GAAAA!!!! Newbie Getting Thwacked!

[Vrylakas]

I had to wait until this weekend to finally pick up the game, and of course I spent from Friday evening til late last night playing feverishly - and getting plowed. Clearly the Civ II strategies do not apply. After getting thoroughly trumped in Prince, I retreated to the meager Chieften - and I'm still getting pounded. What the %&^$@! am I doing wrong?

Some observations:

1. No matter the size of the map, no matter how many Civs I put in the game, they always are plopped down within my immediate vicinity which means I spend my first several millennia in war. Any way to correct this?

2. In Civ II I usually had a 20-30 million population by the year 0; in Civ III my record so far is 5 cities! I recall reading a post from Dan M. that we shouldn't build so many cities early in the game; Don't worry Dan - I'm not!

3. I usually clean up on the barbarians but in every single war so far (and there've been lots) my mightiest units almost always fall to pathetic enemy warriors. Last night I had a swordsman with a completely green health-status bar on top of a mountain attack an enemy warrior unfortified on a plain AND I LOST. In all my years of playing Civ II I lost maybe a dozen cities; this weekend I've lost another dozen in Civ III.

Gaaaaa!

Alright, I'll sit and read the damned manual from now on....

 

[eyrei]

Most of this stuff you will have to figure out on your own. Here are couple of hints.

1. Expand quickly and in a circular pattern around your capital. You will discover corruption as soon as you build a few more cities

2. Beware attacking across rivers. I believe the defensive bonus for defending a river crossing is equal to defending a mountain.

3. Make use of geographical chokepoints to seal off a section of map to build your empire in, but remember that the ZOC rules from CIV 2 no longer apply.

 

[Daaraa]

I've noticed I've had to almost throw out all of my Civ 2 Strategies. The game as changed so much that most of it doesn't apply (ie espionage, using the AIs railroad network).
I'd say just be open minded. I got hammered my first game and my brother, who had never even heard of civ 2 or 1 did quite well after reading the manual, skimming the strategy guide and taking the tutorial then starting a real game.

 

[dozenlong]

I got smoked on Cheiftain the first time I played...played again on Cheiftain with the girlfriend and ended up with a relatively quick cultural victory (couldn't get the military together in time to crush everyone else). You'll improve quickly (I usually play at least on Regent, but have been going on Monarch usually or the one just above it.)

 

[Rife]

Really, going from Civ II to Civ III you should get smoked your
first time or two out, because your Civ II instincts are just
all wrong for Civ III. The exception I suppose would be those
rare few that actually read the manual and learn the game first

I got taken over by the Aztecs in the BCs my first time playing
in Warlord (I didn't spend long enough in Chieftan to meet
anyone). The kicker is they swarmed me with masses of
Jaguar Warriors

Only real useful tips I have learned are (I know have beaten
regent):

1. The circular thing should be emphasized again. Expansive
empires are USELESS except for histograph points. On larger
maps your expansion is severely limited even under democracy.
Better to either improve the smaller empire or attack your
enemy. A key area where the expand until you can't anymore
from Civ II fails. That said early on expansion is critical just
learn where to draw the line.

2. Wars and troops. Build lots of them. As many as you can
afford. Always have an invasion force ready cause the AI
can and will attack in swarms and the best counter is a good
mix of offensive and defensive units. Always be prepared for war
from day one to 2050. Again Civ II instincts failed me here
big time as in Civ II the computer can't take over anything.

3. Diplomacy. Most Civ II players ignore it. Here you can't.
Early on save your money and buy techs cheap. You won't
get much ahead in research anyway. Form alliances and try
to make some friends early on but choose your friends
carefully. I generally ally with weaker countries against the
other most powerful country (assuming I am one ). Note,
not only for wars but also trade is important here. Keeping
resources away from the enemy by allying with key countries
works often. Often it backfires if the enemy and his allies
have all the key resources (I am in danger of losing my latest
game cause I am enemies with the only country I can
get aluminum from and he is almost as powerful as me)

 

[Vrylakas]

Thanks for all the help! Last night I managed to claw my way into the 13th century A.D. with maybe 10 cities. I can only imagine what the Civ II advisors would be telling me with this kind of performance...

