a late (t350) world's fair, at which point you try to get them all to max out by t500.

That *could* work, if you finished Tradition, Liberty, took 1 point of Piety, 3 points of Commerce, 2 pts of Exploration and 4 pts of Freedom. That's 22 policies, which is non-trivial, but perhaps doable by t250without World's Fair?

Let's try an example... with 150 cities at 30 and the capital at 40, that would give:

+3:c5angry:/city = -453 Global. (Per-city unhappiness)
+1:c5angry:/population = -4540 Local. (Per-population unhappiness)
+1:c5happy:/10citizens = +454 Global. (Aristocracy)
-1:c5angry:/2citizens in the capital = +20 Global. (Monarchy)
+1:c5happy:/city = +151 Global. (Meritocracy)
-5%:c5angry:/population = +(4540/20) = +227 Global. (Meritocracy)
+1:c5happy:/lighthouse/harbor/seaport = ? - Hard to measure, let's say 80% of cities qualify on Terra, so +3*120 = +360 Local. (Naval Tradition)
+1:c5happy:/bank/mint/stock exchange = ? - Hard to measure, let's say only 8 cities qualify for a Mint, so +2*153 and +1*8 = +314 Local. (Capitalism)
-1:c5angry:/2 specialists = ? - Hard to measure, let's assume half of cities qualify for a windmill, so 75 cities get 11 specialists, 75 get 12, and the capital gets 17 including guilds but only gets half the value, so 5.5*75 + 6*75 + 8.5*0.5 = 412.5 + 450 + 4.25 = +866.75 Global. (Universal Suffrage)
+1:c5happy:/city = +151 Global. (Goddess of Love)
+1:c5happy:/2 cities = +75.5 Global. (Ceremonial Burial)
+2:c5happy:/temple = +302 Local. (Religious Centers)
+2:c5happy:/pagoda = +302 Local. (Pagodas)
=1:c5happy:/National Wonder = +11 Global. (Universal Healthcare, assuming no NVC)
+4:c5happy:/luxury * 23 luxuries = +92 Global. (assuming here we don't have the commerce or patronage policy, including Jewelry & Porcelain, but *this is only valid until we puppet the Mercantile CS*)
+1:c5happy:/Natural Wonder = +5 Global.
+3:c5happy/Mercantile CS Ally = ? - Hard to predict, but averages 3 CS, so +9 Global. (Again, only valid until we puppet them)

Wonders:
+4:c5happy: = +4 Global. (Chichen Itza)
+5:c5happy: = +5 Global. (Eiffel Tower)
-10%:c5angry:/population = +(4540/10) = +454 Global. (Forbidden Palace)
+2:c5happy:, +1:c5happy:/castle = +2 Global, +151 Local. (Neuschwanstein)
+10:c5happy: = +10 Global. (Notre Dame)
+4:c5happy: = +4 Global. (Taj Mahal)
+5:c5happy: = +5 Global. (Circus Maximus)

Buildings:
+2:c5happy:/circus = ? - Hard to measure, let's assume 25% of cities qualify, so +76 Local.
+1:c5happy:/stoneworks = ? - Hard to measure, let's assume 25% of cities qualify, so +38 Local.
+2:c5happy:/coliseum = +302 Local.
+2:c5happy:/zoo = +302 Local.
+2:c5happy:/stadium = +302 Local.

This accounting assumes you're *not* taking Urbanization until the end-game, which is relevant because most cities won't have Medical Labs until the end-game anyway. You lose about 225 Local from Hospitals and Water Mills by not taking this early, but you save two policies. Bear in mind that this accounting assumes that all cities have stadiums, which is not true for *quite a long time*. This is relevant because you're typically building about 10-15 buildings before you get to stadiums, realistically. During mass expansion almost none of your cities will have one. So I think size 25 is more reasonable than size 27 prior to World's Fair.

Also, FYI, I count population unhappiness reduction as global happiness because you end up with more population than unhappiness, so the excess local happiness counts towards global unhappiness reduction. BUT this is only true after you have all 11 specialist slots, which means you're at roughly size 16 and have 15 buildings. So, keep in mind that growth would have to be very carefully managed for this all to work.

