Gap between Cavalry and tanks

Corvenus

Chieftain
Joined
Jan 22, 2002
Messages
12
First question: Why is there such a huge gap in offensive units, between Cavalry and tanks? Cavalry domination only lasts until the advent of Rifleman (and there isn't much of a time gap between military tradition and nationalism), and with the discovery of Infantry (which can come shortly after Rifleman), warfare is just not an option, unless you outnumber your opponent 5 to 1. You have to wait for Tanks, to see offensive units gain the upper hand. It takes a whole era to go from offensive value from 6 (cav) to 16 (tank), with nothing in between. This is a HUGE gap.

And i'm wondering, is that historically justified? As far as i can tell, this era could be represented by the 18-19th centuries or so (1700-1900), but like with any other century, there were wars fought then. Was war fought only by infantry and canons? Would there be an offensive unit to implement in a mod that would make sense?

Since i only play Diety, and i'm usually 10-15 techs behind around that time, i have a hard time when i'm at war during that period. The other civs typically have tanks 50 turns or more before i do. I still have managed to win some wars with infantry and artillery only, but it's loooong and tedious, and requires an indecent amount of troops.

Second question: What do you usually do during that gap? use that period to develop your cities?

Thanks for any input!

-corv-
 
Artillery are the most effective units during this time. Chances are, a 6 attack cavalry or infantry will be able to defeat a one hit point defending infantry. If I must fight during this time, I build as many artillery as any other unit.
 
The strong Infantry reflects the era of WWI where entrenched infantry was unbeatable. Cavalry wasn't very successful against Infantry, mounted on a horse they were an easy target. When the shooter unmounted he continued to be a good target. Tanks are difficult to stop and to beat. A Tank has a powerful cannon and heavy machine guns and is at least as fast as a horse. Simple rifles don't do much harm to a tank.
 
It is one of the more interesting stages of the game. When wars drag down to bloody killing fields & not much territory can be gained. Like Eyrei said, Artillery is a must.

Gaining the upper hand during this time is tough, but also after capturing territory, it is tough for them to get it back as well. As soon this time hits, if I must fight, I resort to more wartime strategy than the closest city attack. I resort to more pillaging, bombarding, & resource & luxury takeouts.

Often I find the AI during this time is tough to crack, but after a while, you will be facing mostly conscript draftees which aren't too tough for your cavalry. I find a lot of cities protected by perhaps only 1 or 2 vet infantry units & the rest conscripts.

Perhaps someone uses some sort of army to crack the first unit?
 
Originally posted by Mapache
The strong Infantry reflects the era of WWI where entrenched infantry was unbeatable. Cavalry wasn't very successful against Infantry, mounted on a horse they were an easy target. When the shooter unmounted he continued to be a good target. Tanks are difficult to stop and to beat. A Tank has a powerful cannon and heavy machine guns and is at least as fast as a horse. Simple rifles don't do much harm to a tank.

Here's something to add to that:

When infantry began to use assault rifles and light machine guns they were able to attack places not just defend. So why is there no attack infantry in the modern age? It's not like they only use tanks.

Also what is mech infantry? Is it supposed to be some type of tank? It clearly is not an apc.
 
Originally posted by Reichsmarshal



Also what is mech infantry? Is it supposed to be some type of tank? It clearly is not an apc.

I think it is supposed to represent the increased mobility and firepower of modern infantry.
 
I think the unit that we're missing is the WW1 Tank (such as the British Mk4) - that could easily be used to bridge the existing gap between Cavalry and Tanks. Tanks as portrayed in Civ3 really represent WW2 tanks and on that basis are correclty far superior to Cavalry.

If/when the scenario editor and tools are improved, I'd planned to work on a 20th Century scenario, and the Mk4 tank would been my first desired unit. (Anyone want to build one?).
 
Originally posted by Reichsmarshal
When infantry began to use assault rifles and light machine guns they were able to attack places not just defend. So why is there no attack infantry in the modern age? It's not like they only use tanks.

Marines fill this function, I think.

Oh and the mech infantry are bradley fighting vehicles, BMPs, Marders, etc.
 
I like that the wars and the tactics that must be used to win changes as you get more advanced tech. Using different strategies in different eras adds a lot to the fun of playing.

(and there was historically a huge gap when german tanks fought polish cavalry)
 
Of course it is even worse when no body bothers to research calvery (or even knights). I just finished a game in which the attacking force in the industrial age were long bow men. After getting dragged into the war I tried to find an offensive unit other than riflemen I realized I needed to research calvery. Though one did not have to worry about artillary staying up with the attackers, since the attackrs could only move one space a turn as well :).
 
