Getting tradition opener before liberty

[civzombie]

For persia especially:

What about taking the tradition opening, switching to liberty, then going back to legalism as soon as drama and poetry are created to get the free ampitheature, assigning an artist specialist, and trying to pop the first great person (great artist) manually before switching back and finishing liberty for the free great person?

 

[civzombie]

Also, we have a bunch of math on how long the tradition opener slows down completing liberty, but how about how much does taking the tradition opener and also taking legalism for free ampitheatures at some point slow down completing liberty?

EDIT - and the math could be done with no artist specialists vs. using one.

 

[tommynt]

I personally go for the Tradition opener because I always want the 15% wonder production policy (don't remember the name of it). I build quite a few wonders, so that probably saves me 30-40 turns of production per game

this math seems very flaved, even when doing nothing else as building wonders in cap (unrealistic) your games must take like 400 turns and this isnt taking into account that u loose other policies which might speed up wonder production aswell (like+1 hammer). With wonders in multiple cities this changes a bit but well lot changes then.

If u spend 150 turns on building wonders (realistic number at standard speed) u save yourself like 20 turns. Untill cap has 8+ production (about size 5) the 1 hammer from liberty is even stronger.

Not saying here that the policy is worthless but just promoting some math.

Lib and 1 hammer will help same for early wonders and will help expanding much more with free settler and worker as the tradition policiys

 

[Miravlix]

Whatever I take Tradtion+Liberty+Comerce+Order or take Liberty+Honor+Comerce+Order.

I'm pretty sure the cost of that last order policy is the same.

Sure I can most of the time finish Liberty faster and get some GP a few turns before another combination of policies, but what does it matter when I'm on turn 1300 (or whatever the equal turn number is on other speeds)

Your failing to specify WHEN it's a good thing to do something.

"If your aiming for an early power religion, then go liberty only and use the finisher on a greater prophet."

Say things like that and most of the argument goes out of the thread, it's because your failing to say under what condition the fast liberty is a good idea that the rest of us can't believe what your saying, because your clearly wrong from how we play.

My latest games only victory condition is time, I could take liberty as third policy tree without ruining my game.

And one last thing, Finishing Liberty fast for a greater prophet when your 5 turn short of faith generating one, is STUPID.

 

[Ulthwithian]

Miravlix: The original question was whether you should take Tradition (and/or Legalism) to get Liberty done faster. The answer is 'No in almost every circumstance'.

If, however, you know that you want 'Tradition, Liberty, Commerce, Rationalism, and Order' in your game, and you don't care the order in which you take your policies, then yes, Tradition/Legalism is probably the fastest opening.

Most people on this thread have assumed (and that assumption has been more or less explicit) that the original argument was whether Tradition Opener + Liberty + Commerce + Rationalism + Order was faster (to finish Liberty) than just Liberty + Commerce + Rationalism + Order. And, as stated above, that is a rather simple question to answer.

civzombie: It would be very interesting to check on Persia. This is something best done with simulation, as the number of variables otherwise gets rather large. That is, unless, you want to ignore Happiness-based Golden Ages?

Re: Amphitheater-based Legalism, the answer is probably still 'no', in terms of finishing Liberty faster by not taking Tradition. Let's say you plan on going Tradition -> Liberty -> +1 Prod -> Settler (settle this and make/buy Monument before) -> (research Drama, probably from GL) -> Legalism -> Worker -> GA -> Trade Route.

This would give you 2 Amphitheaters (possibly, but not likely, with 2 Great Artist slots being worked), and 2 Monuments. This is 3+3+2+2+3 (tradition) + 2 (Liberty) = 15 cpt. Let's add one for GL for 16. We may have 6 more for 22. Now, is this better than otherwise? Well, if you would not have taken Tradition otherwise, that's 2 more policies that you have to 'pay for' with the increased cpt, and it's probably not worth it. This also assumes you burn the GL on Drama and not Philosophy, which delays your NC.

This approach would probably be best for (IIRC) the Songhai, as they _could_ get Philosophy, and get their Mosques rather than Amphitheaters.

 

[sizesixteens]

I have to agree with the majority here and advocate a policy of finishing the policies you start. However, I will say that finishing both Tradition and Liberty is an extremely effective way to build tall and wide empires. In some circumstances it's better to look back at the policies you passed up instead of always picking from the bottom row.

 

[Ex.plode]

I take it for the border growth, the +3 culture is just gravy. I tend to grab the second policy in tradition to get 4 ampitheatres or something similar.


Tradition -> Liberty (finish liberty) then start working towards finishing tradition

 

[Muskie]

I think this may be best. I also like "Religious Settlements" for maximum border expansion. The move of the free Settler makes Liberty slightly less good in G&K.

 

[SMA333M]

I do that too in my games... then I get both Tradition and Liberty (full trees) so it's ok for me