G-Minor CLXXVI

[aafritz17]

While the general Hall of Fame is an ongoing competition, we like to run time-definite competitions between updates that we call Gauntlets. Standard Hall of Fame rules (*) still apply, but any games meeting the settings will be counted towards the Gauntlet.

(*) Please read the >> HOF rules << BEFORE playing!

Settings:

• Expansion: Brave New World
• Victory Condition: Time (though all victory conditions must be enabled)
• Difficulty: Warlord
• Map Size: Standard
• Map Type: Pangaea
• Speed: Standard
• Leader: Maya (Pacal)
• Opponents: Any
• Version: SV8
• Date: 1st to 30th April 2020

The highest score wins.

 

[zenmaster]

Hope all are well and keeping spirits up.

I am obsessed with strategizing these Time games - Played a few decent starts but could not get Theology before turn 62 (one of the early Mayan Long Count Dates) Finally got it on a good capital desert start after discovering the Calendar tech in a hut.

With the Maya Long Count dates being turns 62, 72, 86, 101, 117, 133, 152, 183, and 234 and then another one at least after that if you can get Theology before turn 62, you can definitely cycle through all 9 Great People and start over with a clean slate and repick any GP somewhere in the T300/400s!

After exploring the Pangaea and much of the seas with a Great Admiral, I find I should get a little over 100 cities on my map. Not sure if that is good or bad for a Pangaea standard map.

Built around 7 cities and am conquering all the capitals but 1 as soon as is practical.
Went straight Liberty complete and then straight Tradition complete.

Long Count GP order: GE for Pyramids, GS for academy, GP for enhancement, GM for cash/CS alliance, GA for exploring the seas, the rest so far taken afterwards not inportant.

Not at that point yet, but I am already strategizing my build/buy order for the Great Expansion after the World's Fair.

With a warlike approach for the whole early-mid game I avoided Swords into Plowshares and since previous Time games have shown that religious buildings like Pagodas are not really worth it, I balanced growth and happiness with my beliefs- Sun God pantheon, Tithe, Feed the World, Religious Centers (+2 happiness w/temple)

With these beliefs, I will probably rush Pyramids-Temples assuming happiness at that point will be strained then Granary-Aqueduct with most cities, with the scattered islands going lighthouse-harbor before that probably, and earlier lighthouses in production poor ports too. The Exploration policy giving happiness for lighthouses/harbors/seaports is a key. Debating whether to get monuments up in that early timeframe somewhere. I am actually a fan of buying early workshops, but will probably not have the gold to do so.

Hope people are enjoying this one!

 

[vadalaz]

I'm thinking Pagodas can be worthwhile if you keep a steady rate of expansion throughout the first ~250 turns, or however long it takes to fill up the map with cities. I tried the "stay tall, expand after WF" approach in my first partial playthrough, and I just couldn't force myself to keep playing it - the expansion phase is very tedious.

I'm trying something different now. My religion has Pagodas, I'm expanding non-stop and keeping my cities at 5 pop. You get +4 local happiness from colloseums and pagodas, and on Warlord 5 population generates 3.75 local unhappiness, so you're actually at +0.25 local happiness per city this way. Once I get Zoos, Aristocracy and the Honor happiness policy, I'll grow the cities to size 10.

This kills your science and culture though. I'm not sure investing policies into Piety was smart either, as I'm going to be generating more faith than I can spend very soon. I'm considering restarting and trying to get the necessary policies (Tradition 1, full Liberty, Honor 2) as quickly as possible, skipping the 5-pop phase.

 

[zenmaster]

I'm thinking Pagodas can be worthwhile if you keep a steady rate of expansion throughout the first ~250 turns, or however long it takes to fill up the map with cities. I tried the "stay tall, expand after WF" approach in my first partial playthrough, and I just couldn't force myself to keep playing it - the expansion phase is very tedious.

I'm trying something different now. My religion has Pagodas, I'm expanding non-stop and keeping my cities at 5 pop. You get +4 local happiness from colloseums and pagodas, and on Warlord 5 population generates 3.75 local unhappiness, so you're actually at +0.25 local happiness per city this way. Once I get Zoos, Aristocracy and the Honor happiness policy, I'll grow the cities to size 10.

This kills your science and culture though. I'm not sure investing policies into Piety was smart either, as I'm going to be generating more faith than I can spend very soon. I'm considering restarting and trying to get the necessary policies (Tradition 1, full Liberty, Honor 2) as quickly as possible, skipping the 5-pop phase.

A very interesting plan! The culture/science hurdles from the expansion penalties seem an uphill fight- let us know how it works out.

 

[vadalaz]

I've found that the slow science rate actually helps keep the price of pagodas low, and culture is decent with 7 cpt per city (1 Liberty, 2 Monument, 2 Pagoda, 2 Honor).

