God bless the South Fulton Fire Department

[aelf]

Eh, as far as this thread is concerned you seem to have a serious problem. Either you don't understand the free rider problem or you are, for some reason, incapable of engaging in a proper discussion with other posters (by neither comprehending what they are saying nor expressing yourself effectively). Maybe both. You don't seem interested in addressing the questions I raised in my previous post either.

Oh, well.

 

[Old Hippy]

Eh, as far as this thread is concerned you seem to have a serious problem. Either you don't understand the free rider problem or you are, for some reason, incapable of engaging in a proper discussion with other posters (by neither comprehending what they are saying nor expressing yourself effectively). Maybe both. You don't seem interested in addressing the questions I raised in my previous post either.

Oh, well.

you don't seem interested in houses burning down... that seems to me a MORE serious problem than people riding the bus without paying (and that happens all the time)

you also don't seem interested in what the fire chiefs want and say on the matter, the free loader problem has been going on since 1989, when the county set up its commission, subscriptions are seen as a short term solution because of the political climate, the fire chiefs of several cities see a county wide tax as an answer
so i have agreed with you there all along BUT ther is a short term problem of firemen watching houses burn down.
i don't put much weight to the freerider problem... because it will not exist at allonce a county wide tax is introduced, the prefered solution of the fire chiefs, and as they say with more than 70% of the county paying at present why would they not vote to lower their payment... it dosn't matter if people don't want to pay ... 70% is a majority... so its not a freeloader problem... its political infighting at the county level, sane people would find a stop gap solution to stop firemen watching houses burn down

What i find most baffling is why someone keeps arguing my alternate solutions... when they themselves say they have no idea what I proposed
thats up their with firemen watching houses burn down

 

[aelf]

you don't seem interested in houses burning down... that seems to me a MORE serious problem than people riding the bus without paying (and that happens all the time)

you also don't seem interested in what the fire chiefs want and say on the matter, the free loader problem has been going on since 1989, when the county set up its commission, subscriptions are seen as a short term solution because of the political climate, the fire chiefs of several cities see a county wide tax as an answer
so i have agreed with you there all along BUT ther is a short term problem of firemen watching houses burn down.
i don't put much weight to the freerider problem... because it will not exist at allonce a county wide tax is introduced, the prefered solution of the fire chiefs, and as they say with more than 70% of the county paying at present why would they not vote to lower their payment... it dosn't matter if people don't want to pay ... 70% is a majority... so its not a freeloader problem... its political infighting at the county level, sane people would find a stop gap solution to stop firemen watching houses burn down

What i find most baffling is why someone keeps arguing my alternate solutions... when they themselves say they have no idea what I proposed
thats up their with firemen watching houses burn down

I don't see why I should sympathise with people who refuse to go along with the current arrangement of paying a small subscription fee and don't get fire protection as a result. If they don't want to pay this small fee, would they want to pay the bill after the fire has been put out? And what happens if they refuse?

I also think there are good reasons why the fire department is funded by means other than a pay-as-you-go system where they only charge for services after putting out fires. So it's not just that the fire department doesn't want to put out fires for people who don't pay it - this isn't about being petty. It's also about not eliminating disincentives for people to behave in ways that would damage the fire department's readiness (which includes paying for services only after the fact).

 

[Old Hippy]

I don't see why I should sympathise with people who refuse to go along with the current arrangement of paying a small subscription fee and don't get fire protection as a result. If they don't want to pay this small fee, would they want to pay the bill after the fire has been put out? And what happens if they refuse?

I also think there are good reasons why the fire department is funded by means other than a pay-as-you-go system where they only charge for services after putting out fires. So it's not just that the fire department doesn't want to put out fires for people who don't pay it - this isn't about being petty. It's also about not eliminating disincentives for people to behave in ways that would damage the fire department's readiness (which includes paying for services only after the fact).

i don't think you have to sympathise with the poor guy who's house burnt down
i also don't think you should fund the fire services with a pay-as-you-go service either, I would never endorse that, especially as i volunteer with the state emergency service (SES)

But i do think we should sympathise with the fire chiefs who are not happy with letting anyones house burn down... "its really affecting some firefighters..." was the union city fire chiefs remarke..." we are not happy with the present situation at all..." another, they also sent a truck to attend the fire,

I go back to how our ambulance service WORKS, you pay a subscription, you get free coverage here and ANYWHERE in the Continent, the state government provides funds in return for service targets being met, and in return a deal that poor people who have a Federal health care card are also covered, private medical insurance also does a deal covering their members... its a stressed but effective system using volunteers and paid specialist staff/drivers/paramedics there are seven such services here that do deals to help each others members, so no jurisdiction problems... the Royal Flying Doctor service also covers very remote outstations and towns... so no matter where you are, your covered (barring major stuff ups)

but if you fall outside these areas maybe an English back packer (or a real stubborn free loader) you still get covered, BUT THEY WILL BILL YOU after wards for the service
its a system that works
they could just leave the English backpacker, and this is were we differ in our views,
I actually do think that would be petty, you think he should be left as its the current economic fad to avoid disincentives so that other people will behave in certain ways...

