Getting Better at Emperor Level

[incangold]

Hi Fanatics!

I recently moved up to Emperor Level and having a tough time finding a long term strategy to get to the 1st or 2nd best Civ on a Small size map.

This is what I think I'm doing right: I am playing the INCANS , I enjoy an aggressive war footing and am keen to catching an opponent with her pants down. I find great success in terrorizing my nearest neighbor in the first 20-30 turns, being sure not to pluck all her cities as to leave a buffer between the next civ. I run amuck in my neighbors territory, usually razing far-reaching cities and re-installing governors in cities close to my capital. I don't bother building workers or settlers. Once this first campaign is over I have some gold from pillaging, looting, and allot of captured workers. I maintain only 3-4 cites as my quota for troops is at full capacity, my Research stays at about 50-60% even with spamming hamlet/towns & extra gold tiles. After this initial expansion and peaceful building I have a good size empire of 4-5 cities and many resources to trade & trading techs at a good rate. But at this level the other civs are still doing better.

My trouble is: By the late medieval era I'm only one or two spots above last place , and my opponents have a giant empire that is far reaching. By this point I have moved my capital so it's in position to boost my influence in the area I plan to take over next. But any wars at this point are so costly without much benefit to me, and by claiming one or two cities of the top dog- it barely effects them. How can I do real damage to my opponents and keep on moving up the scale?

Any thoughts out there CivFantics? Thank you, I appreciate the feedback.

 

[kochman]

Emperor is where I am playing mostly these days. In my peak I was able to win about 50% of immortal games, but no more.

I guess we would have to get pretty specific to give you more help, but the most important things I can say are...
*Worker>Worker>Settler as first builds, build many cities as fast as you can
*Tech line... Mining> BW, Roads> Pottery> Writing> Alphabet> Currency (to support the REXing)
*Capital... build Library ASAP, and then work 2 scientists, pop GS before 1000BC, and immediately found an Academy
*General build pattern... granary> forge> courthouse> library

 

[Sian]

don't play a one-trick pony ...

learn to play other ways than Incan Quacha Zerg
learn to crash your economy (down to 0-10% research) and resurface

 

[Higher Game]

*Worker>Worker>Settler as first builds, build many cities as fast as you can

Why 2 workers? Warriors after the first one work much better.

*Tech line... Mining> BW, Roads> Pottery> Writing> Alphabet> Currency (to support the REXing)

Animal Husbandry > Writing is frequently better than pottery. Pottery loses a lot of appeal without financial, charismatic, or expansive. Writing looks much better with philosophical or creative. It's situational.

*Capital... build Library ASAP, and then work 2 scientists, pop GS before 1000BC, and immediately found an Academy

I have done well to join a GS to the capital first with philosophical guys. Math bulbs look good for guys who start with mysticism or have marble, so you can oracle calendar, construction, or currency. Lots of forests make math attractive, too. Very early calendar is particularly nice if that's your only luxury option, which happens commonly. A capital academy really just gets important with bureaucracy.

*General build pattern... granary> forge> courthouse> library

Monument first isn't unusual if it opens up strong tiles. Even library first can work well, just a couple math chops and some turns working. It's often even more overall culture because of the 1000 year bonus, especially if you're the Arabs.

 

[incangold]

Wow thanks Fanatics. I'll try those tech tree paths and general city build patterns and see how it goes. So far my builds and tecg paths have been haphazard, now i will focus more specific.
thanks alot!

 

[kochman]

Why 2 workers? Warriors after the first one work much better.

Not really. There is a breakdown of what will get you you're 2nd city fastest, and 9 times out of 10, it's WWS

Animal Husbandry > Writing is frequently better than pottery. Pottery loses a lot of appeal without financial, charismatic, or expansive. Writing looks much better with philosophical or creative. It's situational.

Animal Husbandry is only good if you have a resource for it, which you may or may not. Pottery is always good, and unlocks the building of granaries, perhaps the most important building of the game, and especially important early... and cottages, something which you want to get started on early in those flood plains and grassland river tiles (especially if FIN).

