godotnut
Inverted Unicycle
Man, you guys make me want to play this one just one more time...
Gauntlet Three
- Thread starter Dianthus
- Start date
BlueRenner
Warlord
- Joined
- Nov 9, 2001
- Messages
- 121
This is one element short of being the perfect start for this gauntlet: there are no hills/plains I can move that settler on to so to get a +1p in the city, while still allowing work boats to be built. I'd absolutely love it if that first gold hill was 1 tile south, so I could settle on it on the coast.
Yeah, the generator throws out a lot of garbage starts, but every once in awhile your eyes just pop.
- Bill
godotnut
Inverted Unicycle
Wow. Let us know what your other two cultural sites look like.
Say never never 
, if you have a location short on food and several bonus commerce fields it would be the way to go - well for gauntlet you would of course start over.
This startlocation looks fantastic, which civ are you playing in this one BlueRenner ?
, if you have a location short on food and several bonus commerce fields it would be the way to go - well for gauntlet you would of course start over.This startlocation looks fantastic, which civ are you playing in this one BlueRenner ?
Think he is a lizzie man.
Yeah, you can get fantastic locations every once in a while. I tend to think the better the starting location, the bigger the chance that you will get screwed for some reason. I had a great spot, pig, pig/hill, corn, stone 2 squares away. Had 2 plains hills and 1 plains, rest were grasslands and almost all were on rivers. I then proceeded to see that the next 20+ squares in both directions were mainly desert
Yeah, you can get fantastic locations every once in a while. I tend to think the better the starting location, the bigger the chance that you will get screwed for some reason. I had a great spot, pig, pig/hill, corn, stone 2 squares away. Had 2 plains hills and 1 plains, rest were grasslands and almost all were on rivers. I then proceeded to see that the next 20+ squares in both directions were mainly desert
BlueRenner
Warlord
- Joined
- Nov 9, 2001
- Messages
- 121
I would only settle on a Gold Hill on the condition that it will give me +1p in addition to the +1c, AND I have another gold hill nearby.
The important thing about settling on a hill is that it gives you that extra free production for the whole game, but it also gets you that first worker 5 turns earlier. I haven't measured precisely how much faster it gets you the first settler, but I imagine its on the order of 10~12 turns. Hard to underestimate that, especially since my entire game is built around settling AI territory before the AI can get there.
I've found that while a single Gold Hill is good, two tend to be overkill. I'd rather take the production and the commerce now, than wait 100, 150 turns or so until I can afford to work both. By that time, the cottages should be the dominant tech force, anyway. With those clams, though, its a very debatable call.. it'd be fairly easy to work both hills and still grow once the city hits size 5.
And, since godonut asked...
These two sites are merely adequate. I tend to save the really fantastic spots (bonus wise) for my GP cities. They tend to need it more.
And yes, it is Elizibeth.
- Bill
The important thing about settling on a hill is that it gives you that extra free production for the whole game, but it also gets you that first worker 5 turns earlier. I haven't measured precisely how much faster it gets you the first settler, but I imagine its on the order of 10~12 turns. Hard to underestimate that, especially since my entire game is built around settling AI territory before the AI can get there.
I've found that while a single Gold Hill is good, two tend to be overkill. I'd rather take the production and the commerce now, than wait 100, 150 turns or so until I can afford to work both. By that time, the cottages should be the dominant tech force, anyway. With those clams, though, its a very debatable call.. it'd be fairly easy to work both hills and still grow once the city hits size 5.
And, since godonut asked...
These two sites are merely adequate. I tend to save the really fantastic spots (bonus wise) for my GP cities. They tend to need it more.
And yes, it is Elizibeth.
- Bill
Nice start, what map config?
Now if that hut gave you bronze then you're all set.
Also I'd settle on a gold if the placement is good and I had an extra. A solo one I wouldn't unless maybe it was a desert hill. You do lose a lot doing that though, I'd rather settle on a dye or another weaker resource for that bonus gold.
Now if that hut gave you bronze then you're all set.
Also I'd settle on a gold if the placement is good and I had an extra. A solo one I wouldn't unless maybe it was a desert hill. You do lose a lot doing that though, I'd rather settle on a dye or another weaker resource for that bonus gold.
BlueRenner
Warlord
- Joined
- Nov 9, 2001
- Messages
- 121
Small Balanced Tropical.
See, the evil thing is that its impossible for that hut to give me bronze working, or any tech at all.
If I settle my city right where I am, the cultural borders will pop the hut. Then if the random generator decides that its a tech hut... it will fizzle and I'll get nothing, because my tech tree hasn't started yet, because my city isn't formally up and running yet.
Its a bug. A very annoying bug.