So here's the tally:

Total Global Unhappiness:
453

Total Local Unhappiness:
4540

Total Unhappiness:
4993

Total Global Happiness:
304 + 20 + 151 + 227 + 866.75 + 151 + 76 + 11 + 4 + 5 + 454 + 2 + 10 + 4 + 5 + 92 + 5 + 9
= 2391.75

Total Local Happiness:
360 + 314 + 302 + 302 + 151 + 76 + 38 + 302 + 302 + 302
= 2449

Total Happiness:
~4833

Since the local unhappiness exceeds the local happiness, all of our +happiness counts. But, we're in the red by about 150 unhappiness. Which means we can really only go up to about population 28 per city this way. (1pop*150=150 happiness)

We'll need the rest of the happiness policies to get size 30. However, a late World's Fair should net us +1/garrison (+151), +302 from Hospitals/Medical Labs, ~+75 from Water Mills, and +50 from luxuries, which will boost our cap to about 33/city.

Given the amount of food tiles each city can work, getting beyond size 30 in most cities is just unrealistic anyway. And stopping at size 27 would give us some breathing room.

I'd conclude from this that a late World's Fair is valid if and only if you can get almost all the happiness policies without it, prior to expanding. However, I think this is possible, because if you subtract the 4 policies from aesthetic and 3 policies from Piety, you can probably get all this by t250, maybe by burning a few GW. But, it would have to be a GREAT culture game to get 24ish policies by then without World's Fair. When going for a t240 science victory, completing Commerce, Rationalism, Tradition and 6 policies of Freedom is doable, but that's without conquest and the resulting per-city culture penalties.

Still, in retrospect this might be a better plan after all... Hmmm. Certainly better than my late-early t310 World's Fair/t320 Expansion :P Sigh. I should have done all this math BEFORE making my attempt.

The problem always boils down to one simple thing:

Getting enough happiness to allow you to expand quickly and start growing early.

This is necessary because of how long it takes to grow cities to their population happiness limit. It takes *time* to get a city to size 30. If you start at t400 it's too late. T350 is about as late as you can get away with, because with 150 cities, trade routes just don't cut it. They can boost 10 cities every 30 turns. So, between T410 and t500 only 30 cities get the benefit. And a good 20 cities are going to be planted on snow unless you have tremendous map luck. Those 20 cities need all the trade route love or they'll never reach their limit. So even though happiness unlocks growth, growth is the true limiting factor. But without happiness you can't plant cities.

So, in order to not be growth-bound, you need to focus on happiness... but of course focusing on happiness has some negative effects. You lose +25% growth from religious beliefs. +25% growth is the difference between being size 30 in 150 turns and size 30 in 120 turns. Those extra 30 turns can cap your score just as much as happiness.

Of course, map luck plays a big part. One extra maritime CS = +150 food empire-wide... *as much as 10 cargo ships*!!!

4 one-tile islands = ~1000 pts. If you end up with a Terra that looks more like an archipelago, you will just flat out win the Gauntlet, even with a late expansion.

Anyway, I think I've been focusing too hard on thinking you need *all* the happiness policies. I think you can get away with a much earlier expansion if you skip the culture policies, and in the end, that might mean you need so many fewer policies that it breaks even. Hmm. Also, Standard really changes things. Small Lakes was like 32 cities max, which makes trade routes 5x more relevant, and maritime CS 5x less relevant. On the other hand, caravans are half as useful as cargo ships. But anyway, the more cities you have, the more excess happiness you can have during expansion, if you think about it. If your existing cities all generate 1 more happiness than they need, with 20 cities you're at +20 and can plant 5 more. With 60 cities you're at +60 and can plant 15 more. Thus, the viable rate of expansion increases exponentially as your number of cities increases, meaning that if it takes 60 turns to plant 30 cities, it only takes 90 turns to plant 60 cities... at least in terms of happiness limits.

This exponential limit increase is becoming increasingly noticeable in my current game, where at ~t400 my happiness will jump up as much 40-50 pts in a single turn just from finishing buildings. I'm having trouble spawning settlers fast enough to keep up!
 
Very interesting. It's hard to ignore Aesthetics though, isn't it? You likely lose at least one, maybe two Great Writers by delaying it for so long, plus you'd almost certainly have to burn a few GWs to have everything done by t250, plus you have no way of faith-buying GWs as you delay Reformation too, so you lose a LOT of World's Fair bombing potential. But, as you said earlier, taking policies just for the sake of taking policies isn't the correct mindset here. So perhaps rushing all the happiness policies first and ignoring everything else is the correct play? But in the long run Aesthetics pays for itself I'm certain, every policy you take there is a very strong one except the half happiness to culture one.