I have done well to join a GS to the capital first with philosophical guys. Math bulbs look good for guys who start with mysticism or have marble, so you can oracle calendar, construction, or currency. Lots of forests make math attractive, too. Very early calendar is particularly nice if that's your only luxury option, which happens commonly. A capital academy really just gets important with bureaucracy.

Bulbing a Great Scientist that early is the wrong answer, period.
Beaker wise it is the worst move to make with a GS, better even to just settle in place (until about 1300AD if I recall correctly).
The Academy gives you +50% science, for the rest of the game, in the city that has +8 commerce right off the bat. You are saying that only helps in Burea? Hahaha... Wrong.

Monument first isn't unusual if it opens up strong tiles. Even library first can work well, just a couple math chops and some turns working. It's often even more overall culture because of the 1000 year bonus, especially if you're the Arabs.

Some go monument first, I tend to almost never build monuments though, unless CHR... I haven't seen compelling arguments either way. I say, if you already have stone, and you have even 1 first in your initial cultural boundary of the city, skip the momument and go straight to the library.

 

[King Pluto]

I agree that there are few scenarios in which bulbing with the first GS is the best option, but an Academy is NOT the clear-cut winner over settling the first GS. In a Buro-type capital with a high slider it may be, but if you rex to block a lot of land and you're running your slider at around 10% to 30% for a while during recovery, the base beakers of a settled GS may often beat the Academy-boosted beakers and speed your recovery towards Alphabet, Currency or CoL.

 

[kochman]

I agree that there are few scenarios in which bulbing with the first GS is the best option, but an Academy is NOT the clear-cut winner over settling the first GS. In a Buro-type capital with a high slider it may be, but if you rex to block a lot of land and you're running your slider at around 10% to 30% for a while during recovery, the base beakers of a settled GS may often beat the Academy-boosted beakers and speed your recovery towards Alphabet, Currency or CoL.

Yes, it is, if you are playing with a strategy that takes science as a priority... or better put, if you want to win with anything but culture. For a small number of turns a GS may be better, but over the long haul it is a total blow out in favor of the Academy.
Also, you should be getting more than one GS, so you settle subsequent GSs.

Do the math on this.
I have already seen it done in an article here, don't remember what it was called.

 

[Riflin'Joe]

Doesn't building a settler before your first warrior just say "eat me"?

 

[kochman]

Doesn't building a settler before your first warrior just say "eat me"?

You start with a warrior. Keep him somewhat around to light the way for your settler... your 2nd city should not be too far from your capital, or the barbs will end up dividing and conquering anyhow.

 

[Clam Spammer]

This is what I think I'm doing right: I am playing the INCANS , I enjoy an aggressive war footing and am keen to catching an opponent with her pants down. I find great success in terrorizing my nearest neighbor in the first 20-30 turns, being sure not to pluck all her cities as to leave a buffer between the next civ.

Don't do this. Unless there's only one AI civ on your continent, this will just open the door for another AI to settle the land that your neighbour would have settled otherwise. This leads to a monster AI that will run away in power and tech thanks to the AI's bonuses. Better to keep all the AIs on an equal footing so you can abuse tech trading.

Yes, it is, if you are playing with a strategy that takes science as a priority... or better put, if you want to win with anything but culture. For a small number of turns a GS may be better, but over the long haul it is a total blow out in favor of the Academy.
Also, you should be getting more than one GS, so you settle subsequent GSs.

But in that "small number of tuns", you can farm another GS, with a little forethought. If you start running two scientists in two cities ASAP, and you haven't produced any other GPPs (eg. from early wonders), the second GS comes just 17 turns after the first (8 tuns if PHI).

 

[fathertuck]

My trouble is: By the late medieval era I'm only one or two spots above last place , and my opponents have a giant empire that is far reaching. By this point I have moved my capital so it's in position to boost my influence in the area I plan to take over next. But any wars at this point are so costly without much benefit to me, and by claiming one or two cities of the top dog- it barely effects them. How can I do real damage to my opponents and keep on moving up the scale?

I wouldn't care too much about where you stand ranked at this point of the game. If you manage to take out two of your opponents early on without going broke and you've discovered Alphabet you're on the safe side. Stop warring and focus on your empire management. Go for the LIB race and don't fight your next war until cannons/riflemen.

