"good" undead race?

[SchpailsMan]

Anyone remeber Fallout ? Ok, that's not much Fantasy-like but still, those ghouls were as close as undead as you'd imagine, and they sure weren't evil. The same goes in Fallout II, and they even find their environmental (sp ?) "niche" by working in highly radiactive areas.

In fact I'm not really interested in that "good undead" idea, but I am tired of always getting the same old stereotyped "bad evil and naughty undead" along with principles like "a good undead is a dead undead... I mean... you know... when it won't move anymore... well, you get the point !"...

Having "not particularily bad" undead my be a possibility so long as you consider they somhow preserved their consciousness. But then again, I don't see a need for it in FfH.

 

[kevjm]

Traditional undead having to be controlled! Pft! Have you never watched Buffy? Or heard of Marvel Zombies?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvel_Zombies

In fact, I can't think of any fantasy creation (except perhaps Castle Wolvenstein) which has had undead with no element of self control. I've never done any Dungeons & Dragons though, way before my time and not big in my country, methinks.

 

[Hian the Frog]

Traditional undead having to be controlled! Pft! Have you never watched Buffy?

Buffy ? That's a wonderful reference Let me laugh...
Buffy....pff, ....why not Casper ?

The Frog.

 

[Silverkiss]

Vampires and Liches are exection to traditional undead that are controled... (All I say is based on D&D and other RPGs)

 

[kevjm]

Buffy ? That's a wonderful reference Let me laugh...
Buffy....pff, ....why not Casper ?

The Frog.

Hey, Buffy is just a more modern and popular take on the fantasy theme!

I guess the mindless zombies in horror films.. they don't have much in the way of intelligence. But they're never controlled either. Controlled 100% braindead undead seem to be the exception in my opinion

 

[Silverkiss]

Well, some aren´t controlled, true, but when they aren´t controlled they dont do anything, only feast on the flesh of the living for survival...

 

[kevjm]

OK, you win. Excluding vampires, when one says undead, they usually mean zombies. And zombies are the vast majority of the time portrayed as mindless feasting things.

But what if instead of being on a mindless mission of brain-eating, they were on a mindless mission to rid the world of evil?

Say some Bannor high priest cooked it up or something, but the zombies were unfortunately forced to eat him because necromancy is evil

 

[Silverkiss]

Lol !!!!!!!!

 

[BCalchet]

Looking at D&D, I can think of two examples of good-aligned undead, both members of the Lich family. Archliches - neutral or even good priests turned liches - and Baelnorn, a Lich-like but good-aligned elven undead.

(A quick search turned up the following short descriptions: )

Archlich

Spoiler :

From time to time, sages have heard rumors of liches having alignments other than evil, and even lawful good liches apparently have existed. There have even been reports of priests who, in extreme circumstances, have become liches. These reports have recently been verified, but the archlich is as rare as Roc's teeth.

(Source: AD&D Monstrous Manual)

Baelnorn

Spoiler :

Baelnorn are elves who have sought undeath to serve their families, communities, or another purpose (usually to see a wrong righted, or to achieve a certain magical discovery or deed). They are equivalent to liches, and appear as tall, impressive-looking elves with shriveled skin and glowing white eyes. Most baelnorn keep to the crypts, ruins, or mage-towers they’re guarding or working in, and are never seen except by those who intrude into such places. Baelnorn are most likely to be Lawful Good in alignment (as opposed to Evil liches).

(Source: http://www.rpgplanet.com/poolofradiance/por/monsters.asp)

 

[kevjm]

Oh and I just thought: Most zombies really fall more into the category of sci fi, so perhaps my argument does still have some credit :/

 

[Hian the Frog]

kevjm,

The problem is not that your arguments are good or not.... The problem is : Is a Good Undead civ really usefull ?
IMO, no. It's useless. We yet have a kind of undead civ: the Sidar.
But, imagine that everydody think it would fun, usefull, creative,.... to have such a civ (a good undeads one), how to built it ? What is his background ? and so on.....
I think that Kael and his guys have enough job improving what yet existed to began the built of a new civ.
I would rather prefer everyone helping the Team by giving ideas to develop the Sidar.

The Frog.

 

[QES]

I have agreed that there are "exceptions" to the rule on an individual basis. However, MOST undead are controlled. And it is this control that is evil. Liches and Vampires are ALSO controlled, but not necessarily by a sentient entity. I suggest vampires are controlled by their needs for blood, and liches by their need for imortality and power (which takes over.)

