GOTM 124 spoiler

Jokemaster · Jul 29, 2011

It took me 14 turns to discover Monotheism, before the celebrations when most cities were hovering between sizes 1, 2 and 3 and when I was riot-torn: it was that that I said was ugly. After the celebrations, the techrate was 6 turns (50% science), not counting the van deliveries: my homeland city size was up to 8, the outer core was up to 7-8, and colonies were up to 5 or 7: for me, there is no question that this, and the Republic arrows/lesser corruption, helped speed it up. I discovered Democracy in 900 AD and revolted in 920 AD. After celebrating again, the tech rate was 2 turns with 60% science: a few deliveries and only 3 times did I miss a tech per turn after that when in Democracy. If I stayed in Monarchy, I think I would only have discovered Demo in 1160 AD or so... Knowing how Democracy is overpowered in Civ2 with big civs, I simply can't come up with an answer to how Monarchy would be better than Republic in this case, when all that matters is to get to Demo quick. And I did got to Demo quick enough, given the circumstances.

Ali Ardavan · Jul 29, 2011

Jokemaster said:
I simply can't come up with an answer to how Monarchy would be better than Republic in this case, when all that matters is to get to Demo quick.

In the expansion phase of the early game your typical city supports 3 units: a warrior/phalanx for defense/crowd control, a settler, and a soldier or ship. When switching to Republic from Monarchy each one of these costs a shield and the settler costs an extra food. Assuming 1food=1shield=2arrows, this equals 8 arrows. Add to that the two arrows you need to compensate for lack of crowd control through military units and you get 10 arrows. (If both the soldier and the boat are out there exploring you need an additional 2 arrows here.) For a non-celebrating Republic to be worthwhile compared to Monarchy you thus need 10 extra arrows per city. Assuming every one of your citizens works on an arrow producing tile you need a city of size 9. Since corruption is lower in Republic compared to Monarchy a size 7 city would probably be the break even point. By the time my average city size is 7, I am often ready for Democracy.

One thing ignored here is the fact that deliveries bring larger bonuses in Republic due to the extra arrows. That can be fixed to, if needed, by celebrating in Monarchy. A celebrating Monarchy produces arrows just like a Republic. In fact, for war games that I expect to be over before modern times my favorite form of government is the celebrating Monarchy.

Jokemaster · Jul 29, 2011

May I disagree with the 1food=1shield=2arrows rule? Surplus food is not important in Republic, especially in this game. You only need 1 surplus of food to celebrate after all, and you can have a surplus and still have a settler in Republic given the abundance of grassland in this game. As for shields, I think they are only that useful, useful enough to justify Monarchy over Republic, in situations that require shields soon, such as early conquest or the early game. But ''early game'' does not equal ''50 cities'' in my mind.

You say that early game cities support 3 units. However, I normally don't build many defence units below Deity (if any), and disband nearly all of them when in Republic regardless of level, especially at huts only and 3 civs, so one unit can be ruled out. I also don't build soldiers in cities, so the 2nd unit is effectively limited to some coastal cities. I opened my 740 AD save and I saw, in size 4+ cities:

2 cities supporting 0 units
26 cities supporting 1 unit
13 cities supporting 2 units
2 cities supporting 3 units

Given all that, and that larger city sizes in Republic (due to celebrations) help make up the loss of shield support, I think that Republic was the wiser choice here. Knowing my style of play, and how luxuries, the riot factor, Mikes, and HG work together, I don't think that cities would have grown and researched in Monarchy via the food box (let alone stayed restive... and I did had the Pyramids) like they would have grown in Republic via celebrations.

As for celebrating Monarchy, it's a good idea, but don't forget corruption is higher in Monarchy and luxuries can only be put at 70%, so it's more difficult to make it happen. New cities would also not celebrate: not until the mark of 2 black hats per city, something that was not going to happen soon enough.

