G-Minor XCII

[chuckh89]

Truly insane! Don't care whatever help you had, getting both GL and Stonehenge at immortal is AMAZING! If I could have a guaranteed SH, just that, I would be over the moon!


Why did you go for Parthenon? How does that help?

More than one reason actually,....

Once my capital was rolling, I understood I was in a incredible position except for 2 things. Gold, and Happiness. Kinda important,..Right? (I needed Monarchy, so I kept going)
Also, It would have been stupid not to continue down Tradition after grabbing Drama and Poetry (Free), once I had (Free) amphitheaters, Parthenon, and Poland's free Social Policy closing Tradition early was a snap!

Since Raging Barbarians was (ON), and you can't take it away once you start...I was still committed to getting to Reformation in Piety, and stick with the game plan. Obviously my capital had a good wonder setup...And to be honest with you my end goal was to get Hagia Sophia, and use the faith currently working toward my 2nd Prophet to buy more advanced units with Holy Warriors.

How was I going to get to Reformation in Piety...More Culture! (Parthenon +6). I rolled through Tradition extremely fast, so it definitely helped.

Since I had Stonehedge, and the GL with plans to go for Oracle (Which I eventually got also)...I selected Divine Inspiration (+2 Faith for each World Wonder), as my first Belief. The wonders were coming easy, so I committed my second city to nonstop units, and then had my Capital grab wonders to speed up religion, and for missionaries-since I really didn't have Faith output from tiles. (Remember, Pantheon was Monument of the Gods)

I started some games today..,

I have gotten the GL once, and Stonehedge twice(without Monument of the Gods, or Aristocrasy)...But, not both in the same games.

I have a little trick I use (depending on the city layout) to make sure I get Wonders when it comes down the home stretch...It works,...cause when I do it, I never get beat the turn right before completion which happens so often at the higher levels.

 

[Bleidraner]

Ah I get it, culture fast to finish tradition and then get on to piety.

Well cannot compare notes on the wonder building as I have not tried to get wonders in this gauntlet because I am still trying to medal, I still don't have a game in the 130 range and I am guessing that's where I need to be. Generally for quick domination on higher levels, there is no space in the build queue for a wonder as they take turns that should be used for building units. But for pretty much any other victory condition, it would be spectacular to get the GL most of the time. This whole stoneworks strategy is new to me and sounds great. Thank you very much Chuck!

 

[chuckh89]

I am getting better at this, and have done it twice today (without Stoneworks, and Monument of the Gods)- No numbers though, cause the religions went of the board early.

Generally for quick domination on higher levels, there is no space in the build queue for a wonder as they take turns that should be used for building units.

Normally, yes!! Why?, because you need to start moving your army early, so that you can get it to the other side of the map in a low number of turns.

If your playing Heathen Conversion!,...Your army is already there,..waiting to be converted! Also remember,...It doesn't have to be your religions missionary, so you don't need to wait for Religion, and now generate more faith so you can get a missionary! Steal AI missionaries, and have them waiting on the far side of the map...Ready to GO!

In some ways it is better than a city produced army
Your not paying Maintenance while your army marches to the other side of the map.
You can suicide units, delete injured, and replace them easily

In other ways it is not,
(Which is why I am using Wonders to get Maximum Technology)

There isn't a Barracks inside that wooden shack of a camp, and all units are baseline.

Which means your going to need more than your normal army, at least initially.
Baiting with a worker should gain you some experience. BUT, If the AI is one of the more advanced (with walls) your going to take a beating, your going to pay high maintenance, your going to waste time, and the AI's advanced units will slowly catch up to your more numerous units because a huge army like that saps Gold, and eventually threatens Technology advancement.

Barbarians are much like CS units, and will only advance as the Civs in the game advance.

This was my biggest problem with my early runs is that I concentrated too much on getting Religion and missionaries, and not enough on Technology.