I tested this out on another map. I popped a 1st turn hut with a city and the hut just vanished. I blinked, then reloaded. Did it again the exact same way.. and the hut vanished again. Reloaded, moved the settler 1 square away, so the cultural border didn't pop the hut, then popped it with the warrior. Sure enough, I got Hunting.
Beware. Try not to pop huts until your first city is solidly founded. You run the risk of tossing away a tech.
On a totally different topic, I'm not at all sure I want Bronze out of that hut. There are interesting dynamics going on here, mainly revolving around the Gold Hill. On Marathon speed, there's time to build a mine with your first worker before you get Bronze. This means while your worker is chopping for the next 20-30 turns, that city is working the gold, pulling in what amounts to double tech, getting you to Pottery faster.
If you get Bronze right away and skip the mine to go straight for the chop, you lose out on the early gold mine and the double tech it produces (unless you don't chop right away, which is something I've never been able to discipine myself to do). I'd much rather pull Agriculture.
- Bill
See, the evil thing is that its impossible for that hut to give me bronze working, or any tech at all.
If I settle my city right where I am, the cultural borders will pop the hut. Then if the random generator decides that its a tech hut... it will fizzle and I'll get nothing, because my tech tree hasn't started yet, because my city isn't formally up and running yet.
Its a bug. A very annoying bug.
I tested this out on another map. I popped a 1st turn hut with a city and the hut just vanished. I blinked, then reloaded. Did it again the exact same way.. and the hut vanished again. Reloaded, moved the settler 1 square away, so the cultural border didn't pop the hut, then popped it with the warrior. Sure enough, I got Hunting.
Beware. Try not to pop huts until your first city is solidly founded. You run the risk of tossing away a tech.
On a totally different topic, I'm not at all sure I want Bronze out of that hut. There are interesting dynamics going on here, mainly revolving around the Gold Hill. On Marathon speed, there's time to build a mine with your first worker before you get Bronze. This means while your worker is chopping for the next 20-30 turns, that city is working the gold, pulling in what amounts to double tech, getting you to Pottery faster.
If you get Bronze right away and skip the mine to go straight for the chop, you lose out on the early gold mine and the double tech it produces (unless you don't chop right away, which is something I've never been able to discipine myself to do). I'd much rather pull Agriculture.
- Bill
Bronze is better if you mine the hill first, but I doubt I could do that either. I would say popping wheel would be good. I like popping mysticism but that is just me.
Do you happen to have that save file where you popped a tech hut with your cultural boundaries? If so, try going to the tech tree and setting you first research path. Then pop it. Also, if you set your first research path and save the game before you regen the map, it will save the tech path. I do that to avoid having to keep hitting bronze if a settle a new city.
Do you happen to have that save file where you popped a tech hut with your cultural boundaries? If so, try going to the tech tree and setting you first research path. Then pop it. Also, if you set your first research path and save the game before you regen the map, it will save the tech path. I do that to avoid having to keep hitting bronze if a settle a new city.
Oh yeah, forgot the reason I posted in the first place. I had my best finish with Lizzie, 1466. I have been doing better with Huanya though. I thought I played the game amazingly well. Didn't make any real big mistakes. I was beaten to Oracle by a decent amount of turns which hurts me a lot. I I use the Oracle for Code of Laws so I can bypass drama. That probably cost me a few turns right there. I missed the Sistine Chapel by a few turns but that isn't a huge deal, and I did like the cash I got from it. I missed Liberalism by 2 turns. Which hurt a lot. Took me 18 turns for Nationalism I think?
Another mistake I made was that I flipped 6 cities, 5 during culture phase. I was stupid and saved them because they were in good locations and decent sizes. I should have traded them off, I didn't htink about that. I could have gotten some free tech out of it.
All together, I think missing the Oracle and Liberalism cost me 25-30 turns, maybe more. By keeping those cities I flipped it cost me about 15-20 turns of running at 80% culture, so maybe 5 turns on that. I could have finished 1390 or so with Lizzie.
I have no idea how you guys can get sub 1300 with her, I really don't.
Anyone with a sub-1300 game care to share their ending save file so I can look at city placement, buildings, etc.
Another mistake I made was that I flipped 6 cities, 5 during culture phase. I was stupid and saved them because they were in good locations and decent sizes. I should have traded them off, I didn't htink about that. I could have gotten some free tech out of it.
All together, I think missing the Oracle and Liberalism cost me 25-30 turns, maybe more. By keeping those cities I flipped it cost me about 15-20 turns of running at 80% culture, so maybe 5 turns on that. I could have finished 1390 or so with Lizzie.
I have no idea how you guys can get sub 1300 with her, I really don't.
Anyone with a sub-1300 game care to share their ending save file so I can look at city placement, buildings, etc.