Ali Ardavan · Jul 31, 2011

Code:

[B]Date 	Production started	Tech started  	Other notables[/B]
+1010	Caravan					Barbarians kill my chariot.
+1020							Celt -> 50g
+1030	Caravan					Polytheism, Astronomy -> Persian
+1040	Caravan		Economics		Silk to Presepolis for 618. Celt -> 50g
+1050	Caravan
+1060	Caravan		Sanitation		Celt -> 50g. University -> Persian
+1070	Caravan					Medicine, Economics -> Persian
+1080	structure
+1100	-> Sewer		Chemistry		Celt -> 50g. T0L2S8
+1110	Harbor						Zimbabwe celebrates. Celt -> 50g
+1120							Zimbabwe is size 13
+1130							Zimbabwe is size 14
+1140	Newton		Navigation		Zimbabwe is size 15
							Sanitation -> Celt -> Navigation, 50g
+1150				-> Physics		Zimbabwe is size 16. 
									Chemistry -> Persian, Celt
+1160							Zimbabwe is size 17. University -> Celt
+1170							Zimbabwe is size 18. 
									Engineering -> Celt -> 50g
+1180	Caravan		Magnetism		Zimbabwe is size 19
+1190	Stock Exchange				Zimbabwe is size 20
+1200				Atomic Theory		Zimbabwe is size 21
							Magnetism -> Persian -> Invention 
							Invention -> Celt -> 50g
+1210							Zimbabwe is size 22
+1220				Steam Engine		Zimbabwe is size 23. Celt -> 50g. T2L0S8
+1240				Railroad		Celt and Persian reach peace. No alliance
+1250	Galleon					Celt -> 50g. Steam Engine -> Persian

Status at +1250
City Size: 23 Government: Republic Gold: 310 Techs: 39 Trade routes: 3
Structures: Library, Marketplace, Aqueduct, University, Bank, Stock Exchange, Sewer, Harbor
Wonders: Colossus, Marco, Copernicus, Shakespeare, Newton
Units: 1 settler, 1 Trireme, 3 Caravans
Goals: Discover Refrigeration, Automobile, Computers. Switch to Democracy for further growth.
Celts: 10 cities, 31 techs; Hanging Gardens; allied with me
Persians: 6 cities, 38 techs; Great Library;

Code:

[B]Date 	Production started	Tech started  	Other notables[/B]
+1260	Explorer		Industrialization	Celt -> 100g. All techs -> Persian
+1270	Caravan		
+1280	Caravan		Gunpowder	
+1290	Caravan					Celt -> 50g
+1300	Caravan		
+1310	Factory		Metallurgy		All techs -> Persian. 
								Undemanded Dye to Persians for 279.
+1320							Industr., Gunpowder -> Celt -> Demo
							Revolution started.
+1330	Caravan					Democracy established. Celt -> 100g. 
+1340				Electricity		T1L0S9
+1360	Caravan		Refrigeration		
+1380	Supermarket		Explosives		All techs -> Persian. T0L0S10
+1390							Celt -> 100g. 200g from hut. 
+1400	Engineer		Feudalism		First pollution appears. Zimbabwe is size 22.
+1410							200g from hut. 
+1420	Caravan		Corporation
+1450	Darwin			Steel			100g from hut. Celt -> 100g
+1460	Freight			Refining		Undemanded Gold to Persian Arbela for 294.
				Electronics
+1470				Combustion		Zimbabwe is size 23 again.
+1480	Freight						Celt -> 100g
+1490							None horseman from hut. 
+1500	Freight			Automobile		Trireme disbanded. T3L0S7

Status at +1500
City Size: 23 Government: Democracy Gold: 1523 Techs: 53 Trade routes: 3
Structures: Library, Marketplace, Aqueduct, University, Bank, Stock Exchange, Sewer, Harbor, Factory, Supermarket
Wonders: Colossus, Marco, Copernicus, Shakespeare, Newton, Darwin
Units: 1 settler, 1 Engineer, 1 None Horseman, 1 Galleon, 1 Caravan, 2 Freights, 1 explorer
Goals: Discover Automobile and Computers.
Celts: No embassy; Hanging Gardens; allied with me
Persians: No embassy; Great Library, King Richard

Code:

[B]Date 	Production started	Tech started  	Other notables[/B]
+1505	structure					Celt -> 100g
+1515	-> Superhighways	Mass Production	
+1520	Hydro Plant					Celt -> 100g. T2L2S6
+1525				Conscription		Zimbabwe celebrates.  T0L2S8. 
									100g from hut.
+1530							Zimbabwe is size 24. All techs -> Persian
+1535	Freight			Chivalry		Zimbabwe is size 25. Celt -> 100g
+1540							Zimbabwe is size 26. Celt -> 50g
+1545	Freight			Leadership		Zimbabwe is size 27
+1550							Zimbabwe is size 28
+1555	Mass Transit		Recycling		Zimbabwe is size 29. Settler disbanded.
+1560							Zimbabwe is size 30. Celt -> 0g
+1565	Freight			Tactics
+1570							Zimbabwe is size 31. T2L0S8
+1575	Freight			Communism		Railroad -> Celt -> Communism, 0g
+1580				-> Machine Tools	
+1585	Freight			Espionage		T1L0S9
+1595	Spy			Miniaturization
+1600	structure
+1605	-> Offshore platform	Computers		100g from hut.
+1615	Research lab		Mobile Warfare	All but Computers -> Persian. Sewer sold.
+1620	Recycling center				Conscription -> Celt -> 100g
+1625				Robotics		Undemanded Spice to Celts for 782.
+1630	-> Manufacturing	Nuclear Fission	T2L0S8
+1640				Nuclear Power		
+1645	Freight						
+1650	Recycling Center	Amphibious Warfare	Persian embassy established. 
+1660				Laser			Celtic embassy established. Celt -> 50g
+1665	Freight			
+1670	Freight			Flight			Celt -> 50g
+1675	Freight
+1680	Freight			Radio			T0L0S10. Celt -> 50g
+1685	wonder					
+1690				Advanced Flight	tech bombed Persians
+1695							None Rifleman from hut
+1700				Combined Arms	Mobile Warfare -> Celt -> 100g
+1710				Rocketry		Explorer disbanded
+1715							3 barbarian cavalry from hut
							2 bribed for 123g each; third one killed
+1720				Space Flight		Metallurgy -> Celt -> 100g
+1725 							None Rifleman from hut
+1730	-> Apollo		Plastics		200g from hut.
							Celts cancel alliance when I refuse to share
+1735	SS Structural					2x100g from huts.
+1740	SS Structural		Environmentalism	
+1745	SS Structural 					3 barbarian cavalry from hut kill my cavalry
+1750	SS Structural		Superconductor	T2L0S8
+1752	SS Structural
+1754	SS Structural					Rifleman from hut disbanded 
+1756	SS Structural		Fusion Power		
+1758	SS Structural
+1760	SS Structural
+1762	SS Structural		Genetic Engineering	Advanced Flight -> Persian -> Genetic 
+1764	SS Structural		-> Future Tech 1
+1766	SS Structural
+1768	SS Structural		Future Tech 2
+1770	SS Structural
+1772	SS Structural
+1774	SS Component	Monotheism		100g from hut.
+1776	SS Component
+1778	SS Component				None musketeer from hut. 
+1780	SS Component	Future Tech 3
+1782	SS Component
+1784	SS Component				100g from hut
+1786	SS Module		Future Tech 4		T10L0S0
+1788	SS Module					Engineer disbanded
+1790	SS Module					Persians develop Space Flight. T2L0S8
							None musketeer from hut. Aqueduct sold
+1792	Marines					Persians join the space race. 
							15s3c1m space ship launched.
+1793	Aqueduct					200g from hut
+1794	Sewer			Fundamentalism	T0L2S8
+1795							Zimbabwe celebrates
+1796	Eiffel						T2L0S8. Zimbabwe is size 32.
							None Rifleman from hut. Sewer sold
+1797				Future Tech 5		Aqueduct sold. Silk to Celts for 1866.
							100g from hut. All but Plastics -> Persians
+1798				Future Tech 6		50g from hut
+1799	Cure			
+1800							Persians develop Plastics
+1802				Theology		Rifleman from hut disbanded.
+1805	Lighthouse		Future Tech 7		100g from hut
+1806	Freight						T0L10S0
+1807							Space ship arrives

Ali Ardavan · Jul 31, 2011

Ali Ardavan said:
Number of techs available from start definitely has no effect. Since I rarely play with so few players in the game, I am not sure whether it has to do with the fact that we may not have had a key civ at the beginning. If I get a chance I will test it.

I did test this. Apparently in games with fewer than 7 players (I tested 3-5) the starting tech costs 12 regardless of whether you have a key civ or not. The question that comes to my mind is whether all subsequent techs are also more expensive. Perhaps the designers put that in as a way of compensating for playing against fewer rivals.

