G-Minor XCVII

[Bleidraner]

3 cities Tradition, war on t90, war over by 170 or so. Miss the 196 win window by like 6-7 turns, I knew that was going to happen since t130 or so, but wanted to have a submission in, so played it through. Why don't I care? Well, because I am truly, utterly, thouroughly STUPID. My plan was to win in one vote and I put ENRICO in, of course he got 1 CS, so that forces me to have both world ideology and world religion on top of Forbidden Palace, ergo automatically 2 votes. Realized too late, otherwise I would have wished to PP, but no delayed it like 15 turns like the fool I am. Had like 4 GSs to spare.

Anyway. I don't think I have time for another game, so some thoughts. For sub 195, which will medal, you can hit Edu quite late, around 110 or even 115 is viable, Assyria will make up for it.

What is absolutely essential is to be able to rush buy at least 3 Unis, 4 is ideal, and have decent size cities on that turn, around 115. Unis up at 115, and secularism no later than 120-125, and PP around 145. If at that point you have researched Architecture and your tech rate allows you to tech PP in 4 turns, you have a chance at a t195 as long as you do not screw up the GS generation.

War is easy with Assyria, you can go to war even later than I did and be OK, but I think the first cap should fall earlier, if I had Babylon (fell at t96) before monuments as opposed to before aqueducts (I delayed culture as long as I could for this, should have started conquest earlier), things would have been easier.

BO fairly standard, scout scout granary settler library ToA (rush buy settler) HG (no river) with NC at around t75 I think. Or maybe HG after NC, not sure. Food is easy to get, hammers not so much. Could not rush buy my Unis as I had to spend money in happiness. Religion, Earth Mother, Tithe, Pagodas, Happiness from gardens, 25% faster religion spread. Edu t110ish, maybe 113. Secularism, and here is the killer, 140 or so.

Warry diplo takes a looong time to play.

Spoiler :

 

[Cromagnus]

Interesting approach Bleidraner. I must say, cash is at a premium in this gauntlet. So many things to buy. I'm hoping to finish my early war attempt tonight, but so far it's very tricky. The problem is (IMHO) you're much better off getting t115 Edu by research, rather than by free tech conquest. Because... well the free techs run out, and then boom you have crappy beakers. If you get there the hard way... they don't run out. It's kind of a key difference.

I think for an early war approach to compete with self-built cities, you have to hit Education about 10 turns earlier. However, that's assuming you *don't* keep cities that you conquer. In your game you did. I think if you start with self-built cities, you really can't afford to keep cities that you conquer... but I could be wrong about that.

 

[Manpanzee]

My thinking with the free techs is to place a high priority on growth early, but not science. Get your cities set up and growing, get Granaries up, but don't worry too much about Libraries. Suppose you have x population at Turn 100. Your beakers per turn at this point will be the same whether you built Libraries on Turn 50 or Turn 70. The difference will be that the Turn 70 Library build will have generated less science in the first 100 turns. This is where the free techs come in -- you use them to make up for the late Libraries, without sacrificing midgame science potential.

With regard to keeping/not keeping captured cities, I think it's totally map dependent. My first game had a wide distribution of luxury resources, and I was able to keep every single capital I took. And I think this was mostly correct for that map. My second game had poor resource distribution, where many capitals didn't bring new luxes, and all the city-states had only like 3 unique luxes among them -- in the second map, I gave away most of the cities I took, and I think that too was mostly correct for the map.

 

[Bleidraner]

Interesting approach Bleidraner. I must say, cash is at a premium in this gauntlet. So many things to buy. I'm hoping to finish my early war attempt tonight, but so far it's very tricky. The problem is (IMHO) you're much better off getting t115 Edu by research, rather than by free tech conquest. Because... well the free techs run out, and then boom you have crappy beakers. If you get there the hard way... they don't run out. It's kind of a key difference.

I think for an early war approach to compete with self-built cities, you have to hit Education about 10 turns earlier. However, that's assuming you *don't* keep cities that you conquer. In your game you did. I think if you start with self-built cities, you really can't afford to keep cities that you conquer... but I could be wrong about that.

Well I put Enrico by mistake instead of Attila, and I could not run the risk of an AI liberating a gifted cap, so had to keep the caps (puppeted though), I gave away the other cities either razed them if small or traded for 3-4gpt with the last 2 AIs standing. I only annexed Babylon, to make a nice 4 cities tradition. As I said before, I could never grow Babylon enough as I took it fairly late (96). If I had taken it at t60, things would have been easier.