BlueRenner
Warlord
- Joined
- Nov 9, 2001
- Messages
- 121
I don't have the cultural-popping save game anymore. I was using the Autosave, and it got overwritten. I'll try the tech-tree-first plan next time I come up against the bug. Good idea.
I've attached the turn before victory save on the 1226 game. Go nuts.
- Bill
I've attached the turn before victory save on the 1226 game. Go nuts.
- Bill
Thanks! That helps out a lot. I think I figured out my entire problem, I am doing WAY too much. I build too many buildings, improve too many tiles, and overall put in more work than I need to, but in turn it takes me a lot longer to do that work. I will try playing a little more minimalistic tomorrow and see what I can come up with.
My research times are about the same as yours, but I spend too much time building unecessary stuff that I shouldn't be building. I over-develop my GP cities as well. Taking the extra time to develop them is killing my GP production.
My research times are about the same as yours, but I spend too much time building unecessary stuff that I shouldn't be building. I over-develop my GP cities as well. Taking the extra time to develop them is killing my GP production.
One other advantage of LvR Battleground is that trade is "overseas". This allows mercahnt specialists and great merchants to become viable strategy components.Big_Ben said:
Traditionally, merchant specialists are desirable in your non-culture cities because they allow your to generate more cash, which allows higher science or culture slider. The downside (which is huge in connected games) is that you don't really want great merchants. This changes a bit in disconnected maps. A great merchant can be turned into 5000+ gold late (around 1000 AD)which can potentially be turned into more than 12,000 culture in your 3 culture cities, depending on the overall state of your economy (how big a cash deficit you run at 100% culture). Alternatively, a great merchant can be used earlier for 3900 or so gold, which can be used to rush buy cathedrals. You definitely don't want a lot of merchants, but the disconnected maps give you a bit more flexibility in what you generate.
In any case, a minor optimization that is useful is to turn all your specialists in your non-culture great person cities into merchants as soon as that city has produced its last great person. The extra income may allow you to run the culture slider at 100% for a bit longer, which may mean a turn or two savings on the win date.
I have gotten all seven religions in my cities several times. Like Smirk said, once you get 4-5 it is hard to get the others to spread. The random missionary from your opponents won't spread the religion to you very easily. The only times I have gotten all 7 religions have been when I have founded the first 6 and don't actively spread them. Whenever someone founds Islam they are all about spreading it to other cities, you can usually pick it up.
Having all 7 religions is expensive. Unless you are spiritual the temples and cathedrals are extremely expensive.
Having all 7 religions is expensive. Unless you are spiritual the temples and cathedrals are extremely expensive.
1184 AD win with Elizabeth against Mansa, Hattie, and Washington on a balanced, low sea levels, tropical map.
I founded 0 religions. 4 spread to me. I built 11 total cathedrals.
I had stone and copper, but no marble (1 of my religions, Hinduism, required marble).
I built the Pyramids and Parthenon early. I built Hanging Gardens in a non-culture city (it had high production). I built Sistine and Taj Mahal with engineers.
Basic tech path was Bronze -> Pottery -> Masonry -> Alphabet -> Music -> Philosophy -> Liberalism -> Nationalism (free) -> Printing Press -> Banking
I only built cities. 4 cities seems ideal to maintain a quick tech pace, but sometimes you need the 5th. Each city served a specific purpose. 3 cities settled for cottage potential (culture), 1 for excess food (2 fish and 1 grassland/pig = 7 specialists) and great person production, and 1 for stone (and general missionary production). I was prepared to build a 6th city around 500 AD, but an AI city flipped.
I had no gold at the start, though I did have a riverside plains/wine to produce a pre-cottage tech boost.
In the end, I produced 2 great engineers and 14 great artists (including the free music GA).
Based on my relatively low religion and wonder production, I think there is still room for lots of further optimization. I also placed The Hermitage very badly (I put it in my top culture city, instead of my usual practice of putting it in my 2nd best culture city). That city ended with 165,000 culture, which is a huge inefficiency. That cost me 6 or 7 turns.
I founded 0 religions. 4 spread to me. I built 11 total cathedrals.
I had stone and copper, but no marble (1 of my religions, Hinduism, required marble).
I built the Pyramids and Parthenon early. I built Hanging Gardens in a non-culture city (it had high production). I built Sistine and Taj Mahal with engineers.
Basic tech path was Bronze -> Pottery -> Masonry -> Alphabet -> Music -> Philosophy -> Liberalism -> Nationalism (free) -> Printing Press -> Banking
I only built cities. 4 cities seems ideal to maintain a quick tech pace, but sometimes you need the 5th. Each city served a specific purpose. 3 cities settled for cottage potential (culture), 1 for excess food (2 fish and 1 grassland/pig = 7 specialists) and great person production, and 1 for stone (and general missionary production). I was prepared to build a 6th city around 500 AD, but an AI city flipped.
