Getting Rational deals from the AI

[Exsanguination]

Is it possible?

If I ask the AI for Magnetism (for example), they will demand 1300g + 80 gpt + WM + gems (for example, real offer). If I try to sell them Physics, mmm... maybe a world map (they have ~200g, several luxuries, and they can give out gpt just as well as I can). And they'll sell Invention to each other for things like a world map or 2g with pleasure.

Get my point?

What tips do you have for getting reasonable deals from AI, when you haven't broken any deals; haven't ever declared war (or been at war); are in a democracy, with a smaller army (but still powerful enough), and have a 94% approval rating? Oh yea, and the most powerful all-round civ in the game (by a barely comfortable margin).



(PS - I'm not kidding, I need advice here!)

 

[Hades]

I remember someone mentioned putting a peace treaty on the table as part of the bargin would increase to chance of getting a better deal. I have never tried that but it make sense. I usually just send out several armies and 60 MA as my negotiation team. It works every time!

 

[Yzman]

Yeah but putting a peace treaty on the table means that you better make some deal other wise you got problems, or they do.

 

[Knight-Dragon]

Usually when the tech in question is common (most civs have it), they'll tend to lower their asking price a bit. Also if you have good relations with them, it'll help. Some particular civs are also more conduicive to exchanges and diplomacy - maybe you're trying to deal with one of the more intransigient ones.

As for the luxuries exchanges, depends on the relative sizes betw your two empires. If your is bigger, they'll want a gold per turn before sealing the deal. I find paying the gold is sometimes worth it since I am getting better usage out of the deal as my empire is bigger.

 

[Jodien]

If you have a tech that nobody has, and that tech is a wonder-giver then the civs would die to buy it from you.

In my latest Babylon (Regent) game, I went straight to research Physics to get Newton's Univ, while most of the other civs were hanging around Free Artistry or so.
When I got Physics, the AI civs raced to make deals with me.
One of them offered 2 techs, world map, 45gpt; and the other offered incense, horses, 33gpt.

I didnt sell Physics until it was 1 turn to complete Newton's Univ
When I sold it, I collected all the gold, tech and luxuries in the world while AI totally switched to build Newton's (fools).

 

[Exsanguination]

I play on Monarch level, btw. I have the second most territory (by like one tile), and all the civs have the tech. I know about tech devaluation.

My b**** isn't that the AI asks for such high prices, its that they don't give you such profitable deals. If they offered even 1000g + 56 gpt (off the top of my head) for a tech I 'd be happy. Unless I have a 1000+ unit army and am a encomic powerhouse they dismiss me.

"Don't ask of others what you wouldn't do yourself" (wasn't it Eleanor Roosevelt who said that?)

 

[Evincar]

Exsanguination, this is partially because of the tech trading. At monarch level it's an insane 140, which means that the AI "sees" only 100 gold where you put 140. Anyway, I don't think that explains it all.

Another explanation is that, maybe, the AI is very close to researching that tech. After all, you would give almost nothing for a tech that is 2 turns away.

Thirdly, and posibly the most important. I think that once you become the most powerful civ, the AI hates trading with you (it hates even more keeping it's treaties ). So that would explain why I can't just be the great pacific civ...I just have to terminate them all in order to make a better world

 

[KDan]

Yes, Evincar is correct. Terminating the other civs often solves the "bad deal" problem.

Daniel

 

[Sullla]

No one here has grasped what the problem is with selling techs: sometimes the AI civs do not have the money to afford paying full price. Let's say you just discovered Writing through use of a 40-turn min science strategy and now you are the only one with the tech. It should be worth a ton of money, right?

Well quite frequently the AI civs have no money on hand when in Despotism as they run 100% science, so thus they have nothing to trade you in return for the tech. The tech may be worth 1000g, but if no one else has more than 50g, they can't pay you more than that. This is a problem whenever the AI civs are in non-representative governments, as they frequently are running at 100% science and thus cannot pay you even 1gpt. It's not that you have suffered a reputation hit, it's just that the AI civs have no money with which to pay you.

 

[Exsanguination]

Originally posted by Sullla
No one here has grasped what the problem is with selling techs: sometimes the AI civs do not have the money to afford paying full price. Let's say you just discovered Writing through use of a 40-turn min science strategy and now you are the only one with the tech. It should be worth a ton of money, right?

Well quite frequently the AI civs have no money on hand when in Despotism as they run 100% science, so thus they have nothing to trade you in return for the tech. The tech may be worth 1000g, but if no one else has more than 50g, they can't pay you more than that. This is a problem whenever the AI civs are in non-representative governments, as they frequently are running at 100% science and thus cannot pay you even 1gpt. It's not that you have suffered a reputation hit, it's just that the AI civs have no money with which to pay you.