 

[aelf]

Uh, the difference is if you're not a citizen and you get a hospital bill, you weren't trying to avoid paying what you're supposed to pay for the provision of healthcare to begin with. There is no harmful behaviour that needs to be discouraged. And it's not like citizens can opt to be non-citizens in order to avoid paying into the system, so the free rider problem is not as pronounced in your example.

 

[Old Hippy]

Uh, the difference is if you're not a citizen and you get a hospital bill, you weren't trying to avoid paying what you're supposed to pay for the provision of healthcare to begin with. There is no harmful behaviour that needs to be discouraged. And it's not like citizens can opt to be non-citizens in order to avoid paying into the system, so the free rider problem is not as pronounced in your example.

OK lets make it more pronounced... the English back packer and the Aussie free loader are riding a tandem push bike, when a Irish priest runs over them in his truck...

Now i not talking about health care here but the ambulance service that responds and takes them to hospital...its not a life threating incident, but a check up is best just in case, now they put the English backpacker in the ambalance...but your way the ambo guy turns to the Aussie and says "hey mate, got a dollar, I'll lend ya me mobile so ya can get a Taxi"

What actually happens is that they are both taken to the Emergency of the nearest hospital... the back packer skips the country and dose not pay, the free loader receives a bill for say about $350....which he has to pay

We have ads on TV showing how a snow skiing accident could cost upwards of $5000, so get a subscription and its will not cost you anything

edit* I'm also a british subject, not a citzen yet (waiting for the country to become a republic first)
so in theroey i could just show my passport and not bother with paying the subscription, but i do and have no problem for billing people who haven't or did not think about it when they turned 18 and left their home for University study and were no longer under their parents subscription

 

[Silurian]

you don't seem interested in houses burning down... that seems to me a MORE serious problem than people riding the bus without paying (and that happens all the time)

you also don't seem interested in what the fire chiefs want and say on the matter, the free loader problem has been going on since 1989, when the county set up its commission, subscriptions are seen as a short term solution because of the political climate, the fire chiefs of several cities see a county wide tax as an answer
so i have agreed with you there all along BUT ther is a short term problem of firemen watching houses burn down.
i don't put much weight to the freerider problem... because it will not exist at allonce a county wide tax is introduced, the prefered solution of the fire chiefs, and as they say with more than 70% of the county paying at present why would they not vote to lower their payment... it dosn't matter if people don't want to pay ... 70% is a majority... so its not a freeloader problem... its political infighting at the county level, sane people would find a stop gap solution to stop firemen watching houses burn down

What i find most baffling is why someone keeps arguing my alternate solutions... when they themselves say they have no idea what I proposed
thats up their with firemen watching houses burn down

You state that this

free loader problem has been going on since 1989

You state

i don't put much weight to the freerider problem... because it will not exist at allonce a county wide tax is introduced

The people of South Fulton had been paying for the free riders from outside the city (pop 2500) who do not pay city taxes, for twenty years. How long should they carry on paying.

Even though most municipal fire departments in Obion County have benefited from AFG and CDBG grants to upgrade apparatus and equipment, each department must have operating funds to continue operations. Each individual municipality currently furnishes operating funds for their fire departments without assistance from the county or state. Federal, state and local mandates for training, apparatus, equipment and personnel are costing each fire department more money each year, and fire departments desperately need additional operating funds to stay caught up with these mandates.

My highlights http://troy.troytn.com/Obion County...tation Presented to the County Commission.pdf

 

[Old Hippy]

You state that this

You state

The people of South Fulton had been paying for the free riders from outside the city (pop 2500) who do not pay city taxes, for twenty years. How long should they carry on paying.



