Geography is destiny!

[Dragon2]

My first two attempts at Monarch level, I was stuck on a small continent (large island). I settled into third place behind the two civs that were able to conquer large continents, and I could not move ahead. I launched successful invasions, but while I was at war someone else (usually my useless ally) built up an unassailable tech lead.

In my third attempt, I am the Iroquois on a large continent with the Americans and Aztecs. Thanks to the mounted rider (best special unit I've tried), the Aztecs are gone and the Americans will soon follow. I got a great leader to build the Forbidden Palace, I have corruption under control, and I have a lead which I expect to maintain. This is the sort of winning position that I could not overcome in my previous games.

Basically it looks as though taking over another good-sized continent is very difficult without a strong technology lead(I've never seen the AI do it). My conjecture is that at Monarch or harder difficulty, you should give up if you find no one to conquer on your initial continent. At Regent level such games are winnable.

 

[knowltok]

One word: Rivers.

I find that they make all the difference. With them you are set. Without, you have an uphill battle.

I agree with your thoughts on starting location, but I'm going to try my first few games starting by myself to see if it can be overcome. I am on monarch now, and expect to graduate a level in the next game or two.

 

[Malys Faisent]

I think it depends on your playstyle Dragon2. If you are trying to win through domination, then certainly you want to be able to wipe out a few civs early on, but if you are going for a cultural or spaceship victory its much better to have land to expand into without having to waste time on a war. On a small island you could go for a diplomatic victory or try to get a city to 20K culture and win that way.

I like the fact that there are some alternative victory conditions to SS or domination, it makes it possible to attempt a win in any map condition.

I will agree that the strategy to get that win can be dictated or at least influenced by your starting geography.

Knowltok rivers are nice, but I'd rather have cattle!

 

[knowltok]

I won't argue the utility of cattle. Wheat on a flood plain is nice too. The reason I like rivers is because usually two or more cities can benefit from a river. Plus you get to size 12 much sooner without having to build an aquaduct. I am playing a game right now where 70% of my cities have direct access to fresh water, and it is great. Especially as the French who get double benefit from larger ciities.

 

[Dragon2]

When I tried for a spaceship or cultural victory on an island I just couldn't get the tech lead that I needed. With only a small number of big cites, it was a catastrophe whenever the AI beat me by one turn to the last availbale Wonder and I lost hundreds of shields. I think that with the right starting position it could be done (rivers especially, but also key resources), but the OCC-style tricks that I used in Civ 2 just don't work in Civ 3.

I'd be interested in seeing a saved game where someone has won at Monarch or higher as the sole inhabitant of a large island. Maybe someone could post such a map as a Game of the Month and we could all try.

 

[Marlos]

I agree 100% that no rivers and a small continent mean certain doom. You almost feel like "what's the point? I can't win this!"

In my first Civ3 game on Regent level, I had this dinky continent that I shared with the English, and no rivers! My cities wouldn't grow for anything? What's the point of the productivity bonuses in a monarchy when you cannot irrigate in the first place!

Geography IS everything! But isn't that true of our world, too?

 

[Sam_Catchem]

OK..Here is what I have noticed with small isalnds and so forth. It is an uphill battle..but you can do it...even without rivers (man that hurts.)

You have to set your economy in motion with marketplaces etc. You set your tax rate to 0-10%. Go and buy as much tech and so forth from others. Eventually, you can get Democracy and starting developing the tech faster than them. Because, you have the infrastructure (Universities, Libraries, Marketplaces, etc.) and roads and so forth to be able to set tech research to max. I have found these games amazingly difficult...but I managed to win one on Regent(Diplo-Victory). Hasn't happened to me on Monarch..so maybe it is next to impossible there.

What I have found to be impossible is if you start on an island and cannot reach any of the other civs unless you have the Lighthouse and you do not get it. THose games you start from so far behind it is no fun.