Getting a bit mad against Sumeria

[myclan]

Recently I played as England with Immortal/Continent/Small setting (Standard map just too hard for my PC). Got a normal start with a lot of Jungle/Hill nearby. Started with a slinger(get Eureka of Archery) and used my warrior to explored around. Because of the terrain around my warrior couldn't run fast but found out that Sumeria is (one of) my neighbour and the space betwwen us allowed 1~2 cities. I reserached animal husbandry→Archery, upgraded my slinger to archer to defeat the barbarian nearby and the build a settler for 2nd city. Then researched Mining and built a worker to get Inspiration of Craftmanship. After that with about 2 warrior+3~4 archer his war cart came. Though it was impossibe for him to take my cities it was also difficult for me to destory his war cart because the terrain blocked my archers. And again it was difficult for me to take his cities, just didn't have enough point to shot and not producing enough damage to his cities. So I wante to know what should I do with such a terrain and a neighbour with strong early UU.

 

[Victoria]

what should I do with such a terrain and a neighbour with strong early UU

Well you know it's Gilga and if he is in the open then archer will cream his carts but he is not.
If there is another civ nearby then befriending him is also a great option, especially if you want to farward settle.
But in this case (I play England and have Gilga close often) its warriors and scouts, plain and simple.
Get the scouts out for iron asap while you build warriors. Get the warriors between you and him. Hopefully the rough terrain has forest/jungle and hills combines somewhere so you can sit warriors on hills and let him attack you until you are ready to attack him.
His carts just do not get the great advantage against you and with military tradition for support it can square things up. The scout make good flanking/support later as well as fortified on a hill defending against a chariot is not as bad as you think as they get +12 and do not turn down the opportunity to attack a scout easily.
Getting swords early will swing the tide and with a ram he is dead.
If iron is non existent the friends is more tempting ... or masses of warriors.
The odd archer on a hill can also be incredibly useful in such terrain and getting him to attack you in your home ground means you heal faster than he can kill you... the old attack me so I can then attack you trick.

 

[NegativeZero]

I think you played the situation quite well.

Since the cities where hard to take, pillaging everything then come back later with swords/horses/rams may work out. Civs with early UUs can get quite a defensive boost to their cities (E.G. Gandhi w/Varu) and it may not be worth the protracted siege.

Diplomacy may be also worth a shot. It may not prevent the inevitable war, but it could buy you turns to prepare.
I'd just go for sending a delegation and gifting some gold/resource for favorable modifiers. If you have a trader you could send it their way for additional points and a road for your army to travel faster on.

 

[Victoria]

gifting some gold/resource for favorable modifiers

WRT gifting. The max you can get is +10 degrading 1 point per turn. It seems roughly 10 gold per diplomacy point, depending on when I will attack him 100 gold and selling him the lux may be better than gifting the lux.

 

[Archon_Wing]

The only way to defeat such an early attack is the same as dealing with horse barbs, basically have a slinger in a capital while you run in a circle around your capital (it's okay to get pillaged, if you got craftsman boost). The tactic changes to focus firing his units as they come and collecting peace treaty money, while moving towards his cities during peace for a surprise attack (buy a ram too)

War Carts are broken design though, and I fault no one for restarting next to Sumeria and to a lesser degree Aztec.

 

[Forster]

Starting next door to Sumeria or the Aztecs is always going to be painful.

 

[Victoria]

Starting next door to Sumeria or the Aztecs is always going to be painful.

I find Trajan/Cleo combo worse because the both do not like you early while Gilga Monty do.

 

[liv]

Mining is usually the first thing I research. I would have build by a hill and if I get a builder of a hut I can mine. I carefully manipulate the squares the first city uses so that I can the most out of food and production. I often try to attack Gil before he attacks me. That is not always possible though.

 

[Archon_Wing]

I find Trajan/Cleo combo worse because the both do not like you early while Gilga Monty do.

True, but you can always kill them if they don't like you more easily and being denounced early sucks but it's not that awful.

