Genghis Khan starting with a Scout doesn't make sense or am I missing something.

[dragonpunch]

I was wondering what the reasoning is behind letting a military civ start with a scout. Is it because Mongolia starts on a lot of rough terrain and somehow a scout would be more useful than a warrior? OR is it because Mongolia AI is performing so well that it needs to be weakened so it is not so aggressive?

It doesn't make sense. Please explain.

 

[wobuffet]

The Mongolian UA gives +1 movement to Vanguard and Mounted units.

 

[dragonpunch]

The Mongolian UA gives +1 movement to Vanguard and Mounted units.

I didn't think it would be so important to replace a warrior. I think it would be much better if free General Khan unit started with a scout/warrior, similar to china because Khan is a Monglian UU and would complement scouting as it has 4 movement which enables it to move like a scout even on rough terrain, i.e. 2 movement on rough terrain except when crossing a river.

Mongolia is a conquerer civ, so it makes perfect sense to have it start with a free general. Maybe give Khan +2 vision like the Chinese general. Having other conquerer civs start with a +2 vision free great general makes sense too as they will be in war right from the start.

EDIT: I edited my copy of the mod so that the conquerer civs start with a +2 vision great general. This makes sense as per the poll of least competitive civs which has conquerer civs poorly ranked and changes in vem 150.12 would definitely benefit these civs.

 

[Seek]

We reached the same conclusion you did: All civs have a sight bonus on the higher levels in VEM.

 

[dragonpunch]

We reached the same conclusion you did: All civs have a sight bonus on the higher levels in VEM.

That's great, but having Mongols start with a scout but without a general feels a bit lacking.

 

[Txurce]

That's great, but having Mongols start with a scout but without a general feels a bit lacking.

You may be forgetting that, as a militaristic civ, they also start loaded for bear. Given that, I would trade an opening warrior for a scout.

 

[dragonpunch]

You may be forgetting that, as a militaristic civ, they also start loaded for bear. Given that, I would trade an opening warrior for a scout.

You are probably right. I don't understand what you mean by "start loaded for bear."

 

[rfxmills]

Starting with a GG would be pretty OP, there is a free one available early in Honor.

 

[albie_123]

I wouldn't mind the scout in addition to the warrior, to be honest.

 

[Txurce]

You are probably right. I don't understand what you mean by "start loaded for bear."

My understanding is that all militaristic civs start with an extra unit - an archer, I think - in addition to whatever extra units the AI gets on Emperor. "Loaded for bear" is a traditional American expression meaning your rifle has the sort of ammunition required to kill a large animal (like a bear).

 

[rfxmills]

I think there are a few different conversations going on here.

As humans we normally start with a warrior, and in a few exceptions the warrior gets replaced with a worker, scout or an early UU. Most people prefer to get a scout as soon as possible so you can see more of the world to make better decisions about where to settle, meet city-states first to get more gold and get ancient ruins.

The AI starts with more units as you go up difficulty levels and also gets a sight bonus to it's units. I didn't know that conqueror civs get an extra unit on top of that.

 

[Thalassicus]

A 3 scout with ignore terrain is a lot faster than a warrior, especially across rough terrain. Scouts are nearly as strong as warriors in combat with an adjacent unit for the Camaraderie bonus. Scouts also have the defense bonus. An early scout helps Genghis find a citystate to attack sooner. It's also a lot of fun.

All AIs get +2 sight range on all difficulty levels, to help them with warfare.

 

[Txurce]

A 3 scout with ignore terrain is a lot faster than a warrior, especially across rough terrain. Scouts are nearly as strong as warriors in combat with an adjacent unit for the Camaraderie bonus. Scouts also have the defense bonus. An early scout helps Genghis find a citystate to attack sooner. It's also a lot of fun.

I agree with all this. While I haven't tried Mongolia yet, I have been playing with China and using the GG to scout (recklessly). He's slow, but it's hard to beat the pleasure of finishing on a hill and having an flat landscape open up before you.

 

[dragonpunch]

Starting with a GG would be pretty OP, there is a free one available early in Honor.

China starts with a GG too. Persia starts with an Immortal. My thinking was Mongolia can start with GG UU Khan especially if it starts with a scout. Mongolia and China are quite similar as they are in the same region geographically as well.

I don't think militaristic civs start with an extra archer because I always encounter only one archer.

BTW, scout and GG Khan is a very good combination because of the enhanced medic promotion of Khan. I was able to scout and kill many barbarians and gain a lot of culture with the Honor opener without my scout dying as it heals 7HP per turn with Khan.

HOWEVER, recon II promotion has been changed recently from "can traverse mountains" to "retreat from fighting 80% of time." This is a good change for a scout, but NOT if a GG is in the same tile as a scout because if the scout retreats the GG is captured immediately.

EDIT:

A 3 scout with ignore terrain is a lot faster than a warrior, especially across rough terrain. Scouts are nearly as strong as warriors in combat with an adjacent unit for the Camaraderie bonus. Scouts also have the defense bonus. An early scout helps Genghis find a citystate to attack sooner. It's also a lot of fun.

All AIs get +2 sight range on all difficulty levels, to help them with warfare.

Makes a lot of sense now especially from the AI point of view with the changes in 150.12.

I agree with all this. While I haven't tried Mongolia yet, I have been playing with China and using the GG to scout (recklessly). He's slow, but it's hard to beat the pleasure of finishing on a hill and having an flat landscape open up before you.

If you enjoy scouting with a Chinese GG, then try scouting with a Khan, it's fun because it has 4 movement points which enables it to move like a scout, i.e. 2 movement points on rough terrain except while crossing a river.

 

[Thalassicus]

Adding a free Khan would be a buff, while the warrior->scout change is intended as a sidegrade... for human players. (It's a straightup buff for AIs since they start with more defensive units.)

I don't think militaristic civs start with an extra archer because I always encounter only one archer.

It depends on the difficulty level and game speed.

 

[albie_123]

Starting with a Khan would be very fun for flavour, both gameplay and historical. I suspect it will aid the Mongol AI in their early wars, as well.

I'm yet to play a game with the new aggressive AI starting war on a CS, but if they manage to actually attack them instead of waiting for the Firaxis CS block to finish, the Khan will be a very interesting buff. (You can blame Arma2 - or more specifically, the DayZ mod - for my lack of a test )

 

[ipsen]

i tend to only play deity marathon games, pretty sure depending on the ai it gets around 10 units. game i played today (v151.12) elizabeth started with 2 workers, 2 work boats, 3 L3 triremes, 2 L2 archers and 2 L2 warriors.

 

[Thalassicus]

The number of starting units depends on a number of factors. Details are at the bottom of the AI Bonuses post.