The main problem has been keeping up the expansion rate high enough for this approach to be worthwhile. There's very little production on a 5 billion/hot/low seas map, and I think those are the best settings for high scores. Gold is scarce as well. I don't have a mountain city (5 bil world age strikes again), so no Machu Picchu, and that really hurts. Going Tithe was a mistake as well, +2 gpt per city would've been better with so many low-pop cities. I'll try once more and really focus on fast expansion this time.

 

[aafritz17]

Yeah, ya have to rethink the whole strategy for this, don'tcha! I had one seemingly-good game going, and around T150 I decided to start adding cities by conquest. I was thinking "the sooner, the better", and by then my science was so advanced that the AIs weren't going to build any more wonders, so of what use were they?

But that ALSO captured a bunch of Works-of-Art. I knew I had to avoid a Culture Vic, but I didn't think about the AI slipping a Trojan Horse into my kingdom! Kept watching the tourism meter, and Pedro and (surprise!) Shaka seemed to be generating adequate culture. But I had both of their capitols, and it finally caught up with me. I bailed on that game at T370, when the meter said <50 turns for both of them. Ah, well, start another one.

 

[zenmaster]

Yeah, ya have to rethink the whole strategy for this, don'tcha! I had one seemingly-good game going, and around T150 I decided to start adding cities by conquest. I was thinking "the sooner, the better", and by then my science was so advanced that the AIs weren't going to build any more wonders, so of what use were they?

But that ALSO captured a bunch of Works-of-Art. I knew I had to avoid a Culture Vic, but I didn't think about the AI slipping a Trojan Horse into my kingdom! Kept watching the tourism meter, and Pedro and (surprise!) Shaka seemed to be generating adequate culture. But I had both of their capitols, and it finally caught up with me. I bailed on that game at T370, when the meter said <50 turns for both of them. Ah, well, start another one.

Ah yes, Culture victory is a big danger on lower level Time games!

Need to either conquer from the get-go (I have conquered all the civs but one by about T160) or get 0-few very early then wait for X-Com squads and Stealth Bombers.

Also, please remember that there is a bug (unfixed still, I think) that limits beakers from G Scientist bulbing to under 210,000. Anything over that and you will get negative beakers from a bulb!

 

[zenmaster]

Yeah, ya have to rethink the whole strategy for this, don'tcha! I had one seemingly-good game going, and around T150 I decided to start adding cities by conquest. I was thinking "the sooner, the better", and by then my science was so advanced that the AIs weren't going to build any more wonders, so of what use were they?

But that ALSO captured a bunch of Works-of-Art. I knew I had to avoid a Culture Vic, but I didn't think about the AI slipping a Trojan Horse into my kingdom! Kept watching the tourism meter, and Pedro and (surprise!) Shaka seemed to be generating adequate culture. But I had both of their capitols, and it finally caught up with me. I bailed on that game at T370, when the meter said <50 turns for both of them. Ah, well, start another one.

Also, the "fix" for capturing too many great works here, from the legend himself Cromagnus in the old Netherlands time victory thread:

Re: great works, the trick I think is to capture an AI's capital, but leave them one city. Give them back a crappy city, capture the other one and then gift them back their capital with all the great works in it and capture the crappy city. You might have to do this twice if the last AI you eliminate has great works. But the key is the crappy city, otherwise they might move great works into the other city before you capture it. (Example: Gandhi has Bombay. Gift them a crappy city with no GW slots, then capture Bombay, then gift them Delhi with a bunch of great work slots)

 

[zenmaster]

Finally finished.

125 cities total. Grew Palenque to size 60. Score 23702.

Had 5 Maritime City-States which I let stay allied most of the game. I was going to conquer them about turn 410 to let them grow to a good size before game end, but the more I thought, the more I couldn't give up 600+ food a turn (5 X 120 + a bit more in capital) so early. Conquered the 2 inland Maritime city-states about turn 450, and left the last three for right before the end.

Because I got my first Mayan Long Count on Turn 62, I re-cycled through the Mayan Great people and got a second Long Count Great Writer on Turn 433.

Good luck finishing to those playing this. May your circuit boards stay cool and your OS not freeze up!

 

[vadalaz]

Great job!

Had 5 Maritime City-States which I let stay allied most of the game. I was going to conquer them about turn 410 to let them grow to a good size before game end, but the more I thought, the more I couldn't give up 600+ food a turn (5 X 120 + a bit more in capital) so early.

Thanks for the insight. I suppose the perfect moment to capture maritimes is when doing that would just barely keep all other citizens alive by turn 500.

I'm on turn 206 of my game, 90-something cities so far, final count will probably be around 120-130 as well, so I should finish expanding soon enough. I can't wait for the game to go quicker after I'm done expanding, I've been playing 5 to 10 turn sessions mostly. And the game has failed to load a save once already.