Which is a better army...Quality over Quantity? Or High numbers, but weaker?

By using Wonders to Tech. (initially) I am hoping to get a army that has both,
And,
-Hopefully I can save Gold while the wonder process is in effect.
And
-Hopefully I will continue to be the Tech. leader, and upgrades are in the near future.

The other advantage,
When your building unit, after unit,....The AI is not stupid on Immortal, he knows how strong your army is, And he is going to counter with his own units to defend.
BUT,
If your killing him with Wonders, Culture, and Technology. He is going to try to keep up with you (And your first cities conquered are also more likely to have Quality Buildings, and Bottom of the Tech. Board Wonders)...Then Surprise, Surprise! A advanced army....And yes, I do mean surprise. Why?

When I initiate a early Wonder Tech. setup with Heathen Conversion early, baseline usually consists of:
Wonders
GL, Oracle

Technology
Mining, Pottery, Writing, Calendar, Philosophy(Free), Drama and Poetry, Theology

If I do it right w/o a Wonder assisting Pantheon, and w/o purchasing StoneWorks... I can usually get the Tradition opener, the Honor opener, and all the way through Piety before Turn 70.(Hopefully lower with a SW setup, and early Pantheon)

The Kicker for the AI is that the last 3 Policies come one right after the other
Normal Culture bulidup
Oracle
Advancing to Medieval (Theology)

So, its not like he knows I have Heathen Conversion...I just spring it on him all at one time!

The biggest obstacles are usually,
Stealing AI missionaries
All Religions consumed
Reformation-Heathen Conversion taken

Oh Yeah, and getting the Great Library

Is the the best setup for a Domination win...Probably not, But it is a unique approach that is worth exploring, and plays to the strengths of this Gauntlets leader.

 

[Bleidraner]

Is the the best setup for a Domination win...Probably not, But it is a unique approach that is worth exploring, and plays to the strengths of this Gauntlets leader.

It is indeed unique and it does play to the strengths of Caz. Thank you Chuck! If I have time, I will try it.

 

[RaidandTrade]

Sounds like I've got one more roll of the dice on this one unless I miss the cut-off. The next time I see this map type will be too soon!

How do you guys deal with the lack of missile units? I've been marching CBs over while I'm toasting enemy units with melee but it all feels slow.


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[zenmaster]

Sounds like I've got one more roll of the dice on this one unless I miss the cut-off. The next time I see this map type will be too soon!

How do you guys deal with the lack of missile units? I've been marching CBs over while I'm toasting enemy units with melee but it all feels slow.


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Yes, that is the issue I would have with trying Chuck's strategy above. My army waiting for me on the other side of the map would unfortunately be mostly spearmen or horsemen, which doesn't get the job done. If the wonder teching would get barb camps to spit out lots of crossbowmen or knights when I needed them, that might work, but not sure that that can happen in a timely manner. Definitely sounds like a fun strategy, but a tough one to make work (need an Immortal GL as well as other religion-based things to go right) Hope Chuck had some good luck with it this gauntlet; I'd love to see the result of it working out well!

I had to slog my composite bowmen across the map pretty much. Note to those trying this-- Attila is not a great option if you are going Piety. Pick civs who play nice; my last try saw the Huns next to me, and I had to wade through a ton of units early on to take him out. It was an interesting game-- had 2 other civs spawn close to me too so I had good tech/cash early from trade routes. Faith pantheon was Gold/Silver pantheon, so my religion and missionaries were slow in coming and I didn't find any other missionaries until the latter part of the game. (Borobrodur being built is a pretty big sign saying "Head to that civ to capture missionaries NOW")

My current and final try is the exact opposite start-- No one near me but I've got Tears of God running in a gem-rich area so I'm going to have early religion and missionary but tech is lagging and culture is slower. We'll see if early faith ends up being better than early science.

 

[Bleidraner]

Sounds like I've got one more roll of the dice on this one unless I miss the cut-off. The next time I see this map type will be too soon!