My highlights http://troy.troytn.com/Obion County...tation Presented to the County Commission.pdf

yes i stated alot of things, most of what i stated i got from your link, which had the plan and avalible options of the county fire deptments i trust that your link is accurate, i also stated what the fire chiefs have said over the last few days from other peoples links in their posts

your link is a county commission document with solutions to funding AND providing a good county wide fire service, after twenty years of inactivity they got around in 2011 to implementing some of it, and i would tend to go with the 8 cities fire chiefs preferred options which would 1) lower the amount payed by individuals at present 2) do away with any free loading at all 3) provide the type of service that YOUR link tells me the county wants

why ask me how long they should put up with free loaders, it is not a concern to me. You should ask the County Commissioners how long before they get around to implementing the solution from their own paper that the 8 or so city fire chiefs have said they prefer and lower the payment that subscribers pay at present

How could you expect me to know how long this fiasco will continue... my guess is till County officials become so embarrassed they get of their fat behinds and do something...
it took them 20 years to get the thing in motion and firemen watch county houses burn... give them all a pay rise for providing the service that the county wants

 

[Silurian]

yes i stated alot of things, most of what i stated i got from your link, which had the plan and avalible options of the county fire deptments i trust that your link is accurate, i also stated what the fire chiefs have said over the last few days from other peoples links in their posts

your link is a county commission document with solutions to funding AND providing a good county wide fire service, after twenty years of inactivity they got around in 2011 to implementing some of it, and i would tend to go with the 8 cities fire chiefs preferred options which would 1) lower the amount payed by individuals at present 2) do away with any free loading at all 3) provide the type of service that YOUR link tells me the county wants

why ask me how long they should put up with free loaders, it is not a concern to me. You should ask the County Commissioners how long before they get around to implementing the solution from their own paper that the 8 or so city fire chiefs have said they prefer and lower the payment that subscribers pay at present

How could you expect me to know how long this fiasco will continue... my guess is till County officials become so embarrassed they get of their fat behinds and do something...
it took them 20 years to get the thing in motion and firemen watch county houses burn... give them all a pay rise for providing the service that the county wants

Exactly you do not know how long this fiasco will carry on and neither do the tax payers of South Fulton.

You have proposed that the people of South Fulton (pop 2500) should continue to pay taxes to provide a fire service to other parts of the county for an undetermined length of time. The people of South Fulton (pop 2500) have put up with it for twenty years and I can understand why they do not want to continue paying to save others property. (They do still rescue people).

The failure of the County officials to provide a fire service or to pay others to provide a service to people outside of South Fulton is not the fault of the people of South Fulton.

 

[Old Hippy]

OK, there are free loaders, lets see who they are

Even though most municipal fire departments in Obion County have benefited from AFG and CDBG grants to upgrade apparatus and equipment, each department must have operating funds to continue operations. Each individual municipality currently furnishes operating funds for their fire departments without assistance from the county or state. Federal, state and local mandates for training, apparatus, equipment and personnel are costing each fire department more money each year, and fire departments desperately need additional operating funds to stay caught up with these mandates

this was you quote, South Fulton are struggling to maintain services let alone deal with freeloaders... its a problem ... where can we get the money from...

Because there is no operational county fire department, Obion County has missed the
opportunity to actively pursue receipt of FEMA Assistance to Firefighters Grants (AFG) and
Community Development Block Grants (CDBG), which could amount to hundreds of
thousands of dollars of funding. By taking the steps to make the county fire department
operational, Obion County could apply for these grants to provide much needed equipment
and funding for the existing fire departments and equip additional fire departments when
the need arises.
Even though most municipal fire departments in Obion County have benefited from AFG
and CDBG grants to upgrade apparatus and equipment, each department must have
operating funds to continue operations. Each individual municipality currently furnishes
operating funds for their fire departments without assistance from the county or state.
Federal, state and local mandates for training, apparatus, equipment and personnel are
costing each fire department more money each year, and fire departments desperately

same quote from your link, BUT with the proceeding paragraph
woooo... hundreds of thousands of dollars up for grabs, if ONLY they had a COUNTY WIDE SERVICE ... so after 20 years of inactivity on the issue they form one, using a method, that their own document lists as the LEAST preferred method of funding
Now they can get WADS and WADS of funding, by providing a COUNTY WIDE fire service made up of the 8 brigades of the county

so who are the free loaders ... why its the city of South Fulton grabbing money for free, ripping off the poor US tax payer (some of whom live in trailers)
.... and NOT providing a county wide service, a condition of that type of funding ... according to their Commission and YOUR link

there is always a reason politicians get off their backsides after 20 years of nothing... and there it is in 2011... the chance to free load