William has been kind enough to construct one polder for me. I also picked Pachacuti and Ahmad in hopes of getting some Terrace farms or Kasbahs, but no such luck. Perhaps I should've postponed their annihilation.

 

[zenmaster]

I'm on turn 206 of my game, 90-something cities so far, final count will probably be around 120-130 as well, so I should finish expanding soon enough. I can't wait for the game to go quicker after I'm done expanding, I've been playing 5 to 10 turn sessions mostly. And the game has failed to load a save once already.

William has been kind enough to construct one polder for me. I also picked Pachacuti and Ahmad in hopes of getting some Terrace farms or Kasbahs, but no such luck. Perhaps I should've postponed their annihilation.

Turn 206-- Long way to go! But yes, turns become much faster after all cities are set to wealth or research and no units are moving around.

Putting in William and Pacachuti was genius; too bad on Warlord they are not too up on working their kingdoms effectively. I am curious on the status of your National Wonders; did you stall expansion at some point to fit some/all of them in, use up Great Engineers on them, or are some still unbuilt? I have considered some version of the strategy you are using but even growth "waves" can make the key national wonders tough and hamper culture in particular. Granted, only the Hermitage is really vital in this one, but Circus Maximus, Grand Temple, and National College are pretty helpful for getting ahead of the curve too.

Another quick note on my game-- At times I was regretting choosing Religious Centers for the +2 happiness per city over Swords into Plowshares, when my happiness surged to 400+ at some points late game, but I finished with a happiness of 211 - At 125 cities, Religious Centers gave me 250 happiness, so they were ultimately justified. Happiness oscillated wildly from dipping below zero to surging high at various points. The Religious Centers really did let me put the pedal down to accelerate growth on my core cities and let me do the huge expansion relatively quickly and smoothly, so I think I would choose Feed the World and Religious Centers again if I were to do it over.

 

[vadalaz]

I suppose you could gift some hill/mountain cities to Pachacuti, get open borders and gift him a bunch of workers as well. You'd probably need to provide him with as many luxuries as you can afford though, so that he doesn't go unhappy and raze your cities. Even then, it might take ages for the AI to improve all the tiles. It might be interesting to try this in a Duel game.

I haven't built any National Wonders yet. I took a Great Prophet on T72 to enhance religion, as 6 AIs went Piety and I wanted to secure my religious beliefs quickly. I used my early GEs from UA and Liberty on Machu Picchu and Petra - my capital has a great number of desert hills and MP is a life-saver for an empire with high maintenance costs.

I think taking a happiness belief is the right play, SiP only affects surplus food which you eventually run out of anyway. Pagodas are working well for me, but if your final happiness was that high, I believe I should've taken Mosques instead. Would've been at least an extra 120 fpt from turn 250, or 30000 faith by turn 500.

 

[vadalaz]

Finished with 25412 points, 134 cities. The last 150 turns were a pain - not much to do except waiting out the turn rollover times which must've been over a minute each.

I chose T480 as the turn to capture the 5 maritime CSs, as I figured that all other cities should easily be able to take a -100 food hit. I switched some tiles around to grow as many cities by turn 479 as I could, then DoWed and took all the CSs on turn 480. Turns out a ~150 def city goes down in about 9 Rocket Artillery shots. Managed to grow all the captured CSs to size 17 or above.

19364 points from pop means I had 4841 citizens, averaging just a bit over 36 per city. I couldn't have gotten this much population with Mosques instead of Pagodas, my endgame happiness had dipped down to just 50 before I built CN Tower.

I didn't have any Rationalism policies except +25% to GS generation for a very long time, and after I'd finished the tech tree I kept my science around 21000 bpt to keep bulb value at ~207000 beakers. I actually had to sell 78 libraries to keep it that low. Eventually I ran out of faith to buy scientists and took the beaker-boosting policies afterwards. On turn 499 I bulbed all the naturally spawned GSs and had an overflow of over 1.5 million go to waste.

I had an annoying technical issue where the game would crash while loading a save, and then load it just fine if I tried again immediately. It first happened with a turn 200 save and then became a frequent problem after turn 300. Not sure if those are gonna show up as 0-turn sessions in the game log.

 

[zenmaster]

Finished with 25412 points, 134 cities. The last 150 turns were a pain - not much to do except waiting out the turn rollover times which must've been over a minute each.

I chose T480 as the turn to capture the 5 maritime CSs, as I figured that all other cities should easily be able to take a -100 food hit. I switched some tiles around to grow as many cities by turn 479 as I could, then DoWed and took all the CSs on turn 480. Turns out a ~150 def city goes down in about 9 Rocket Artillery shots. Managed to grow all the captured CSs to size 17 or above.