How do you guys deal with the lack of missile units? I've been marching CBs over while I'm toasting enemy units with melee but it all feels slow.


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Oh just realized that the cutoff is today! I think I not gonna make it I am still in the experimentation stage with Heathen Conversion. Well time to try for real, let's see if I can get a HC game in.

@R&T: What is clear is that you have to build the core ranged army yourself. So I am not even building a library, just shrine and monument in first city and shrine in expo and after that is archers/CBs. But that's because I want to be in the 130 range, and for that you have to take the whole map with CBs, maaaaybe the last cap will fall with Xbows if it is 136, Vadalaz's 120 is definitely with CBs.

In your case, I am not sure what is your strategy (Liberty with Pyramids for worker pillage repair or Piety for Heathen conversion? Very different answers to your question depending on what you are using. If Liberty I can give you useful advice, if Piety HC just some tips.

EDIT: Chuck's strategy is fun but not incredibly well suited for domination, as he himself says. And also, if you only have one last try, then I would not try to use it, as it really demands stuff happening that is not guaranteed. Safest is Liberty pillage repair, but that will not get you to record times, but you will be close. Heathen conversion is the winning strategy as Vadalaz demonstrated, but you have yo learn how to play it well, as I am finding out, and there is just not enough time. It still depend son you building your ranged army and using the converted barbarians as meatshileds, conquering melee units and generally support for core army.

 

[chuckh89]

Faith pantheon was Gold/Silver pantheon, so my religion and missionaries were slow in coming and I didn't find any other missionaries until the latter part of the game.

If you are going for "Heathen Conversion", always use Haille. I have at least 20 starts under my belt, and he always has religion (Eastern Orthodoxy) by turn 35. Which is a good thing, and bad thing...I guess. But he is kinda stupid IMHO, and likes to put his second city far from his capital,...Harrar is normally extremely easy to pick off and distance between the cities allows you to grab the missionaries without casualties. Happy hunting!

 

[Peets]

Oh just realized that the cutoff is today!

Tomorrow

 

[Cromagnus]

If you are going for "Heathen Conversion", always use Haille. I have at least 20 starts under my belt, and he always has religion by turn 35. Which is a good thing, and bad thing...I guess. But he is kinda stupid IMHO, and likes to put his second city far from his capital,...Harrar is normally extremely easy to pick off and distance between the cities allows you to grab the missionaries without casualties. Happy hunting!

I'm not going to have time to attempt this Gauntlet, but here are some more tips and some of the ideas I was toying with:

1) OCC: Insta-raze. This prevents recapture, eliminates negative unhappiness, and allows you to pillage at the city site. You're guaranteed to be over the unit cap, but with heathen missionaries, it doesn't matter. As an aside, speaking of Ethiopia, this works *really* well with him if you capture the capital first. (Better than Statue of Zeus!)

For those who question this, I *guarantee* you can spawn enough units in the capital to field two armies. You only need two armies. You don't need 2 cities!! You don't need *any* social policies for that matter... but they help.

2) Or, instead of OCC, intentionally go to -10 happiness to trigger rebel spawn and convert them. Probably better if your capital is centrally located, otherwise they may be too far from the action. (I haven't confirmed that rebels are affected by heathen missionaries so don't quote me on this)

3) Just do it the normal way. I see a lot of discussion of this map type, but, maybe you're just getting unlucky... horses do spawn, all over the map. Immortal is cake compared to Deity if you get a fast start. So, Liberty->Honor hybrid. (For the free settler) Settle your expo on horses if you don't want to re-roll until your capital gets them. Usually this is better anyway because that tile can't be pillaged. Save all your money for chariot archers, and build nothing but units until you cap, then maybe circus, coliseums, statue of zeus. The only tech you need is the wheel->construction. (arguably writing for embassies, but only if you're not scouting well) You need 2-3 scouts to *aggressively* scout the map. Be focused in your scouting. You don't need to uncover every hex. You need to find every opponent ASAP, so that you *know your conquest route early*. Do you need to go the long way around a mountain range through forest in order to attack a capital effectively? Do you need to kill off one opponent first because it creates the best point to split your armies off from? Do you need Optics? You need to figure these things out fast.