I run into happiness problems until t120 or so, after that the CSs/pagodas and gardens allowed me to stay in the positive, hovering between +2 and +12. But those happiness problems in the first 120 turns made me spend a precious 1000 gold that I could have used to rush buy 3 Unis instead of the one. That delayed my renaissance just enough to miss a natural policy and Oracle policy (put both into Patronage), but the damage was done. It also did not help that I tried to avoid allying cultural CSs in the first 100 turns to be able to get the free aqueduct in Babylon. If I had Edu at 105 and money to rush buy Unis, I could have had Secularism at 120, and would have made it.

If I get time I may try again.

 

[Cromagnus]

Well I put Enrico by mistake instead of Attila, and I could not run the risk of an AI liberating a gifted cap, so had to keep the caps (puppeted though), I gave away the other cities either razed them if small or traded for 3-4gpt with the last 2 AIs standing. I only annexed Babylon, to make a nice 4 cities tradition. As I said before, I could never grow Babylon enough as I took it fairly late (96). If I had taken it at t60, things would have been easier.

I run into happiness problems until t120 or so, after that the CSs/pagodas and gardens allowed me to stay in the positive, hovering between +2 and +12. But those happiness problems in the first 120 turns made me spend a precious 1000 gold that I could have used to rush buy 3 Unis instead of the one. That delayed my renaissance just enough to miss a natural policy and Oracle policy (put both into Patronage), but the damage was done. It also did not help that I tried to avoid allying cultural CSs in the first 100 turns to be able to get the free aqueduct in Babylon. If I had Edu at 105 and money to rush buy Unis, I could have had Secularism at 120, and would have made it.

If I get time I may try again.

Ah right.. Venice instead of Attila pretty much ruins it. Forgot about that. Map luck plays a big role it seems. It's not just which techs you get from capture, it's what cities you get, what wonders you get. In my attempt so far I started with 4 cities, not perfect cities, but good enough... all within trade route range of each other. And then I captured a city with both Petra & Colossus that is half a map away.. The only desert tile is raw desert. (1food1hammer *with* Petra)

But, I need it for the extra 2 trade routes... or at least I've convinced myself that I do. So now I'm at 5 cities, one of which was captured late, is small, and doesn't even have a monument, let alone a courthouse, and it's killing my happiness... Blech. This is looking like a t200 finish, so I may bag it and try again. I should have remembered that I'm *happiness bound* and don't need extra trade routes!! I should have given up that city, just like I gave up the ones with Stonehenge, ToA, Mausoleum, GL, etc...I keep forgetting I don't need these things.

 

[Morcar_olmig]

Tried to find mechanics behind that WC vote time frames (although there is a lot of info in previous gauntlets), but haven't found any exact numbers. So will try to experiment myself to understand that fully

 

[Bleidraner]

Tired to find mechanics behind that WC vote time frames (although there is a lot of info in previous gauntlets), but haven't found any exact numbers. So will try to experiment myself to understand that fully

Executive summary: After PP, the first vote cycle is 30 turns, if you have reached the atomic era before, that will trigger a world leader vote, 10 turns and you have won. I will break it down as follows:

The cycle from PP discovered to the first WC vote (on world religion) vote is by my calculations 38 turns. The turn after you discover PP you will found WC (1 turn), each era will require a 2 turns host vote, 3 eras to atomic, 3 votes, 6 turns. Total 37. 38 actually as the vote comes the turn after the count goes to 1, then 10 more turns to Word Leader, actually 11 as you vote the turn after the counter goes to one, so 38+11 = 49 turns. Please anybody correct me, but I think this is right.

If you fail to reach atomic, but you have reached modern, then the second vote cycle will be 20 turns. I seem to remember that if you have not reached modern, then the second vote cycle is 25 turns.

Hope this helps. I am 99 percent certain this is correct but ah that 1% can screw up a game

 

[Morcar_olmig]

Executive summary: After PP, the first vote cycle is 30 turns, if you have reached the atomic era before, that will trigger a world leader vote, 10 turns and you have won. I will break it down as follows:

The cycle from PP discovered to the first WC vote (on world religion) vote is by my calculations 38 turns. The turn after you discover PP you will found WC (1 turn), each era will require a 2 turns host vote, 3 eras to atomic, 3 votes, 6 turns. Total 37. 38 actually as the vote comes the turn after the count goes to 1, then 10 more turns to Word Leader, actually 11 as you vote the turn after the counter goes to one, so 38+11 = 49 turns. Please anybody correct me, but I think this is right.