 

[redmosquito]

General build pattern... granary> forge> courthouse> library

Lets ignore the library/monument issue for a second.
Dont you think that courthouse>granary>forge is often better than granary> forge> courthouse>

 

[Vaidd]

Lets ignore the library/monument issue for a second.
Dont you think that courthouse>granary>forge is often better than granary> forge> courthouse>

Until later in the game (at which point you're not founding too many cities), courthouses save you only a couple of per turn. Building a granary first lets you increase your population quicker, which (if your workers have improved enough tiles) lets you earn multiple or each turn. Go to the city screen and see what that city is paying in maintenance. If it's still small, your return on investment will probably be greater with other buildings.

BTW, I'm not saying courthouses are worthless, but they rarely a good first build in new cities. (Not to mention that you don't need a forge in every city, either.)

To the OP, I think Clam Spammer probably has some good advice. Don't raze cities unless you'll resettle them right away (like a stupid AI one-off-the-coast city). The other AIs are annoyingly quick to settle vacant land, so you're really just giving them more cities and therefore more power. If you have vassalage, take capitulation. If not, capture enough cities to cripple their empire and leave the rest. You can always sweep through later when your economy can support a larger empire.

 

[kochman]

Yes, well said Vaidd.
Granary is key because it is a force multiplier.

In specific situations, specifics builds are called for... the pattern above is just the "average" or the template if you will.

 

[yanner39]

Not really. There is a breakdown of what will get you you're 2nd city fastest, and 9 times out of 10, it's WWS

Just wondering...Your saying that the capital will stay at size 1 until you get out 2 workers and your first settler? Interesting. I've never seen that before. Not growing doesn't set you back a little or do you catch up faster with a quick 2nd city?

 

[kochman]

No, because you are chopping... you should have BW by the middle of production of the 2nd worker, and then both should be chopping to get the settler out ASAP.

There is a thread somewhere in this forum that broke down the math, and tried all sorts of techniques. The fastest was this technique.

 

[Ghpstage]

There is a thread somewhere in this forum that broke down the math, and tried all sorts of techniques. The fastest was this technique.

IIRC it only analysed the first settler time, that or another post on the forum suggests that while WWS may be faster for the first, its slower than W->Grow-> Settler for every settler after the first.

 

[ABCDPuppies]

Bulbing a Great Scientist that early is the wrong answer, period.

No, it's not. If you're doing a construction-based rush (cats/eles or cats/swords), a Math bulb can shave 15+ turns off your attack date. It will also boost your chops, increasing the size of the force you attack with by a significant amount. Combined, this can make all the difference between a successful and an unsuccessful rush (or one that takes so long it leaves you way behind in tech, with a crippled economy.)

How much this costs you in terms of beakers vs. an early academy depends on a number of things, notably how long it will be until your next GS (which in turn depends on whether you are Philosophical), as well as whether you would even be running the slider/scientists in the interim. But in many cases grabbing a nice chunk of land will provide a much greater benefit, in terms of beakers and otherwise, than an early academy.

As for this business about chop rushing worker-worker settler. If I'm not mistaken, you're referencing a War Academy article from a couple years ago. Bear in mind that many such articles, including that one, are considered outdated and not best play at this point. There's a reason you will generally not see higher-level players (like TMIT and AbsoluteZero in their LP's) do such chop rushes: on Immortal/Deity it leaves you very vulnerable to barbs (which come earlier and in greater numbers on those levels), and as Ghpstage notes, it tends to slow down your subsequent development.

Obviously I'm not saying you should never chop workers or settlers -- far from it. But just that there are others approaches than worker-worker-settler, and you can't necessarily assume something someone posted several years ago is still considered correct (in fact, I seem to recall there was considerable disagreement in the thread about that article even at the time.)

 

[kochman]

To me, it clearly is. 15 turns off math? Versus the rest of the game with +50% science in the city that will be your science capital...

As for w>w>s, I use it, it works well for me, but it isn't used 100% of the time. I definitely do it if I start with mining.