In my game I actually didn't research Radio so I couldn't pick International Games. I had Radio on 1 turn left because I didn't want to enter Modern, and then forgot to switch to it before the vote. Oh well, proposed World's Fair instead. I'll probably pass it and get a 280 WF or so. Or maybe delay it a bit more, or just vote against it. Not sure yet... 6 turns just took 40 minutes. So I'll have some time to think about it. :)

Rushing Archeologists and Broadcast Towers now, I want to make the most out of my WF. Took Patronage opener, will go Commerce to Mercantilism next, then get Reformation during WF and faith-buy some GWs. Hopefully this will be enough to get all the policies I want.

By the way, your calculation is missing happiness from luxuries (+84 IIRC) and finding Natural Wonders, don't remember how many of them there are on a Standard map, 5 think?
 
You're right. Is that 84 including Porcelain etc? Also, +3 happiness per Mercantile Friend, average is 3, so another +9. I'll update it. This still leave you short of being able to get every city to size 29. (And going to size 30 is free, so basically, you're stuck at size 28)

However, that extra ~100 happiness would leave a lot more room for comfort. Maybe it would be reasonable to skip the national wonders happiness policy AND both exploration policies. That takes the total down to 19 policies, and you could probably still get to size 25. Seems more reasonable than 22 policies. And would allow you to either do an earlier World's Fair, or an earlier expansion with a late World's Fair. It seems like the limiting factor on how soon you can expand is # of policies you need beforehand.

EDIT: Hmmm! With 3-4 cities of your own, & 6 capitals, so 9-10 cities... if you don't annex any of them until you've got all the policies you want, you can probably get 19. But! Perhaps this makes the case for starting OCC + puppets. Those cities will focus on money, growth and happiness buildings, so the culture might only break even, given the reduced rate of culture gain. On the other hand, with a beefy salt or petra Capital, most of your culture is coming from Guilds, Wonders & CS Allies, not culture buildings... So this could potentially lead to great things...

Darn it! Now I want to restart and try an "OCC" warlike start. You can completely ignore liberty, which saves 6 policies, until you're ready to annex! That means you only need 13 policies in the early game, and you only need 3 Liberty Policies to get the "reduced culture cost/city" policy. Happiness/Growth/Science might be an issue without being able to control when science buildings are built though... Hm.
 
I took 84 from my game, I actually don't have a single mercantile CS in it. With Porcelain and Jewellery that'd be 92.

OCC-ish sounds good but I wouldn't play like that myself. It's going to require so much managing when you actually start expanding. Too many settlers to get, too many tiles to improve and roads to build, too many buildings to build and buy. I'd go crazy! I prefer the steady pace and in the long run I think the results are going to be similar anyway.
 
Ok, I updated that mega-post to 92. That yields a final city size of 33 if you have all the bonus happiness. I don't think it's realistic to grow all cities to 33 though... there just isn't enough food/turn to go around.

As for semi-OCC, I mean, there's nothing stopping you (except distance) from building roads and working tiles in your puppet cities. You should have plenty of workers after conquest, enough to work the tiles in 7 cities. (OCC + 6 capitals)

But, yes you'd have a lot of catch-up on your buildings at the end. And I don't think the extra policies work out... it's a dead heat almost:

Each city other than the capital (with Liberty) increases the cost of a social policy by 10%.

So, with 4 self-built cities and 6 capitals, you're at cost times 1.9, but with 1 city and 6 puppets you're at 1. That's an effective discount of 47%. Of course, you also generate less culture. (25% less and there's a good chance the culture building doesn't exist, especially the all-important broadcast tower)

But, most of your culture is coming from the capital and cultural CS allies, so it could e worse.