If you fail to reach atomic, but you have reached modern, then the second vote cycle will be 20 turns. I seem to remember that if you have not reached modern, then the second vote cycle is 25 turns.

Hope this helps. I am 99 percent certain this is correct but ah that 1% can screw up a game

Thanks a lot for that, Bleidraner! I was under impression that Resolution vote and World Leader vote could be carried out simultaneously, i mean that turns to vote timer is reduced simultaneously for both type of votes, or is it the case only for later Eras?

Sorry for stupid questions - didn't play much diplo games

 

[Bleidraner]

OK diplo basics:
- WC happens in every resolution vote (to vote on resolution) and every era change (to vote on host)
- The fist resolution vote runs for 30 turns, the second 25 (it is possible that if you have not hit industrial the second vote lasts still 30 turns, has never happened to me so I don't know). But please note, the second vote can last 20 instead of 25 if you have already reached Modern and killed everybody but 2. So if you go for a 2 votes strategy, you need to take this into account.
- The world leader vote gets triggered when the 1 civ reaches the Info era or when half of the civ have reached the Atomic era. The game calculates this last condition with some rounding process which means that in practical terms, if you kill everybody but 2 AIs, and you reach Atomic, the game thinks that half the civ have reached Atomic and triggers the vote.
- The world leader vote always lasts 10 turns, and happens on alternate turns (resolution - WL - resolution - WL - etc). So if you hit a=Atomic, and you have killed everybody but 2, you just have to wait for the current resolution vote to happen (so ideally you have timed this so there is only 1-2 turns left) and then the WL countdown (10 turns) starts.
- To win WL you need I don't remember how many votes, I think 40 votes I think, Vadalaz mentioned it in this same thread and anyway you will see it in the WC screen. You need all the CSs allied (32 votes) + Forbidden Palace (2) + World Religion (2) (or World Ideology) + being the host (4). So yes 40 votes.
- Calculating what you will be able to do in terms of tech is essential in this game, you can use my turn times calculations above. There are multiple possibilities, for t200 win for example, you can go for 2 votes, and that means rushing to PP and getting it on t130. Or you can go for one vote, and you can delay PP, hit it in t151. Or you can go peaceful and just tech like crazy to reach info (but that's not the optimum path with this civ and difficulty level).

Hope this helps. I would suggest you review the gauntlets for diplo, there is a lot of information there. Or just filter for Cromagnus posts, he is our resident expert.

 

[Cromagnus]

OK diplo basics:
- WC happens in every resolution vote (to vote on resolution) and every era change (to vote on host)
- The fist resolution vote runs for 30 turns, the second 25 (it is possible that if you have not hit industrial the second vote lasts still 30 turns, has never happened to me so I don't know). But please note, the second vote can last 20 instead of 25 if you have already reached Modern and killed everybody but 2. So if you go for a 2 votes strategy, you need to take this into account.
- The world leader vote gets triggered when the 1 civ reaches the Info era or when half of the civ have reached the Atomic era. The game calculates this last condition with some rounding process which means that in practical terms, if you kill everybody but 2 AIs, and you reach Atomic, the game thinks that half the civ have reached Atomic and triggers the vote.
- The world leader vote always lasts 10 turns, and happens on alternate turns (resolution - WL - resolution - WL - etc). So if you hit a=Atomic, and you have killed everybody but 2, you just have to wait for the current resolution vote to happen (so ideally you have timed this so there is only 1-2 turns left) and then the WL countdown (10 turns) starts.
- To win WL you need I don't remember how many votes, I think 40 votes I think, Vadalaz mentioned it in this same thread and anyway you will see it in the WC screen. You need all the CSs allied (32 votes) + Forbidden Palace (2) + World Religion (2) (or World Ideology) + being the host (4). So yes 40 votes.
- Calculating what you will be able to do in terms of tech is essential in this game, you can use my turn times calculations above. There are multiple possibilities, for t200 win for example, you can go for 2 votes, and that means rushing to PP and getting it on t130. Or you can go for one vote, and you can delay PP, hit it in t151. Or you can go peaceful and just tech like crazy to reach info (but that's not the optimum path with this civ and difficulty level).

Hope this helps. I would suggest you review the gauntlets for diplo, there is a lot of information there. Or just filter for Cromagnus posts, he is our resident expert.

Two things -

#1) Votes. You need 40. You get:

4 for membership
2 for being world leader
2 for forbidden palace
2 for world religion
30 for 15 CS
Total: 40 votes

You can survive having two CS removed from the game.