 

[Vrylakas]

Thanks all again. I've taken your advice to heart and read the manual some, but I'm still having a basic problem: the military! In Civ II I could build a couple phalanxes in each city and reasonably expect them to hold the place against anything and everything until gunpowder and metallurgy came along. The military units all had their value and once you learned them you could develop strategies to defend against or conquer your neighbors.

In Civ III, however, I've lost nearly every single combat I've fought. What gives? My archers and swordsmen are repeatedly defeated in open field battle by enemy warriors. Enemy horsemen successfully took over half my Civ by defeating my fortified ("garrisoned") spearmen (two per city) so I thought I'd do the same in reverse - and my horsemen were always - always! - defeated by a single warrior in each of their cities. What am I doing wrong here? I rarely lost battles, much less wars in Civ II - but every unit I have, no matter how technologically superior I am in the game, is almost always defeated in Civ III. I've abandoned several games in frustration.

Grrrrrrrr!

 

[Bugg]

I had similar problems at first using civ II strategy. One bad habit is keeping a lot of units in your cities. Ive found that when you place them on the borders, sometimes like the Maginot Line it a prevents people from taking a tour of your civ and it discourages them from attacking. It seems that if you spread out your units then the AI will spread out trying to find holes in your line. When you keep them in a city the A.I. is then able to mass attack which it does well.
This A.I. is clever and keeps its promises to attack. After you defeat his first wave be extra careful. He will come at you in a different direction, usually your weak spot. If you go to war be prepared to fight at least 20 turns, this ain't civ II.
Don't hoard techs, hoard resources. The great Library is cool but make sure you get iron early so you can see where you need to settle at.
Mountains mined get three so keep that in mine for wonder building cities. Also you save money by not having to build aqueducts if you build on a river.
The other civ II thing you have to get rid of is your ego. If you are not playing an expansionist civ you will be behind in tech because the exp get better stuff from the hut and they have a scout with 2 move. So try to be friendly if possible. However the A.I. also bluffs alot. So if you feel confident turn down his requests. When you trade a tech away trade it to everyone unless it is something like iron or gunpowder.
What civs do you play? If you want a faster start try an expansionist.
Good Luck

 

[DMW_NZ]

It probably depends on the types of civs you are playing against but one thing I've found so far that has worked for me is to avoid getting bogged down in war early on. I've been friendly with the two civs I started off sharing the continent with and even let them have right of passage through my terrain. Sure enough they built cities inside "my" territory (i.e. land not yet under my control) but I let them do it, concentrating instead on settling the prime real estate.

Alsmost all their cities created in this way now belong to me without a shot being fired and withut me getting off side with them (i.e. those cities decided to join my civ because my culture just rocks). Which is especially good since I've now come across a rather hostile Roman empire on another continent and my poorer neighbours are now my allies - something that might not have happened had I decided to play hard ball with them.

So far I haven't had to fight anybody other than barbarians, and I'm up to 1834AD ...

 

[Knight-Dragon]

"Thanks all again. I've taken your advice to heart and read the manual some, but I'm still having a basic problem: the military! In Civ II I could build a couple phalanxes in each city and reasonably expect them to hold the place against anything and everything until gunpowder and metallurgy came along. The military units all had their value and once you learned them you could develop strategies to defend against or conquer your neighbors."

Build city walls. Sure they become obsolete when your city grows beyond 6 but they're helpful early on, doesn't cost that much and doesn't need maintenance. If possible, churn out vet units. They got 4 hps. And keep your obsolete units too, to make up the numbers. I think the AI is more likely to war on you if you have a smaller no of units vis a vis them. Upgrade them if you can.

And best if you are attked by another civ, get military help fr other civs. Give them money, luxury resource, maybe tech. It's worth it. I got attked by Aztecs in my regent game (I'm number one BTW thru most of time) and dragged all 6 other civs to help me. The Aztecs got punched back fr no 2 to 4 or less. Even far off civs will send their navies to help. Just remember not to make peace with them until your military alliance is up (20 turns) otherwise will incur wrath of your allies. Learn this in one of my games.