If you have a salt or petra capital, (IE enough production to build all the culture wonders, guilds, and culture buildings) and all the Cultural CS allies, here would be the comparison:

Assuming 22 policies (one free from Oracle)

OCC total culture cost of 21 policies:
25 + 45 + 90 + 160 + 245 + 345 + 465 + 595 + 745 + 905 + 1075 + 1260 + 1460 + 1670 + 2120 + 2365 + 2620 + 2885 + 3160 + 3445 + 3745 = 29425 (*0.9 for Cristo = 26483)

10-city cost of 21 policies: 55908 (50317)

OCC culture generation: (With the wonders you would have time to build, not ALL wonders)
Capital:
Buildings: 2 (monument) + 1 (amphitheater) + 1 (opera house) + 1 (museum) + 1 ( broadcast tower) + 2 (pagoda)
= 8
National Wonders: 18 (guilds) + 1 (Circus Maximus) + 2 (Hermitage) + 1 (Heroic Epic) + 1 (NC) + 1 (National Epic) + 1 (Oxford) + 1 (Palace)
= 26
World Wonders: 1 (Alhambra) + 1 (Angkor Wat) + 1 (Big Ben) + 1 (CI) + 1 (Colossus) + 5 (Cristo) + 2 (Globe) + 1 (GL) + 1 (HG) + 1 (Pisa) + 1 (Mausoleum) + 6 (Neusch) + 3 (Oracle) + 4 (Parthenon) + 1 (Petra) + 1 (PT) + 1 (Pyramids) + 1 (Sistine) + 1 (SoL) + 1 (Sydney)
= 35
Multipliers: 33% (Broadcast Tower) + 20% (Alhambra) + 50% (Hermitage) + 20% (Sistine) + 50% (Sydney)
= +173%
Total: 95.5

Expos: (not puppeted)
Buildings: 2 (monument)
Multipliers: 20% (Sistine) - 25% (Puppet)
Total: 1.9 (= 1)

CS Allies: (assuming 3 allies @ 26 cpt/ally in info era)
CS Total: 78

Grand Total = 174 cpt/turn (Note that half the culture comes from the CS Allies!)

Of course, you don't start from scratch with 0 culture, Cristo, and all that cpt & multipliers, but if you did, it would take 152 turns to get 21 policies.

Now the case of annexed and self-built: (10 cities total, assuming you have time to build at least 1 wonder/city, and adding in a few more wonders)

Capital:
Buildings: 2 (monument) + 1 (amphitheater) + 1 (opera house) + 1 (museum) + 1 ( broadcast tower) + 2 (pagoda)
= 8
National Wonders: 18 (guilds) + 2 (Hermitage) + 1 (NC) + 1 (National Epic) + 1 (Oxford) + 1 (Palace)
= 24
World Wonders: 1 (Big Ben) + 1 (Colossus) + 1 (GL) + 1 (Pisa) + 3 (Oracle) + 1 (Petra) + 1 (Sistine) + 1 (SoL)
= 10
Multipliers: 33% (Broadcast Tower) + 50% (Hermitage) + 20% (Sistine)
= +103%
Total: 85.26

Other Cities:
Buildings: 2 (monument) + 1 (amphitheater) + 1 (opera house) + 1 (museum) + 1 ( broadcast tower) + 2 (pagoda)
= 8
National & World Wonders: 2 (assuming you distribute Circus Maximus, Heroic Epic, etc. etc.) evenly among your other cities)
= 5
Multipliers: 33% (Broadcast Tower) + 20% (Sistine) + (averaging out the value of Alhambra and Sydney (20% + 50%)/9 )
= +61%
Total: 20.93 * 9 = 188.37

CS Allies: (assuming 3 allies @ 26 cpt/ally in info era)
CS Total: 78

Grand Total = 351.63 cpt/turn (1/4 of culture comes from the CS Allies)

Ok, so it works out to almost exactly 2x the culture, at almost exactly 2x the culture costs. (Mostly because of the benefits of having all those culture buildings in each city)

However, you'd be way behind on science and other important things going OCC... for no real culture advantage... so never mind. :P

The ONLY advantage is that you get to delay taking the 6 liberty policies until later, which conceivably might relieve some pressure in the early game... but nah.
 
7 cities ups your tech costs too much I believe. 6 or even just 5 is enough. If you conquer too late you can never grow them enough to pull their science weight, and there are not enough caravans in a land bound map like this to make up for the laggard.

I was hoping to understand Bleidraner's statement...

Technology's price increases the more cities you have....?? Meaning your "Threshold" for Science TRULY increases - OR,...

Does he just mean "The price of upkeep" (Maintaining a thriving city) purchasing science building, limited caravans, etc.....??


++++ (Did some testing)

So, it "Truly" does increase.....How much?.....is it a %,....OR.....???

AND, what about gifting or losing cities,.....Does it go back down again if you decrease....???




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