And I agree with you wholly! BUT - what irks me is that the AI will turn around and sell a tech to its buddy for a WM or 5g! But for me, hell no, gotta be 1000x gold +50x gpt (where x is the amount he sold it to his buddy). If they demand so much from me, they should do the same to their AI friends.

And I also don't understand how the AI runs 100% sci (which they obviously do), while having rampant unhappiness and a SURPLUS (if not minute) treasury! What kind of Republic are they in?

Aye...

 

[Sullla]

Originally posted by Exsanguination
BUT - what irks me is that the AI will turn around and sell a tech to its buddy for a WM or 5g! But for me, hell no, gotta be 1000x gold +50x gpt (where x is the amount he sold it to his buddy). If they demand so much from me, they should do the same to their AI friends.

And I also don't understand how the AI runs 100% sci (which they obviously do), while having rampant unhappiness and a SURPLUS (if not minute) treasury! What kind of Republic are they in?

The trading between AI civs is affected by the AI-to-AI trading rate that is set in the editor. Even with this though, they will not trade each other techs for ridiculously low prices. In 1.29f games, you will see some of the civs pull ahead of the others in tech, not like in earlier versions of the game where the AI civs stayed bunched together forever. I'm convinced they do not sell each other techs unless the civ can afford to purchase it - at a somewhat reduced rate, true, but not for a token price.

How do they run 100% science? Perhaps not easily, but they do it. The AI civs control happiness through luxury deals - they almost always trade one another all of the luxuries they have. And if luxuries aren't enough to control unhappiness, the AI unwisely makes entertainers in cities. They never use the luxury slider at all. Generally what will happen starting in the middle of the game is that the leading AI civs will start selling techs to other ones. This allows the leading civs to get further ahead (running 100% science and using gpt payments to meet the bills) while dropping others further behind (have to drop down on science). This causes some civs to run 100% science while dropping others out of the tech race.

Of course, don't forget that on levels above Regent the AI gets lots of free unit support, enough so that on Deity they can have 70-80 units running around in a democracy and not be paying upkeep for them at all. But then again, that's just one of the things to make the game a bit more difficult.

 

[Qitai]

The AI's don't usually run 100% science. Spy a city to check. On a huge map and if you are behind in size, you can sell a tech at 200gold + 200gpt. I have done it. As Sulla mention, the key is whether they can afford it, not just whether it is worth that much. And if you are already draining alot of gpt off them, how much more can they afford. I usually get all the AIs to pay me over 1000gpt in total in the industrial age

 

[Exsanguination]

this must be just a bad game, because I doubt you're all wrong. As Qitai said, it is possible to get great deals from to AI - I myself have reeled in >500gpt off one tech!

Its also the fact that I have a perfect reputation and near perfect approval rating, yet I'm being treated so harshly that makes me mad. :aaargh:

And Sullla, I know the AI makes cheap tech deals because take this case (from the game we speak of):

I discovered the Germans, Indians, and Russians off in nowhere before my homeland "buddies" did (Persia, Egypt, Greece, Rome). The three new civs were behind in tech (I was researching Physics; they didn't have Chemistry/Banking/Invention). Xerxes was my tech partner, he and I always traded techs.

Well I traded contacts to every civ, draining every one of their treasuries (except Egypt - the most insignificant civ in the game). The next turn, Germany and Russia were both caught up in tech and Persia and Greece both had little extra. The only things to trade?

Germany: wines, world map (now devalued as I sold everyone his the previous turn)

Russia: world map

Any suggestions?

 

[Qitai]

Attached is an uncompleted diety game I play a few weeks back. You will see that I am getting 753 gold per turn from other civs and this is only a standard map. Also, I have eliminated 2 civ which means less trade from them. They are all still polite to me and 1-2 civ is actually gracious to me. Also, you will see the civ has different tech level. And If I remember right, you can sell one of the tech to either greek or persian and one of them will pay 200++gpt.

 

[Exsanguination]

Qitai - I guess I should restate my original question. Why won't the AI trade fairly with me if I have a more than perfect record? Yes I know it is possible to get awesome deals, and in most games this is the case. But as you can see, in this game, where I have perfect reputation, the AI is treating me like a dog.

 

[Qitai]

As mention earlier, how much they will pay is dependent on how much they can afford. As to AI trading amoung themselves, they do get cheap deals sometimes, but not all the times.

If you want, post your save and what is the problem. I try to figure out why for you.