"In Civ III, however, I've lost nearly every single combat I've fought. What gives? My archers and swordsmen are repeatedly defeated in open field battle by enemy warriors. Enemy horsemen successfully took over half my Civ by defeating my fortified ("garrisoned") spearmen (two per city) so I thought I'd do the same in reverse - and my horsemen were always - always! - defeated by a single warrior in each of their cities. What am I doing wrong here? I rarely lost battles, much less wars in Civ II - but every unit I have, no matter how technologically superior I am in the game, is almost always defeated in Civ III. I've abandoned several games in frustration."

Frankly I dunno. I haven't really encountered your problems except for odd moments. Usually my units won enough times. Is there a bug in the game you installed? Maybe the enemy units are elite? I also have this theory that if they have a lot of units in a single spot, will be more difficult to attk them there with one unit.

Remember, build artillery too and put them in cities too (catapults, cannons etc). Use them to weaken the enemy if they come near you before finishing them off with a charge. And if they are in a city or tile being defended by some units, it would fire once on the attking enemy unit before commencement of actual battle betw enemy and your def unit.

 

[Knight-Dragon]

"1. No matter the size of the map, no matter how many Civs I put in the game, they always are plopped down within my immediate vicinity which means I spend my first several millennia in war. Any way to correct this?"

Bad luck. Lower down the no of civs and play on a larger map. Even if on same continent, no reason why you must war. I find the AI much more reasonable and logical (and crafty and cunning) than in Civ2. Just expand and claim land. Then build temples fast to enlarge your cultural borders.

"2. In Civ II I usually had a 20-30 million population by the year 0; in Civ III my record so far is 5 cities! I recall reading a post from Dan M. that we shouldn't build so many cities early in the game; Don't worry Dan - I'm not!"

The AI will expand madly to take up every spot in the world incl tundra, deserts etc. Serious. My tactic is to follow them - up to a point. I usually divide my cities into two types - colonial and production. Production are my normal Civ2-style cities - to develop, to pump out units, build wonders etc. These cities shld be located around your capital. Also a string of second cities around a city chosen as site for the second capital (build a Forbidden Palace small wonder in it).

Colonial cities are simply an outpost - to stake claim on a piece of land far away. You see - for future possible resources. I usually try to get all kinds of geographical types fr desert to tundra. And I don't develop them much and garrison them with older units.

"3. I usually clean up on the barbarians but in every single war so far (and there've been lots) my mightiest units almost always fall to pathetic enemy warriors. Last night I had a swordsman with a completely green health-status bar on top of a mountain attack an enemy warrior unfortified on a plain AND I LOST. In all my years of playing Civ II I lost maybe a dozen cities; this weekend I've lost another dozen in Civ III."

??? I only have 'light' units taking on barbs like warriors. In my latest game, earn so much attking and pillaging barb settlements using only 2 warriors all around the southern part of my continent until I fill it all up with cities. Tough luck!

 

[ukrneal]

Military: One way to offset your problems on defense is to pick the Greeks to start. They have good defense (hopolite). Catapults (as some have reccomended) are good for defense too.

Another thing to do is to build barracks. Barracks will produce veterans for you and this can help a lot. I'll bet your losing with regulars, yes?

If you want to improve attacks, Persia is a good beginning civ with the immortals.

If you attack a rival civ, 1-2 units won't do it anymore. You need to attack in force (and with more than one type of unit). So don't send in your forces piecemeal. Gather them together and attack together. This means having a little patience as you get them together and not attacking before you are ready.

Good luck!

 

[pan2]

I second the strategy of building barracks. It's just math-- a veteran or elite unit has a better chance of surviving than a regular. For example, assuming attack and defense strengths are equal, I come up with the following probabilities to win a fight:

veteran vs. regular: 21/32 = 66%
elite vs. veteran: 163/256 = 64%
elite vs. regular: 99/128 = 77%

It's pretty clear that the edge for an expereinced unit is rather substantial.

 

[ironfang]

Its good to hear the pain of the transition from CivII to CivIII is almost gone. Listen to the guys above about the transition strategy. It will do you good. My advice goes as follows.

1. RTFM = (Read the F&*@ing Manual)
2. F3 = Military Advisor
3. Expand Expand Expand
4. Roads Roads Roads
5. Luxuries and Resources
6. Trade Trade Trade
7. Wonders Wonders Wonders
8. Alliances Alliances Alliances

Thats how I would put my emphasis.