If Civ III made more sense it would have done the following things:

1. Added a musket-infantry unit with greater offensive punch reflecting bayonet-armed musketmen of around 1800, as opposed to the primitive musketmen of 1600.

2. Created a horse cannon unit with a MP of '2'. Can keep up with attacking armies.

3. Gave the stupid AI the brains to use artillery/cannon in invasions.

4. Created a Shock Troops unit to reflect superior offensive infantry tactics as started by the Germans in 1917, that before tanks.


To be realistic, cavalry should have no chance against even riflemen. But the above changes would help the offensive aspect of the game.

Of course, the Civ III mod is so lame and slapped together it lacks important units, and lacks the ability to add units in the Editor without major hacking and then possible crashing.
 
Originally posted by Corvenus
And i'm wondering, is that historically justified? As far as i can tell, this era could be represented by the 18-19th centuries or so (1700-1900), but like with any other century, there were wars fought then. Was war fought only by infantry and canons? Would there be an offensive unit to implement in a mod that would make sense?
-corv-

The era of gunpowder is a time of ever increasing firepower. Interestingly, that makes them defensive weapons. The killing power of gunpowder increased steadily over time. In Napoleon's time, thousands would die in a day. By the time of the Civil War, 6000 casualties in 15 minutes at Cold Harbor. But few really understood this concept until after wwi. The generals kept believing that enough firepower concentrated in one place would break infantry lines -- but it didn't. Even massive artillery bombardment didn't break lines, though it did cause massive suffering.

Look at Afghanistan! A few hundred militia are still hiding and killing even after a sustained bombardment of a type which only just became available.

If 100 men cross a field to meet in combat 100 guys shooting from behind rocks, the attacker will probably lose. The more advanced the guns, the better the defensive position. With muskets, maybe you would have time to run up before they could reload. But with modern infantry weapons, there would be almost no chance of survival. Defender wins.

The reason so many Americans love their guns is because gunpowder made the ordinary peasant a free citizen. With gunpowder he could always make invaders pay a high price, maybe too high a price. Gunpowder nations are prickly all over, like a porcupine, and best left alone.

If guns are primarily defensive weapons, which they are, then combat requires bombard.

http://www.crowncity.net/civ3/Infantry.htm

InfantryIcon.jpg
 
Originally posted by eyrei


I think it is supposed to represent the increased mobility and firepower of modern infantry.

Mech "infantry" can't even really attack. There should be a real modern infantry. Not just a fighting vehicle.


Marines fill this function, I think.

Oh and the mech infantry are bradley fighting vehicles, BMPs, Marders, etc


Marine is 8/6 and has 1 movement. Infantry is 6/10 Mech "infantry' is 12/18 and has 2 movement, Modern armor has 24 attack and 3 movement.


Infantry attack as often as they defend in real war so why is there no attack infantry?

That would solve the problem with using cavarly so long. The game does not need more tanks, it needs other stuff. (a sniper would be good)

The final infantry (needs a good name) could have 2 movement since modern armor has 3. It is denial to say that would somewho be unbalancing.


If Civ III made more sense it would have done the following things:

1. Added a musket-infantry unit with greater offensive punch reflecting bayonet-armed musketmen of around 1800, as opposed to the primitive musketmen of 1600.

2. Created a horse cannon unit with a MP of '2'. Can keep up with attacking armies.

3. Gave the stupid AI the brains to use artillery/cannon in invasions.

4. Created a Shock Troops unit to reflect superior offensive infantry tactics as started by the Germans in 1917, that before tanks.


To be realistic, cavalry should have no chance against even riflemen. But the above changes would help the offensive aspect of the game.

Of course, the Civ III mod is so lame and slapped together it lacks important units, and lacks the ability to add units in the Editor without major hacking and then possible crashing.


The Shock Troop is a good idea :goodjob:

There are too few offense options. It's always tank/modern armor vs mech infantry.

If only it were easier to create units- that would solve the problem entirely.

Marine and Paratrooper don't come anywhere near solving the problem they have hideous stats and movement and cost as much as the best units.
 
Originally posted by Zachriel
.....

* Lee had these fortifications built at the beginning of the war when everyone believed the war would be decided quickly with one battle. The armies were not bigger than in Napoleonic times, but the defensive quality of the weapons had made it very difficult to destroy an entire army at one time. The soldiers called him "Granny Lee" because they didn't think they would ever need trenches. The war would be over by autumn.