This map, despite the extra space, is doable by t100-t110 with traditional chariot archer rush. Yes, you *might* have to re-roll a few times, but even if you have to settle your expo 20 tiles away to start with 4 horses, it's *worth it*, and it's very unlikely you can't find that, so re-rolling may not be necessary. If anything, re-roll for a high-production/gold capital. (forest deer, gems, salt)

One more point about horses. If you can't find an expo with them, trade the mining lux you founded your city on for 4 horses, and then preferably attack someone *else* who has horses in their capital *first*, so that you don't run around with a resource penalty the whole game after that guy stops trading with you.

Honor is key for the barbs. You need to kill them early for promos, captured workers, and heck, CS quests don't hurt.

When I recommended Piety, my thought was always: "Build a ranged army, preferably chariot archers, and use conversion to replace melee units, allowing me to suicide them". You just need 200 faith and a missionary. (As pointed out, doesn't have to be your own) You don't need wonders, you don't need granaries, you just need production and to a lesser extent, gold.

Save your promotions for *well-timed* insta-heals, and if you get a few units to 100 XP (fast on this map) then fine, go for double-tap. Chariot archers that can attack and move out of range in the same turn are *the bomb*.

First army: 4 chariot archers + 1 tank.
Second army: 4 archers (upgraded to CB before they march off to war) + 1 tank.

Keys to success:
1) Worker baiting - you can empty a capital of defenders without taking a single point of damage by worker baiting, which makes the capital MUCH easier to take.
2) Tank at 90-99 health: Very important but *don't let this slow you down*. Know when you use your chariot archer insta-heals and *never let your last tank die*.
3) Insta-heal. Pillage. Have people DoW each other.

All pretty much standard stuff, but the key is speed, speed, speed. sub-t100 Pangaea on Deity = sub-t100 Boreal on Immortal. You can do it if you're efficient. Have fun.

 

[vadalaz]

Keys to success:
1) Worker baiting - you can empty a capital of defenders without taking a single point of damage by worker baiting, which makes the capital MUCH easier to take.

Do you know what makes the AIs not go for the workers sometimes? I've had it happen twice in this gauntlet, one time vs Theo where her garrison archer wouldn't move and I'm 100% certain there weren't any barbs or anything else for it to shoot, and the other vs Ahmad when he had a bunch of melee units near his city. I tried stealing his own workers and pillaging his stuff as well but he just didn't care and never moved his units.

 

[Cromagnus]

Do you know what makes the AIs not go for the workers sometimes? I've had it happen twice in this gauntlet, one time vs Theo where her garrison archer wouldn't move and I'm 100% certain there weren't any barbs or anything else for it to shoot, and the other vs Ahmad when he had a bunch of melee units near his city. I tried stealing his own workers and pillaging his stuff as well but he just didn't care and never moved his units.

Pretend you're the AI. If you saw a unit standing there *undefended*, wouldn't you steal it? Look at one of your own cities and see which tiles aren't in fog of war. If none (or very few) of your units are visible to the AI, they will usually steal.

I collect all of my ranged units outside of sight range, and put a warrior next to the worker. AI recaptures, ranged units fire, warrior moves in to recapture then moves out of range. You can reliably kill one AI unit per turn this way without taking damage. This will shave turns off of conquest *in most situations*. If the capital looks easy to take, either because you have overwhelming force, or because you believe you can handle the bombardment/counterattack without heavy losses, don't bother, just nuke the city down ASAP. This is why the approach is so key. If 4 ranged units can damage the city on the first turn of combat, vs all 4 moving into range on the first turn and not having enough movement points to fire, you can usually nuke down even a defended city quickly.