They're better long term allies, and I'd appreciate that much more than those that will eventually turn on you for whatever stupid reason they may have. I'm always willing to war in the BCs, less so later on.

 

[Morningcalm]

Well, in some games, Sumeria is willing to be friends with you even if mathematically they have no reason to! In this game (Huge Island Plates), Gilgamesh was willing to declare friendship with me and ally with me even though there was a huge warmonger penalty against me.

So...as long as he's not your neighbor, he can be a decent ally.

 

[Archon_Wing]

If you declare friendship, they won't be able to hate you until it expires. He will probably insta denounce you once the alliance ends

 

[Arent11]

War Carts are broken design though, and I fault no one for restarting next to Sumeria and to a lesser degree Aztec.

As a Sumeria player I would really prefer War Carts being nerfed a little & other abilities made stronger. It would be ok, if you could counter them with spearmen, for example, or if they would just have the normal strength of chariots. On the other side, the pillaging sharing is a bit useless, it would be a much better incentive to become allies with Gilgamesh if you could get enhanced research agreements.

 

[Morningcalm]

If you declare friendship, they won't be able to hate you until it expires. He will probably insta denounce you once the alliance ends

Tested, and yes, he did--but it was weird that at least originally, even with the warmonger penalties already active, he was willing to declare friendship. There must have been some bug or other--unless this is how it's meant to work; in which case, weird. Notably, if you immediately request friendship again after it expires, he agrees, and likes you again for ages despite the massive warmonger penalty. Not exactly the most intuitive system. Seems a declaration of friendship puts the massive hundreds of negative warmonger points "on hold" somehow. But then the question is how there was enough of a positive to agree to the declaration of friendship in the first place. Makes no mathematical sense at all.

 

[UWHabs]

As a Sumeria player I would really prefer War Carts being nerfed a little & other abilities made stronger. It would be ok, if you could counter them with spearmen, for example, or if they would just have the normal strength of chariots. On the other side, the pillaging sharing is a bit useless, it would be a much better incentive to become allies with Gilgamesh if you could get enhanced research agreements.

It's unfair that war carts are stronger, have no counter, cheaper, have no maintenance, have an extra move, and are available earlier, than their "replacement" (although they don't actually replace heavy chariots, so they have the negative that if a city-state gives you a quest for building a war chariot, they won't actually count towards that quest).

I think I've seen it as a poll on these boards, but feels like they should have limited it to only, say, 3 of those 6 bonuses to make them "fair". So, stronger, cheaper, and an extra move would make sense if they simply replaced the heavy chariot. Or have them as cheaper, no maintenance, and available earlier, but don't give them the strength or anti-cav bonuses. Having all of them together just seems way too strong, especially if you compare it to a lot of the other "unique units" that don't actually replace others, like the Samurai or Berserker, which are both virtually useless due to their places in the trees.

 

[Archon_Wing]

As a Sumeria player I would really prefer War Carts being nerfed a little & other abilities made stronger. It would be ok, if you could counter them with spearmen, for example, or if they would just have the normal strength of chariots. On the other side, the pillaging sharing is a bit useless, it would be a much better incentive to become allies with Gilgamesh if you could get enhanced research agreements.

The restriction for war on behalf of an ally sounds too restructive. Imo it should apply to cs suzerain and friends. That would also be kinda strong but at least it would give incentive for diplomacy

 

[myclan]

If you declare friendship, they won't be able to hate you until it expires. He will probably insta denounce you once the alliance ends

But actually I had a game that made friend with Sumeria but because of the agenda of different goverment (I didn't have political philosophy) he betrayed me when we were still friends

 

[Victoria]

he betrayed me when we were still friends

Friends just means he has some friendly feelings to you and means nothing apart from if he is about +12 or higher you have a good chance of declaring a friendship. It is getting to a declared friendship which is great because not only can he not attack you for 30 turns but Gilga also gets another +12 happiness feeling toward you and also will start hating people who attack you.

The problem is it doe snot say anywhere how long your friendship has left so I make a note of when we declare and 2 turns before it ends I get ready for any eventuality including the possibility of a bribe to keep friendship if needed. A joint war is often enough or a push to allies.