If they are both fighting on GRASSLANDS AND PLAINS the attacker would have a preemptive strike and thus and advantage.

Hit and Run isn't defenisve. Also when attacking it is not like they are suiciding.
 
Originally posted by Reichsmarshal
If they are both fighting on GRASSLANDS AND PLAINS the attacker would have a preemptive strike and thus and advantage.

Hit and Run isn't defenisve. Also when attacking it is not like they are suiciding.

It is certainly possible to get an advantage with infantry, and certainly every army tries. But it normally requires at least a 3-1 advantage. And that's assuming they aren't dug in. Then you need 10-1, even with all the infiltration tricks in the book. Hence, advantage defense.

Look at the history. From musket and cannon to infantry and artillery, combat has a defensive nature with increasing numbers of casualties. You've got to pay in blood to gain ground. This era ended with the advent of the tank.
 
Originally posted by Zachriel


It is certainly possible to get an advantage with infantry, and certainly every army tries. But it normally requires at least a 3-1 advantage. And that's assuming they aren't dug in. Then you need 10-1, even with all the infiltration tricks in the book. Hence, advantage defense.

Look at the history. From musket and cannon to infantry and artillery, combat has a defensive nature with increasing numbers of casualties. You've got to pay in blood to gain ground. This era ended with the advent of the tank.

That's why there is a bonus for fortifying and defending cities. That is what the fortification literally represents. Also a better trained offensive force can win against an inferior defense force like the United States against the Taliban (unlike Civ 3).

Trenches gradually have been reduced in influence, much like swords and other weapons. The difference is though, infantry generally made up most of every army.

The game already represents the dug in defense. There should be infantry with higher attack, since weapons like grenades, rocket launchers, grenade launchers are very anti defense, anti fortification. While offense should require bombardment it should not be done exclusively by tanks.

Tanks have been in decline after world war 2. Eventually they will go obsolete (in the distant future.) Infantry will never go obsolete.

Also why do marines and paratroopers have such poor attack? Does the game not realize that marines are offensively do amphibous assaults? What is the point of a 6 attack paratrooper for offense?

Offense units should have good attack. Defense units good defense.
 
I have often been frustrated with the difficulty in attacking prior to tanks, but the more I have thought about it, I think that the CIV III system is actually pretty realistic for WWI era battles. Yes, infantry attacked as often as it defended, but the general rule in military planning (even to this day) is that to attack, you should have 3-1 superiority at the point of attack. Infantry will usually lose to infantry, as it should, but three infantry will usually beat one, especially with artillery prep. This is where the value of armies comes in (Although I think they are too expensive), three infantry in an army can usually take out the best defender, then recover. Three individual infantry can still win, but you will lose one or two in the process.

If you look at the history, post-Napoleon, most battles against entrenched infantry were slaughters for the attackers. Napoleon was still able to use cavalry to outflank his opponents, or mass infantry for a charge, but they were still predominantly musket infantry at that point.

During the Civil War, (which would equate to Riflemen, IMHO), Cavalry was best used for scouting or raiding (pillaging), or occasional attacks against scattered detachments (conscripts?). Forrest, Stuart, even Sheridan did not make there reputation assaulting defended cities. In fact, fortified cities such as Vicksburg or Richmond were able to withstand sieges for years, and only fell when on the brink of starvation after constant bombardment and isolation. (And yes, their populations were reduced in the process, and many improvements destroyed.) Most other major battles involved infantry vs. infantry, and the defense always had an advantage, unless one side's morale could be broken. This is harder to simulate, but I look at elite/veteran/regular/conscript as a parallel to this. An elite riflemen could beat a conscript one on one, three of them for sure could.

The next major wars were the Austro-Prussian war of 1866 and the Franco-Prussian war of 1870. At first glance, this would seem to defeat my premise, since the Prussians were able to defeat their oponents in one decisive battle. However, there is more involved than that. Having just finished a paper on the Franco-Prussian war for Command & General Staff College, I was suprised to learn that the new improved rifles of the Prussians (the "Needle Gun" first used at Konigsgratz) were not as decisive a factor as popularily believed. There were a number of other factors involved, including concentrating more troops on the battlefield quicker, and the improved quality of training for the Prussian conscript troops. However, one of the biggest factors vs. the French was the superior rifled artillery, vs the French who were still using older field pieces. In game terms, they both had Infantry, but the Prussians had Artillery, while the French had cannons. After sufficient bombardment, the French morale was at the breaking point (1HP), and the Prussian infantry was able to overwhelm them.

