Game Content

[Civrules]

I was hesitant to start this, but I've been curious as to what content might be added to the game that differs from vanilla/PTW/C3C.
For instance, the base Civ III game and the expansions combined have 31 Civs (+ the bonus one).
Is it realistic to expect that there will be even more civs in Civ IV or just the opposite, less? (Happened in between Civ II and Civ III.)

In my opinion, adding more content than what is currently in the Civ III series would be a big deal, and a lot of work.
I don't think I'll be surprised if some things were cut out.
Like Soren has said in his PowerPoint... it is not "stuff" that dictates the sale of the game, but gameplay innovation.

Things that we should expect to be the same/more are recourses, traits, governments, and recources (I might have missed some).

Comments?

 

[dh_epic]

I fear that marketing might drive this decision.

Civs are easy to produce, and an easy way to make people feel like "WOW NEW STUFF!" Look at the number of people whose suggestions on this board center around new wonders, new techs, new units, and new Civs. It's like throwing a bone to a dog -- they're absolutely thrilled, and you didn't have to find any actual meat.

Thus, they'll say "you know, we could probably churn out 32 civs if we spent a week on it." And the marketers will say "no, we decided on 12 Civs. We'll add 10 more for the first expansion pack, and ten more in the second expansion pack. $$$!!!" ... and they'd be right.

 

[llib_rm]

it is not "stuff" that dictates the sale of the game, but gameplay innovation.

Things that we should expect to be the same/more are recourses, traits, governments, and recources (I might have missed some).

Comments?

I would like to see one Civ absorb the traits of others. If Spanish swordsmen captures a Greek city, the captured city should be able to build Spanish Hopilites and construct cheaper religous buildings because the population is primarily Greek.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

I personally would rather see them add excellent BRAND NEW features-such as improved combat and diplomacy-rather than just pack it full of lots of new civs, something which any one of the talented modders here can do !

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[dh_epic]

I wouldn't be too disappointed if the expansion packs are just "new stuff" -- new techs and units. Not that I'd love it, but I've come to expect it from most expansion packs. Same engine, same gameplay, but more of it.

I wouldn't even be that dispappointed if Civ 4 took a step back content wise from what was bulit in the C3 expansions. Back down to the original 16 Civs would be a step backwards, but one that's easily resolved with good modders.

Aussie is right. The the most disappointing thing that Civ 4 could be is almost the exact opposite worry of this thread: new/improved content, but the same Civ 3 features and gameplay.

New graphics, new civs, new techs, new units, new buildings, new wonders, and not a single compelling new feature. That would be the worst.

 

[Civrules]

A quote from Soren's PowerPoint which has something to do with it:

Making everything a little better is going to be much less compelling to the player than a significant improvement in one or two areas…

 

[dh_epic]

Unfortunately, those "one or two areas" we've heard about are:

- Religion (because players don't have enough reasons to declare war on demand)
- Civics (which could be promising if anyone could agree what it is)
- Health (which might be an elegant replacement for some old features, but not a killer feature in itself)

I'm just hoping that "the best is yet to come" as they say. Truth be told, they really haven't given us a lot of information, even though we've been running with a lot.

 

[Civrules]

Unfortunately, those "one or two areas" we've heard about are:

- Religion (because players don't have enough reasons to declare war on demand)
- Civics (which could be promising if anyone could agree what it is)
- Health (which might be an elegant replacement for some old features, but not a killer feature in itself)

I'm just hoping that "the best is yet to come" as they say. Truth be told, they really haven't given us a lot of information, even though we've been running with a lot.

That is true, and it just so happens that officially, nothing official has been released yet.
Never go on the small side-details they give you at first just to satisfy your thirst until more major news comes.

I confidently believe that a lot more detailed information is to come. And I can pretty much say that I'm almost 100% certain that religion, civics, and the health system are definitely not the only major changes or additions to the game. They are new aspects. We still have to hear about a lot more improvements.

BTW, March is also the month where we'll probably see the first official previews on various sites (IGN, Gamespot, etc). But even after they are released, they will still definitely not give out all the major changes until after E3.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Perhaps I am more of an optimist than you are, DH_Epic, but I like to believe that religion will be far, FAR more than just 'another excuse to go to war'. In fact, hopefully it will give certain nations greater disincentives NOT to go to war with one another-due in part to their shared religion (an idea I would like to see extended to governments as well !)
As I have said before, I would like to see the militaristic elements of the game 'toned down' significantly, and have diplomacy, Culture, trade, epsionage and domestic politics brought much more 'front and centre'!!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[dh_epic]

My thinking is almost the reverse, Aussie. I hope they allow existing factors like government, culture, and even your relationship (gracious/polite...) to impact your "international chemistry" (an idea I'd like to see extended to religion as well, if they find the time to implement it afterwards).

Unfortunately, I feel like they're putting the cart before the horse. It's more that religion will be implemented as a one dimensional feature FIRST, and THEN they stop before implementing "international chemistry" because that would be "too complex -- we already added religion, we can't add anything else!"

And you're stuck with Civ 3, plus 3D graphics, and a one dimensional feature that lets you build a few new wonders and units, and declare a second kind of war that's not significantly different from the first.

You're right, you're more of an optimist than me

 

[mhIdA]

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think one or the killer feature could be battles a la RTS games. I thought this after someone noted a square in screenshots (the one with Cologne city) wich increase market of civ into RTS fans.

 

[Darwin420]

Content is definitely more important than gimmick. I'm looking forward to enhancements in culture (civics/religion/etc), diplomacy & espionage, economics. I'd also like to see the game become LESS war-focused. Yes, war has continually shaped human history, but it's not the end all be all. The coffee bean has had as much profound impact on the world in the last few centuries as any world war, though on a SOCIAL level - something that is almost completely ignored in Civ.

I'd like to have more options than having to fight all the time... the options in previous Civ games are too much 'candy' and not enough 'meat' ...

I'll buy cIV anyway, but this is what I'd like to see, content wise.

 

[dh_epic]

Hey Darwin420,

I think Civrules was trying to differentiate between new features and new content.

New content is like adding a Fascist government -- which is exactly the same as all other governments, except that they tweaked some numbers and a name. Or adding a "Jet Engines" tech to the game, which is exactly the same as other techs except that it has a different graphic and name. Or adding an "Infantry" unit, which is exactly the same as other units except that it has a different name, graphic, and set of numbers.

A new feature is like culture in Civ 3, or great leaders. Something that can't be accomplished by simply changing the art/name/numbers of something already in the game.

With that in mind, I'm chronically worried that the developers are going to bombard us with new content in an effort to distract us from the fact that there are no new features.

 

[Darwin420]

dh_epic:

I disagree with you. I think that cIV will carry a lot of new features... each previous version of the game did. I also think that, yes, we will be bombarded with more useless content, and probably a few expansions that will numb us with "more of the same... but different" (and costing a bunch of $$$)

 

[dh_epic]

I hope you're right Darwin420.

Although I will agree with you -- they'll probably make the expansions highly content driven with very few new features. And I suspect they'll hold back the number of Civilizations -- where they could produce 10 new Civilizations in 2 weeks -- for future expansions, just to keep us hungry for more.