19364 points from pop means I had 4841 citizens, averaging just a bit over 36 per city. I couldn't have gotten this much population with Mosques instead of Pagodas, my endgame happiness had dipped down to just 50 before I built CN Tower.

I didn't have any Rationalism policies except +25% to GS generation for a very long time, and after I'd finished the tech tree I kept my science around 21000 bpt to keep bulb value at ~207000 beakers. I actually had to sell 78 libraries to keep it that low. Eventually I ran out of faith to buy scientists and took the beaker-boosting policies afterwards. On turn 499 I bulbed all the naturally spawned GSs and had an overflow of over 1.5 million go to waste.

I had an annoying technical issue where the game would crash while loading a save, and then load it just fine if I tried again immediately. It first happened with a turn 200 save and then became a frequent problem after turn 300. Not sure if those are gonna show up as 0-turn sessions in the game log.

Very nice! Way to follow through with an epic game! Glad your system survived it.

I think you have shown that in Time games, the journey to endgame may not be all that crucial, when all is said and done, provided you go about it reasonably well. Your strategy, or more likely execution, got you about 0.333 more citizens per city more than I did on average as you finished with about 50 population more than I would have with 134 cities. I certainly could have done many things better, but If you think you could have refined your game better, than maybe continuous is the way to go. Did you follow through on your plan to get cities to 10 as soon as possible with the policies mentioned in a previous post, or did you modify that?

I noticed you actually had a bit less "land" than I did, but were able to fit in 9 more cities, which helps in this. Of course, there is no way of knowing what the final city count will be in this until well into the effort, which is a road that can't be repaved . You definitely did better with the Great Scientists with 200 more points.. I burned many early just to get through the tech tree. I was able to sell off research labs only and keep no research labs for awhile when I was near the 210000 beaker limit. Saving them until as late as feasibly possible seems like it might be the better way to go even if there is a lot of waste at the end.

Great game!

 

[vadalaz]

There were some things I could've done better, but they have little to do with the expansion strategy. The two big things that come to mind are:

- I didn't manage to grow all of my cities to their limit, which I think is a tile management issue. From the scoring perspective, it doesn't matter whether you grow city A from 40 to 41 pop or city B adjacent to it from 30 to 31. But as the latter requires less food, you can get this extra citizen faster, so I believe the overlapping food tiles have more value in city B. I didn't switch tiles around too much, as it's not particularly fun when every click has a 1-2 second delay. I was hoping that I'd actually be able to grow all my cities to their limit regardless, because I was done planting settlers by turn 235ish. I suppose the benchmark that matters more is the turn when you have Medical Labs everywhere

- I think I could've had many more Great Scientists. I should've been focusing on science buildings as soon as they became available, and I should've taken Humanism much, much earlier. I had a very late National Epic and very late gardens in most of my cities as well. I actually took Arts Funding as well, the logic being that it contributes to three GPs that bring points, while Sci Funding would've sped up all those useless GMs and GEs as well. But now I'm thinking that the correct play was Sci Funding and focusing on GS generation. You know how in a wide science game in the end you get a GS out of each city every 5-6 turns? Having that sort of thing with 100 cities would be nuts

I don't remember the early game that well anymore, but I think I had a 5 to 8 pop (depending on availability of Circus and Stoneworks) phase first and only started growing cities to size 10 when I was getting close to Printing Press. Banking was a big tech too, Forbidden Palace helped a lot and so did all the prebuilt Banks when I adopted Freedom.

 

[Nizef]

On turn 499 I bulbed all the naturally spawned GSs and had an overflow of over 1.5 million go to waste.

I could not help myself, but at this point I had to laugh out loud. You and zenmaster are so insanely good at this game!

 

[aafritz17]

I could not help myself, but at this point I had to laugh out loud. You and zenmaster are so insanely good at this game!

Yeah, boggles my mind.

 

[billybgame]

I gave this an effort and failed in turn 478 Culture victory. I see the two winners and their in depth strategies.....guess I have some learning to do. Didn't have a Time victory yet, so tried. Frustrating to get so close, though. I'm sure I made many major mistakes....a few less and maybe I could've gotten it done.

 

[aafritz17]

I gave this an effort and failed in turn 478 Culture victory. I see the two winners and their in depth strategies.....guess I have some learning to do. Didn't have a Time victory yet, so tried. Frustrating to get so close, though. I'm sure I made many major mistakes....a few less and maybe I could've gotten it done.

Aw, that's a bummer. I think I did something like that the first time a tried a Time Vic, and I know I had to quit the one game at T370 because of my tourism.

We're leaving the two current gauntlets open until 5/15, if you want to take another swing at it. (But, I know, it is a looooooong trip...)

 

[billybgame]

Oh...ok...didn't see that posted in either one. 5/15.....hmm....ok....we shall see.

Thanks.