 

[Uberfrog]

It's unfair that war carts are stronger, have no counter, cheaper, have no maintenance, have an extra move, and are available earlier, than their "replacement" (although they don't actually replace heavy chariots, so they have the negative that if a city-state gives you a quest for building a war chariot, they won't actually count towards that quest).

I think I've seen it as a poll on these boards, but feels like they should have limited it to only, say, 3 of those 6 bonuses to make them "fair". So, stronger, cheaper, and an extra move would make sense if they simply replaced the heavy chariot. Or have them as cheaper, no maintenance, and available earlier, but don't give them the strength or anti-cav bonuses. Having all of them together just seems way too strong, especially if you compare it to a lot of the other "unique units" that don't actually replace others, like the Samurai or Berserker, which are both virtually useless due to their places in the trees.

Yeah, with the War Cart it really feels like the devs got carried away piling on the bonuses. It simply is overpowered, and I'm amazed they haven't nerfed it after more than a year.

Just last night I started an Immortal game and found Gilgamesh as my nearest neighbour (actually first time I've actually encountered him in all my games!). He very quickly decided diplomatic niceties were unnecessary (quite rightly, given his advantage) and sent the War Carts around Turn 40 or so. Despite focussing military production I still was no match. Probably should've built more Warriors than Slingers (or gotten Archery faster), but I just couldn't keep up with his production that early on. Ah well, after Rome fell I started again and revenged myself on poor Tomyris.

 

[myclan]

Friends just means he has some friendly feelings to you and means nothing apart from if he is about +12 or higher you have a good chance of declaring a friendship. It is getting to a declared friendship which is great because not only can he not attack you for 30 turns but Gilga also gets another +12 happiness feeling toward you and also will start hating people who attack you.

The problem is it doe snot say anywhere how long your friendship has left so I make a note of when we declare and 2 turns before it ends I get ready for any eventuality including the possibility of a bribe to keep friendship if needed. A joint war is often enough or a push to allies.

Yes, what I meant is declared frienship, and I was too confident about it and didn't notice it would end in 30 turns and he just declared war on me. It was really a hard time if falling behind with when your neighbour hidden agenda is Ideologue.

Yeah, with the War Cart it really feels like the devs got carried away piling on the bonuses. It simply is overpowered, and I'm amazed they haven't nerfed it after more than a year.

Just last night I started an Immortal game and found Gilgamesh as my nearest neighbour (actually first time I've actually encountered him in all my games!). He very quickly decided diplomatic niceties were unnecessary (quite rightly, given his advantage) and sent the War Carts around Turn 40 or so. Despite focussing military production I still was no match. Probably should've built more Warriors than Slingers (or gotten Archery faster), but I just couldn't keep up with his production that early on. Ah well, after Rome fell I started again and revenged myself on poor Tomyris.

I think in immortal/deity we have to play a catch up game. Sumeria just come before we can catch up with. Rome is also terrbile if he know beelining Ironworking. The only army we may get fast is Archer and sometimes Chariot. Thus I don't fear Aztec too much for Archer is OK to deal with them.

 

[Archon_Wing]

Tested, and yes, he did--but it was weird that at least originally, even with the warmonger penalties already active, he was willing to declare friendship. There must have been some bug or other--unless this is how it's meant to work; in which case, weird. Notably, if you immediately request friendship again after it expires, he agrees, and likes you again for ages despite the massive warmonger penalty. Not exactly the most intuitive system. Seems a declaration of friendship puts the massive hundreds of negative warmonger points "on hold" somehow. But then the question is how there was enough of a positive to agree to the declaration of friendship in the first place. Makes no mathematical sense at all.

There is a delay yes. It's also why you can have tons of greens and they still don't want to be friends with you for a while. I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing though.

But actually I had a game that made friend with Sumeria but because of the agenda of different goverment (I didn't have political philosophy) he betrayed me when we were still friends

And that's why I never keep friendship with him. He makes friends with anyone at the start too, so that restricts your diplomatic choices as well if you should come into conflict with one of them.