Also, beware counterattack from Assyria. Kill off or block his siege towers from approaching the city or he'll recapture and destroy your only melee unit. But, he's good to have in the game because he can't defend his cities.

 

[vadalaz]

Ah, I suppose that's it. In both cases those AIs went tradition and had heavily expanded borders (4 rings), so they definitely saw the archers standing close by and realized going for the worker would be suicide.

 

[chuckh89]

1) OCC: Insta-raze. This prevents recapture, eliminates negative unhappiness, and allows you to pillage at the city site. You're guaranteed to be over the unit cap, but with heathen missionaries, it doesn't matter. As an aside, speaking of Ethiopia, this works *really* well with him if you capture the capital first. (Better than Statue of Zeus)

Yes, I never played OCC until the Gauntlet a few month back, and right away noticed this was a good domination strategy. I have had some really good runs, but I find that my end game struggles because I am unable to upgrade my units (Since the city Razes immediately, and the only "Home" territory is your capital)

I know...Don't worry about upgrades,...nothing but Chariot Archers! Getting better at using them, but they are very vulnerable to Horseman (Especially in the early game with Raging Barbarians -ON) and they always seem to get taken out unless I have a layer of melee units protecting them (Not a quick, efficient army). I recently have been accompanying my army with a double (Sight) Scout. That seems to help!

What was the advantage with OCC, and Ethiopia...I didn't quite understand, more details...Please! Thank You!

Great insight as always, Cro...Thanks again!

 

[zenmaster]

3)
This map, despite the extra space, is doable by t100-t110 with traditional chariot archer rush. Yes, you *might* have to re-roll a few times, but even if you have to settle your expo 20 tiles away to start with 4 horses, it's *worth it*, and it's very unlikely you can't find that, so re-rolling may not be necessary. If anything, re-roll for a high-production/gold capital. (forest deer, gems, salt)

Chariot archers seem somewhat neutered on this Boreal map. Even at 5 Billion Arid settings, there are way more mountains, hills, and forests than are good for ye olde chariots. The majority of maps I've seen have been seriously unfit for fast travel in key parts. I think a T100 win that route would be an outlier to a decent degree on Immortal here even with somewhat optimal play. Rerolling for nearby horses is annoying but relatively easy compared to rerolling for path-friendly map as this map takes an annoyingly long time to scout decently

 

[Bleidraner]

Well in the hall of fame, in BNW the best turn times on Pangea standard standard I can find in Deity are Cromagnus', and there is only 1 entry t111 that even approaches that range. The rest are 145+. In immortal, very few entries and the best is Cro's with 182 (well now Vadalaz's 120). Boreal pretty much doubles the size of Pangea and it is a lot less movement friendly. Not enough data of course, but the conclusions I draw are the huge respect we all should award Cromanus advice and opinions, how good Vadalaz's entry is, and how extremely difficult it will be to beat it. I won't be able to, and probably not even medal, as I cannot manage an efficient Heathen Conversion game.

EDIT: if I include ANY type of map, there are a couple of entries on large islands that are in the 140 range (great job Zenmaster, Klaskeren), but nothing better.

 

[zenmaster]

Well in the hall of fame, in BNW the best turn times on Pangea standard standard I can find in Deity are Cromagnus', and there is only 1 entry t111 that even approaches that range. The rest are 145+. In immortal, very few entries and the best is Cro's with 182 (well now Vadalaz's 120). Boreal pretty much doubles the size of Pangea and it is a lot less movement friendly. Not enough data of course, but the conclusions I draw are the huge respect we all should award Cromanus advice and opinions, how good Vadalaz's entry is, and how extremely difficult it will be to beat it. I won't be able to, and probably not even medal, as I cannot manage an efficient Heathen Conversion game.