 

[narmox]

Originally posted by Vrylakas


3. I usually clean up on the barbarians but in every single war so far (and there've been lots) my mightiest units almost always fall to pathetic enemy warriors. Last night I had a swordsman with a completely green health-status bar on top of a mountain attack an enemy warrior unfortified on a plain AND I LOST. In all my years of playing Civ II I lost maybe a dozen cities; this weekend I've lost another dozen in Civ III.

one thing I've seen mentioned in these forums is that at chieftain, you get a 400% bonus when attacking barbarians, and that bonus goes down as you go up in levels. So of course your warriors won't have trouble attacking barbs, but it won't be as easy attacking other civs...

as for conquest.. combined arms is the key. Horsemen + catapults + swordsmen + spearmen, all have their uses, all must be used (except maybe catapults early on, they're just too slow). Horsemen have the possibility of retreating because of their 2 movement points (except when fighting other mobile units or when the enemy's HP drops to 1, or if they start attacking at 1 hp), so they're very useful in weakening defenses without dying or going after enemy horsemen, invading or retreating forces, etc. Swordsmen are there for the final blow (but even there I often use horsemen, and swordsmen/spearmen are there to defend the city/position agasint counterattacks), and spearmen are used for city defense/keeping the city from reverting back , etc...

And don't you find it fun that you lost 12 cities in a weekend, rather than in 4 years? You actually have a challenge now, and the AI is much better You just have to rethink strategies, don't go to war needlessly... And all the other tips given here already.

 

[OIS]

maybe disable civ specific abilities in your first game whlie your learning all the improvements, units, techs, strats etc. then enable it and test the different civs special abillities and units. worked for me...

 

[Nishdog]

If you want to get a feel for why the computer acts the way it does (why Civs pop up near you, why your units always die, etc...), start a program in your CivIII directory called "civ3mod".
Once there, use the "Rules" menu and select "Edit Rules".

Now you can see the values that effect the game's performance, like hit-points for your units at various levels (regular, veteran, elite) and civ spacing on different map sizes.

At first, I suggest you DO NOT change any of the rules. Just look at them to help you determine things like:
1. Effects of different special resources
2. Civ-specific inclinations (what governments each Civ's AI leans towards/avoids, what units/improvements they tend to build), and "Aggression Level" (I'm guessing this tells you the likelihood of an AI Civ attacking you without provocation).
3. Effects of different government types on your Civ's performance
4. Science "Cost" of each Civilization Advance
_____________
Here's a question I had after viewing these rules myself:
Under the "Civilization" tab, each Civ has something called a "Culture Group" (European, Asian, American, etc..). What does this effect? If I'm not mistaken, members of the same culture group will be more likely to make peace with each other, and be more hostile towards foreign culture groups.
For example, Japan will more readily make peace with India (both Asian) than it would with England (European). Can anybody confirm this or give a better explanation?
_______________
Once you've played the game a few times, then determine what aspects of the game you want to change. You may want to make the game more difficult or easy, or just change a few things around: whatever makes the game more fun for you.

WARNING: BE CAREFUL OF WHAT YOU CHANGE. Some changes may cause the game to act irregularly; if you have any doubts or questions, just post your questions on this message board somewhere and I'm sure someone will be able to answer it for you. There's an entire section on customization on this message board, full of people who are experts at manipulating rules, graphics, and other aspects of the game.

 

[The_Newbie]

they do that and they also make civ's more likely to start near each other

 

[jc011]

in civ2 i could win on king without much difficulty, but when i started out in cheiftain, i was also doing poorly.... even though i would always be in the lead, my science output could never take me to the space race... it took me three tries until i finally made it... you have to go to monarchy as fast as possible and trade anything you can with other civs, which isn't much. If you are in the lead, give other civs techs for 20 gold per turn so you can increase your science output to 100% or 90%... i did this in one game where i was recieveing 400 gold per turn from other civs!

 

[Vrylakas]

All help appreciated again. Clearly, it is not as easy to dominate a game in Civ III as it was in Civ II.

Question: I just can't keep up with the AI's expansion. I'm seriously undermining my cities by trying to constantly build settlers whenever they have a population of at least 3, and yet the AI still has a dozen more cities than I do. I send explorers out and beat the AI to many huts but usually only get $$$, a warrior or maps. We're talking Chieften level here. Am I missing something?