I had no gold at the start, though I did have a riverside plains/wine to produce a pre-cottage tech boost.
In the end, I produced 2 great engineers and 14 great artists (including the free music GA).
Based on my relatively low religion and wonder production, I think there is still room for lots of further optimization. I also placed The Hermitage very badly (I put it in my top culture city, instead of my usual practice of putting it in my 2nd best culture city). That city ended with 165,000 culture, which is a huge inefficiency. That cost me 6 or 7 turns.
1216 AD. I was all excited to get this early finish, but now I see walkerjks just beat me :-(
I wanted to try something different than everyone else, so I played
Qin
Lakes map
against Hattie, Cyrus, Asoka, Frederick
...yes, 4 opponents. I normally do 5 but tried 4 this time. I don't have any trouble keeping the peace, so I like to have more people to trade with. One drawback is that they are all so cramped for space that they don't tech very fast, so I have to give them techs so they will eventually discover something I want.
I was able to found 3 religions Confucian, Christian, Taoism, and Hindu spread to me later.
I was able to get 14 Great People. 12 Artists. (even without the Philosophical trait -- which may be overrated.) My best GP city could only manage 4 specialists...not much food around.
I put 11 of the great artists in one city! The other one was added as a super specialist early in the game to one of my culture cities. This way I could build zero cathedrals in this city and 4 in each of the two culture generator cities.
The two big culture cities were over 900 culture by the end. They both even finished the same year...1216. One city had 150,001 points.
I only played those 4 cities. My capitol had marble, no stone, and could not even trade for it. The stone was only about 10-12 tiles away from my capitol, but I could not settle way over there early on and expect to keep my tech up.
One mistake was I forgot to get Printing Press. I shoulda been able to trade Nationalism for it. I never considered getting banking.
I think if I had a better tech start and more food, this strategy could do even better. I didn't get Liberalism until around 500AD. I've heard some people stop researching before 200 AD. Are you getting Printing press before 200 AD too? I must be doing something different if that is true. My path through the tree seems very optimized. I've tried a few different ones. I usually use the Oracle to get Theology. Then either:
A. go Paper -> Edu -> Liberalism and can usually trade for Philosophy, Drama, music, etc.
B. this game I went Code of Laws, Philosophy, first, for the religions and the Caste System and then Paper, etc. I didn't get the free Music artist obviously.
I wanted to try something different than everyone else, so I played
Qin
Lakes map
against Hattie, Cyrus, Asoka, Frederick
...yes, 4 opponents. I normally do 5 but tried 4 this time. I don't have any trouble keeping the peace, so I like to have more people to trade with. One drawback is that they are all so cramped for space that they don't tech very fast, so I have to give them techs so they will eventually discover something I want.
I was able to found 3 religions Confucian, Christian, Taoism, and Hindu spread to me later.
I was able to get 14 Great People. 12 Artists. (even without the Philosophical trait -- which may be overrated.) My best GP city could only manage 4 specialists...not much food around.
I put 11 of the great artists in one city! The other one was added as a super specialist early in the game to one of my culture cities. This way I could build zero cathedrals in this city and 4 in each of the two culture generator cities.
The two big culture cities were over 900 culture by the end. They both even finished the same year...1216. One city had 150,001 points.
I only played those 4 cities. My capitol had marble, no stone, and could not even trade for it. The stone was only about 10-12 tiles away from my capitol, but I could not settle way over there early on and expect to keep my tech up.
One mistake was I forgot to get Printing Press. I shoulda been able to trade Nationalism for it. I never considered getting banking.
I think if I had a better tech start and more food, this strategy could do even better. I didn't get Liberalism until around 500AD. I've heard some people stop researching before 200 AD. Are you getting Printing press before 200 AD too? I must be doing something different if that is true. My path through the tree seems very optimized. I've tried a few different ones. I usually use the Oracle to get Theology. Then either:
A. go Paper -> Edu -> Liberalism and can usually trade for Philosophy, Drama, music, etc.
B. this game I went Code of Laws, Philosophy, first, for the religions and the Caste System and then Paper, etc. I didn't get the free Music artist obviously.
The AI is slow getting printing press, so normally, I have to research that one myself.mdbill said:
Banking really depends on how much buying you will have to do (and how many of the pre-reqs you can trade for - you can often get guilds and then banking in trade. Rushing 3 banks (in your 3 commerce/culture cities) can often give you a net savings in the number of turns you have to raise cash for rush buying. I really didn't consider banks to be a part of my strategy until last week, so I it's new to me as well.
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