If one CS is removed, you need 39 votes. (So 15 is still enough)
If two CS are removed, you need 38 votes. (So 14 is enough)

You can also win without World Religion. (Or without Forbidden Palace) But, only if all CS are allied.

#2) Important turn counts: (assuming you don't skip an era*)

49 - turns until victory after researching printing press
48 - turns until victory after the world congress is founded
29 - turns to trigger the first era change in time (after founding WC)
31 - turns to trigger the second era change in time (after founding WC)
33 - turns to trigger the third era change in time (after founding WC)
2 - turns remaining before a vote such that you can still change eras**
1 - turns remaining before a vote such that you can still influence vote counts***

*You can skip an era one of two ways. The easy way is to eliminate your 5th opponent on the same turn that you enter a new era. The easiest way to time this is by bulbing Sci Theory or Radio. The hardest way to achieve this is to eliminate your 5th opponent on the same turn you tech Atomic Theory.

You can also skip 2 eras in one turn. The "easiest" way to achieve this is to wait until you naturally complete Sci Theory and then bulb 2 GS on Electricity, and Oxford Radio, all on the same turn that you eliminate the 5th civ. The hardest way to achieve this is to delay completing Radio until you've completed Steam Power (and preferably are close to completing Replaceable Parts and/or Flight), then bulb one GS to finish Radio, 1 to complete Steam Power, 1 to complete Flight, use the Rationalism Finisher to complete Plastic, bulb 2 GS to finish Electronics, and use Oxford to complete Atomic Theory, *all on the same turn you eliminate your 5th opponent*.

Of course, if you have the tech rate to pull off either of these last two approaches, you waited too long to tech Printing Press. It's that simple. Instead of teching Architecture first (5-8 turns) to save 2 extra turns, just finish Printing Press earlier. For that matter, skip Banking and Astronomy. It requires a higher tech rate to pull off the double era skip than it does to beeline Printing Press.

The single era skip is useful, but I wouldn't do it until the end unless you're feeling really confident about your game when you hit Sci Theory. Plus, it can be hard to eliminate all opposition by the time you tech Sci Theory. I usually do it when I hit Radio, if I'm feeling confident. If not I *sometimes* risk waiting until Atomic Theory, but you are absolutely taking a huge risk. If you don't have overwhelming force and the city already nuked down to 1 hp with 3 turns remaining, don't risk it. The first time this happened to me *it was not on purpose*... It was just that I was running behind on Domination. It was pure coincidence.

** YOU must enter a new era (or eliminate the 5th opponent) with 2 turns remaining in order to trigger an era change with one turn remaining. The World Congress era must change with 1 turn remaining in order to stop the clock.

***You can influence votes by allying CS 1 turn before the vote. On the turn of the vote itself it's too late.

 

[Cromagnus]

FYI: I mothballed 2nd attempt (to be continued) and started a third, shooting for even more aggressive war... and man, this is progressing too slowly. I haven't had much time to play, and I'm finding it very time-consuming to manage early warlike diplo on Emperor. I lucked out on tribute and got some key tech steals, so t107ish Education with 3 rush-bought Universities, but someone completed Oracle early *grrr* so it's looking like t125ish Secularism unless I burn a GW, which I'm tempted to do. I estimate a t195 victory at this pace, so I may or may not play this one out. What I *really* want is to capture 3 cities by t55. So far I've come close (t65) but have not pulled this off. I need a friendlier map but I can NEVER resist the urge to play out a bad start.... what's wrong with me??!

EDIT: Blech, definitely not going to be sub-t190... gonna mothball third attempt as well, and go for even MOAR warry start. I'm going to treat this like a Lakes Domination game. Like, I want all but *one AI city* destroyed by Education, or at worst before Printing Press. If this last early war attempt doesn't work I'm probably not going to submit a game... I've played warlike diplo too many times... the only thing that interests me about the gauntlet is the UA twist, which is wholly defeated by starting the warpath after you're already #1 in tech.

 

[Bleidraner]

FYI: I mothballed 2nd attempt (to be continued) and started a third, shooting for even more aggressive war... and man, this is progressing too slowly. I haven't had much time to play, and I'm finding it very time-consuming to manage early warlike diplo on Emperor. I lucked out on tribute and got some key tech steals, so t107ish Education with 3 rush-bought Universities, but someone completed Oracle early *grrr* so it's looking like t125ish Secularism unless I burn a GW, which I'm tempted to do. I estimate a t195 victory at this pace, so I may or may not play this one out. What I *really* want is to capture 3 cities by t55. So far I've come close (t65) but have not pulled this off. I need a friendlier map but I can NEVER resist the urge to play out a bad start.... what's wrong with me??!