WWI showed all powers with fairly equivalent infantry and artillery initially. The Germans made impressive gains early due to suprise, better mobilization, and out-maneuvering the allies, but once the fronts streched out so there were no more flanks to take, it bogged down to the trench warfare we all know. The only way to advance was to mass a huge force in a small area, pummel it with bombardment, and then rush "over the top". After a short gain, however, reserves would fill the gaps and the offensive would bog down. That is what Infantry warfare in Civ3 can get to. Towns are expensive to attack without huge bombardments, then the infantry pounds away with big losses. Armies can help to some extent, because the first two units can recover, and are not totally lost. This drove the invention of the early tanks, and planes, as ways to overcome the trenches. In fact, however, this new technology was not as decisive as the fact the Germans reached economic and manpower exhaustion, while the Allies were boosted by the fresh troops and factorys of the Americans.

Sorry, this turned into way more than I wanted to, but I do believe that the current system is pretty realistic, even if it is frustrating. Infantry combat heavily favors the defensive, unless the enemy makes some dumb mistakes (like the AI does), but it is possible if you are willing to mass and overwhelm the enemy, with heavy bombardment. There were at times heavy infantry or other formations that were designated for assaults (Napoleon's Guards, the German Stormtroopers, etc), but rather than showing new units, I see those as being the Elite units already in the game.
 
I agree with Reichmarshal and Zouve on this one.
Several points(somewhat like a rant):

1. There should be an *offensive* infantry. Why you ask? Well say a nation has *zero* oil. They have to build "riflemen" or infantry, which means that they are utterly useless at attacking in other words. There should be a modern infantry that has about 18 attack/16 defense that costs the same as "mech" infantry. Also this units would have 2 movement(speed does increase due to phsyical trainning and fitness). This unit would require only rubber which is very common to build. The tech would be something like Synthetic fibers.

2. I'll agree that the defender should have some advantage in gunpowder and beyond eras. This is already the case since any defensive units beyond riflemen *OWNS* at defending. Example Infantry often as an advantage against tanks in most cities. Also Mech Infantry are *VERY* powerful at defending. With a large city they can have *****40+******* Defense!!! Lol, a little bit of a rant here. Anyways the defense units are fine, except for one thing... they generally suck pretty bad at attacking however I would not condone changing their stats. The reason defenders defend so well is that you can simply use bombardment units to help pummel the city before launcing the melee attack. Bombard units do miss quite often though.

3. As I stated I don't suggest changing cavalry, tank, or modern armor. Just simply said that a new offensive infantry should be added.

4. Mech infantry is fine in the game(don't change it), however in real life it is bull****. There is no such unit as this "thing". Appranetly it is some sort of tank? It looks more like a tank than a TANK does lol!:lol:
I think mech infantry in Real Life is either a jeep kinda thing *or* some sort of well armed APC.

I think that sums it up :)
 
About mech "infantry".

How do you explain that they do so good against modern armor when tanks are good against vehicles and TRENCHES DO NOT DO ANYTHING IN TANK COMBAT!!!! Modern Armor comes considerbaly later and has problems if the mech infantry is in a city.

That is not realistic.

It is not realistic that there is not offense infantry.

After World War 1 trenches began to break down.

Also both units are fighting on sepreate panels. They are technically fighting at long range, not melee combat. That means both could be using fortifications.

The attacker should have an advantage when the defender is not fortified and not in a city.

Is tank the only unit used to attack in real life?
:lol:

Tanks can be used for defense in real life also.

Conclusion: there should be offensive infantry. It doesn't have to be a killer, it should be a cheaper alterernantive to tanks.

"TANK,TANK,TANK, Win!!!!!" - Civ 3

That is realistic and logical. Premeptive strikes/ambushes kill

Mobility is a key part of modern battles.
 
So What is Modern Armour?As the Americans proved in the Gulf War Even the most sophisticated Tank(Modern Armour) is a useless deathtrap(against Smart weapons)Ask an Iraqi Tank man if you can find one.
Somewhat like when tanks were first introduced,the infantry stayed close to them for protection, but when they realized the tank was the main target infantry got as far away as possible.
This imo is a major flaw of Civ3 in that modern warfare is not realistically portrayed,if it's even possible..what is modern warfare??Gunning down starving peasants??????
 
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