The "good" liches out there are an exception. And as such are very interesting characters. But were talking about an entire civlization of "Good" undead-wielding peoples. I'm willing to break stereotypes in the specific, but not willing to let go in the general.
-Qes

 

[dreiche2]

well, I don't think it would be necessary in FfH, but anyway, it seemed to me the point of idea was that it was something special, and I'm pretty sure you could think of some fantasy setting which explains them. Being undead could even be a curse on them (story wise... or even gameplay wise, e.g., the order might hate you even though you are good).

Also, another example of a people of undead which are at least neutral can be found in the game with the best story ever: planescape: torment.

 

[kevjm]

I have agreed that there are "exceptions" to the rule on an individual basis. However, MOST undead are controlled. And it is this control that is evil. Liches and Vampires are ALSO controlled, but not necessarily by a sentient entity. I suggest vampires are controlled by their needs for blood, and liches by their need for imortality and power (which takes over.)

The "good" liches out there are an exception. And as such are very interesting characters. But were talking about an entire civlization of "Good" undead-wielding peoples. I'm willing to break stereotypes in the specific, but not willing to let go in the general.
-Qes

You could also say that humans are controlled. Perhaps by a higher power, perhaps by instinct.

 

[QES]

You could also say that humans are controlled. Perhaps by a higher power, perhaps by instinct.

Touche'! Still, at least we would like to delude ourselves into thinking our wills are not predestined. Fundamentally I was trying to 'explain' vampirism and lichdom in terms of undeath, while simultaniously explaining that while they have personality (where as zombies and skeletons do not), that this does not exclude them from some "otherly" control. We could argue that "higher powers" for humans can only exist in cooperation with humans. Religions etc, must convince humans to "follow" instead of direct control. Humans then may BREAK the bargain. Vampires can no more break their thrist, than lich's may break the deal over their soul they signed.

Also. While Individuals might be able to defeat these concepts I've just given, and individual lich or vampire might be unique and cool. Whole societies cannot rebuff this general constant. Only in so far as the "sidar" Kael has talked about does it become "neutral". I do not see an entire society being able to be "good" on its face, without some other source (like religion) providing that "goodness".
-Qes

 

[Sureshot]

in d&d theres a lot of interesting undead, like banshees (which are kind of ghost/lich female elves), and wraiths and ghouls (ghouls seem like vampires but more decripid and gross, being diseased and eating people, not just drinking their blood). skelettons and zombies are usually just flesh re-animated by a necromancer.
usually the really scary undead are self controlled.

 

[Silverkiss]

Like the one that has 4 arms ?? Dont remenber the name... But I think he´s mindless....

 

[QES]

in d&d theres a lot of interesting undead, like banshees (which are kind of ghost/lich female elves), and wraiths and ghouls (ghouls seem like vampires but more decripid and gross, being diseased and eating people, not just drinking their blood). skelettons and zombies are usually just flesh re-animated by a necromancer.
usually the really scary undead are self controlled.

Yes. But what "good" and "undead" and "plentiful enough to be a society" race/being/creature can you think of?
-Qes

 

[Sureshot]

oh, that point i don't think i can argue too well, im just arguing that undead can be self controlled and intelligent

i remember a few instances of "good" undead though, ("good" in quotations because they were more lawful and "ends justify the means" kind of people), like the spirits in Final Fantasy X (the leadership of the world of Spira were actually dead ghosts, perpuating a cycle of death and rebirth). I have a vague impression of some other instance of "good" undead, but can't quite form the memory of it. also with banshees, they tended to be greedy or territorial, but weren't necessarily evil, and certainly not plentiful.

Edit added:
thought of another one, in ultima 8, the necromancers intern the dead into the earth, and aren't evil, in fact they are revered by the city of pagan (they perform the ceremonious rites of the dead with respect), and they used undead more as tools, much like they used earth golems.

 

[Jono]

What if a bunch of necromancers began making the undead move for a good cause? Their leader wouldn't be undead, but they would only produce undead as units. Of course, this would change their whole growth process. The citizens would either be offsprings of the necromancers, or the new undead (those necromancers who died and were instantly reanimated?), basically they would never die of hunger because of all of the working undead and even if the lands weren't sterile, they would just die and become undead citizens.