EDIT: Blech, definitely not going to be sub-t190... gonna mothball third attempt as well, and go for even MOAR warry start. I'm going to treat this like a Lakes Domination game. Like, I want all but *one AI city* destroyed by Education, or at worst before Printing Press. If this last early war attempt doesn't work I'm probably not going to submit a game... I've played warlike diplo too many times... the only thing that interests me about the gauntlet is the UA twist, which is wholly defeated by starting the warpath after you're already #1 in tech.

I just had exactly the same game. T107 Edu, 120 secularism burning a GW. But tech rate is no good. Cap, 2 annexed cities, rest gifted. Rush bought 3 Unis, but the cities are just not big enough. I will miss the sub200 window. I think the problem is I delayed monuments policy by putting a couple of policies into Patro, and accelerated culture and managed happiness with CSs. All that worked beautifully, but the delayed aqueducts are a killer, so tech rate sucks.

It is an interesting experiment, but really I am denying the early growth advantages of tradition by delaying the growth policies. So not great.

May play it through.
EDIT: keep thinking about this game. Putting those policies in Patronage before the growth policies is the wrong strategy, but I think this same game, just altering policy order to the more classic order, is a potential winner. I just need to get more money somehow, tribute maybe, as I run out of money after rush buying the Unis, need more to buy the schools as they come very quickly after the Unis. 10 policies in 120 turns, a strong religion, great fpt, just need better bpt, more growth, and I have happiness to spare. Um. Also had to build the caravansary as my annexed cities were out of caravan range. Um. If I have time I will try again.
EDIT II: Made a mistake in my post, yes you need 40 votes, but I forgot the votes for membership so you can live without 1 CS.
EDIT III: ...aaaand Cromagnus had already corrected the problem in his post. Cromagnus, you not only are a generous expert in diplo, your posts are also beautiful and extremely well organized.

 

[Cromagnus]

I just had exactly the same game. T107 Edu, 120 secularism burning a GW. But tech rate is no good. Cap, 2 annexed cities, rest gifted. Rush bought 3 Unis, but the cities are just not big enough. I will miss the sub200 window. I think the problem is I delayed monuments policy by putting a couple of policies into Patro, and accelerated culture and managed happiness with CSs. All that worked beautifully, but the delayed aqueducts are a killer, so tech rate sucks.

Yeah, that's the general theme of my games as well... early Edu but cities are not big enough. Delaying the free monuments is no good, agreed. That's why I'm trying to capture 3 cities faster, so I don't have to delay the policy.

Ultimately, I think the whole problem is the captured cities. Unless you're lucky, if you capture early and don't annex you end up with puppeted cities with a water mill and no library, maybe not even a monument. If you *do* annex, now you've got ten extra unhappiness you have to compensate for in the very early game. Either that requires CS allies, or happiness buildings, or *amazing* luck with luxuries to compensate. If you go 2-city Tradition NC, and capture late, you've got lots of turns of anarchy, annexing hurts even more, and on Emperor you're now dealing with a LOT of cities to capture. If you just build the cities yourself, and raze/gift everything else, you don't have to deal with any of this.

I'm starting to go back on my original thoughts about this. Maybe you need to build at least 3 cities (favoring Liberty) yourself, so that happiness/courthouse maintenance/wasted hammers isn't slowing you down. You could still capture early, so 2-city liberty start, build units until Mathematics, then settlers? This ensures better city spots, but delays libraries... on the other hand, the money you're not spending on happiness you can use to rush-buy libraries. The better city spots alone might make this the winning approach. I'm tired of crappy AI city spots!

Thanks, Bleidraner, I do try to post useful info. I know I can be long-winded, but eh

 

[vadalaz]

Finally giving this a shot. I've played around with some different settings, and picking seas as bodies of water seems to produce some sick city spots, but there's not a whole lot of space to settle. On the plus side, all the luxuries are tightly packed so happiness isn't much of an issue. It could work well with early war I'd imagine, settle 2 and annex 2 or something. Another advantage is the AIs are more likely to go for Optics/Iron Working if they're coastal. Also, cargo ships. I prefer self-founded expos though.