EDIT: if I include ANY type of map, there are a couple of entries on large islands that are in the 140 range (great job Zenmaster, Klaskeren), but nothing better.

Thanks for the research to back up my feeling [emoji6] I had looked at the Boreal BNW page but there was nothing applicable; Didn't think to check Pangaea!

Cromagnus has a ton of experience though, and sometimes his gut feelings are right even without experience on a certain setting. I think in this one he may be a tad optimistic though.

We should be used to it by now-- in every other gauntlet someone comes in and says, "Oh, this winning time should be..." something seeming ridiculously low. Sometimes they are right, and sometimes not. Given skill levels, map rerolls, and outlier games with El Dorado etc. I never say anything is impossible, just improbable sometimes!

PS. That Large Islands game was a a Galleas "rush". Talk about a slog! Galleas move at 3 with no modifiers and have to follow coastlines! At Immortal it was tough to build G Lighthouse on that map so you had to capture it, hopefully early. Complaining about a few hills seems lame when stacked against having to "rush" with galleas's.

 

[zenmaster]

On a side note to Chuck, if you get a wonder filled game in, I would definitely submit it. Hall of Fame awards medals for score (sort by score to see) as well as time and a game with a bunch of wonders may score well even if it is not the fastest time. Also, let us know how it played out if it happens, as I am curious to see!

 

[zenmaster]

This post is very slightly on-topic as it is about a former Boreal gauntlet I mentioned in a previous post(Persia Marathon Small Diplomacy) A milestone game as it featured Bleidraner's first forum posts (and 1st gauntlet submission?) Congrats on his hard earned silver medal! I would necro that thread and ask there but my Tapatalk cannot get to that thread somehow and I won't be home for a long time.

To Bleidraner (or anyone else versed in small map Diplomacy games) I followed that thread and saw how the World Congress vote on small and tiny maps is screwed up a bit, requiring Forbodden Palace, World Religion AND World Ideology to get the needed votes to become World Leader after 2 sessions. Bleidraner claimed that Venice annexing City-States actually helps get the needed vote total without World Ideology -- In standard games Venice annexing CSes hurts your ability to get needed votes; does it really help you in Small maps? I can't even start my game without knowing whether or not I need Venice in it...

When I get home late tonight or tomorrow I'll edit this post and place it in the old thread. After playing this Boreal Map 4 times through on this gauntlet, I feel I know the map, and want to try the old Diplomacy gauntlet while Boreal is still fresh in my mind. With luck, I won't have to play another game on Boreal for a long time [emoji6]

 

[Bleidraner]

This post is very slightly on-topic as it is about a former Boreal gauntlet I mentioned in a previous post(Persia Marathon Small Diplomacy) A milestone game as it featured Bleidraner's first forum posts (and 1st gauntlet submission?) Congrats on his hard earned silver medal! I would necro that thread and ask there but my Tapatalk cannot get to that thread somehow and I won't be home for a long time.

To Bleidraner (or anyone else versed in small map Diplomacy games) I followed that thread and saw how the World Congress vote on small and tiny maps is screwed up a bit, requiring Forbodden Palace, World Religion AND World Ideology to get the needed votes to become World Leader after 2 sessions. Bleidraner claimed that Venice annexing City-States actually helps get the needed vote total without World Ideology -- In standard games Venice annexing CSes hurts your ability to get needed votes; does it really help you in Small maps? I can't even start my game without knowing whether or not I need Venice in it...

When I get home late tonight or tomorrow I'll edit this post and place it in the old thread. After playing this Boreal Map 4 times through on this gauntlet, I feel I know the map, and want to try the old Diplomacy gauntlet while Boreal is still fresh in my mind. With luck, I won't have to play another game on Boreal for a long time [emoji6]

Let me review the thread and get my save games from that gauntlet. I knew nothing back then so I may have been wrong. What is true is that in small the diplo calculation is slightly off so if you do nothing, you have to get all three. I will need 24 hours to check.