Current game is a pretty standard 4-city NC Tradition with Large Lakes. I was hoping for some small seas and potentially a stolen IW/Optics, but that didn't happen. I also tried to delay Drama as much as I could, but I didn't my armies up fast enough to steal it. Still, managed to steal Construction and Engineering from Brazil. I bullied him in the early game, so he was probably going for the Great Wall. I think he does that a lot. Anyway, getting that extra caravan around t70 was very nice. Got a t105 Edu and it's looking like a t121 Secularism unless someone grabs Oracle. 3 AIs are down and I have only 6 cities left to capture. Conquest has been trivial, 3 chariots and a Siege Tower kill cities very quickly.

Worker steals have been weird. I ended up hard-building two and rush-buying another one because the AIs just didn't want to produce any. They seem worse at it on Emperor than on Chieftain...

 

[Cromagnus]

I think it's just random. In my game, I captured so many workers so early I was deleting some before t70 because it was affecting my gpt.

EDIT: Agreed, vadalaz, the large seas are tempting for the cargo ships, but as you noted, the AIs settle in stupid locations and you end up with crappy cities that stall out in the mid-game. Also, the seas definitely slow down conquest. Which can be a bigger issue than it seems. On Emperor the AI can start interfering with your plans if you don't wipe out the map relatively fast. Still, if you manage to find an idea map, *nothing* beats an inland sea for growth potential. If I were going for a peaceful start instead of trying to capture all my cities, I would probably switch back from Small Lakes. But, my current plan of attack is all-out conquest to maximize tribute money, rate of city capture, because, really if you think about it, the hammers *should* even out. (Not having to build settlers, getting a few free libraries, etc. *can* make up for having to manage happiness)

But, so far, I'm finding this approach to be much more difficult. Largely because of stupid AI city spots that don't have long-term potential.

 

[vadalaz]

Yeah, I think seas would work much better on a Large or Huge map - then you can actually get a sea of your own and settle some very nice cities. Standard Lakes with seas leaves very little room for manoeuvering.

 

[vadalaz]

I decided to play it safe and not go for a sub-180, as this is likely my only attempt for this gauntlet. Delayed PP til t135 and won on t183. I reached Atomic on t165, hadn't even finished Rationalism yet, and had enough faith for an extra GS. Should've been a sub-180 easily. Still satisfied with the result though, that was a fun game.

Spoiler :

 

[Bleidraner]

I like the large lakes myself. They do not slow down conquest of the first 3-4 cities, and the speed of the rest is irrelevant. You usually get 2 different luxuries in the caps, that helps happiness, and the AIs are in better spots just because the terrain is richer. Small seas, no. I rolled a couple pf those and too much depends on map luck. Some of those seas mean huge detours, so you need map luck and I prefer to have control.

One last attempt at earlish conquest with no expos. After that I will play a 4 cities tradition all mine and see what happens. In my current game, Mecca has fallen by t60ish within caravan range and Babylon is also within caravan range (some mountains are going to make it slow going, so I estimate t80), cap is doing well. So if this does not work no excuses, I will annex both and play a 3 cities tradition. We'll see.

 

[Bleidraner]

I decided to play it safe and not go for a sub-180, as this is likely my only attempt for this gauntlet. Delayed PP til t135 and won on t183. I reached Atomic on t165, hadn't even finished Rationalism yet, and had enough faith for an extra GS. Should've been a sub-180 easily. Still satisfied with the result though, that was a fun game.

Spoiler :

Great game Vadalaz. He now tempted to retire mine, and try 4 cities tradition immediately. Did you get any free techs? How early did you start the conquest?
EDIT: he that's some sick science that you have going at t165. Do post a write up please.

 

[Manpanzee]

Well, I bow before the power of Tradition. I'm not gonna beat that time.

I've found this gauntlet very interesting and have continued to think about my approach. I finally figured out how I want to build my Civilization and am giving it one last run. Should be sub-200 if I don't screw up.

I'm still doing a 3/4 cities Liberty, Temple of Artemis then army before Libraries. The twist this time is my policy order: Tradition Opener, Full Liberty, Aristocracy. A strong culture game with Liberty often gets two "extra" policies before Rationalism. Aristocracy is the only way to directly get extra happiness with two or fewer extra policies, so it's naturally desirable. The Tradition opener is arguably OP, and there's a lot of wonder building in these games, so the extra hammers really are useful. It all flows really well and feels like the ideal Liberty strategy here.

I'm having a pretty nice happiness game. At Turn 141, I have a size-23 capital and eight cities total... and I have double-digit happiness, with a pillaged luxury still pending improvement. Ceremonial Burial is giving 8 happiness right now. I'm really enjoying being able to carpet Trading Posts around puppet cities.