Major Advantage · Aug 1, 2011

I finally played the last few turns and am ready to submit.
As for your earlier discussion, I tried an even earlier repubilc (not really early though), to let my home-continent-cities grow and prosper. I set up trade-routes early despite the lousy payoffs, but the trade-routes with road bonus increased arrow-output by roughly averaged 30%. Don't know if it was a good strategy. :dunno:

I also took my until 1090 to establish democracy since I wanted to get rid of unhappy boats first (via magnetism and Leo). And I just realized that there actually WAS a safe trireme-passage for colonization that I missed out during black-clicking... :wallbash:

Anyway, here is the next part of my log:

540 Ulundi builds Magellan, pop hut on 39: Crusader
560 Banking -> Engineering
580 Isand will finish Shakes next turn> Raise luxuries to let them celebrate, all other cities need market places
600 Raise taxes to rush city improvements for growth
640 Colombo(58), Genua (51) founded, dye caravan sent along with colonists
680 Engineering-> Invention
720 Hut on 39 (had some troops standing by): Advanced tribe (Vancouver), Verona (51) founded
800 Invention -> Sanitation (not ready for Demo, need Magnetism + Leo first); 1st foreign trade: Dye(d) New Hlob.>Tarsus 256g
820 Bergamo, Palermo founded, hut 50g (all 51)
840 Hamilton (39) founded
(Celts start exploring cont. 51)
880 Sanitation -> Magnetism, bribe Celt caravelle 110g (unsupported), to replace northwards exploring caravelle
900 bribe Celt Crusader 79g(u), raise lux to celebrate Isand and Zimb (and some more)
940 Pisa (51) founded
960 Magnetism -> Gunpowder, Advanced Tribe (Kopenhagen) on 34, Florenz (51) founded
980 AT(Odense) on 34
1000 Winnipeg(39) founded

Stats at 1000 AD
Population: 9.080M; Cities: 33 (7 in italy(51), 6 in canada(39), 2 in denmark(34)); Techs: 34; Government: Republic;
Gold: 4; Cost: 59; Trade routes: ?D0F;
Wonders: MPE, HG, Michelangelo, Colossus, Copernicus, Shakespeare, Magellan, (Leonardo next turn)
Units: 17 settlers, 5 boats, 8 assault units, 5 Caravan, 4 dip, 1 explorer
AI:
Celts: Republic, 11 cities, 24 techs (Researching chivalry), enthusiastic, peace; Pyramids, GW
Persians: Republic, 7 cities, 19 techs (Researching physics), enthusiastic, peace; LH, GL
Plan (PS, wanted to play on at that time): Continue colonization, get ready for democracy, develop explosives and railroad to get 1-turn-deliveries from Zulu to Persia (2 ships chain to italy, railrod through italy, 1 ship from italy to persia)

1010 Leo completed; Neapel(51) founded, hut(9): 7 Barb horses: 1 bribed(41g), 1 killed
1020 Bribe another horse
1030 Gunpowder -> Democracy
1060 Demo -> Chemnistry (go for engineers first, then railroad); Udine(51), Stockholm(9) founded
(Watch Celt Crus. pop hut>Physics)
1070 Victoria (39), Mailand(51) founded
1080 domestic offshore trades 138+66, Revolution
1090 Demo established T1S6L3
1100 Chemn->Explosives, foreign deliveries 228+364
1120 Explosives -> Steam Engine; Ravenna, Montreal founded, silk(d) Isand>Persia 1142g(!)
1130 Steam Engine-> Railroad; deliveries: 804+510
1140 Railroad -> Gravity; Aarhus, Alborg founded
1160 Gravity -> Metallurgy, huts: 100g, Crusader, Saskatoon founded
1180 Metallurgy ->Ind.->Electr.->Conscr. (with Darwin in between) T0S8L2 to speed up science to corporation
1200 Conscr.->Economics; Railroad through cont. 51 complete
1210 Econ.->Corporation, Göteborg (9) founded
1220 Couldn't get corp. now, delay deliveries, raise lux for some celebration
1230 Corp.-> Refinement; some nice deliveries, AT(Astana) north of Persia
1240 Refine->Steel(straight to Atumobile, delay refrig.), Thunder Bay, Zürich(42) founded
1250 Steel -> Combustion; Singapur(50) founded, T0S8L2 to get advance next turn

Stats at 1250 AD
Population: 17.920M; Cities: 50 (11 in italy(51), 12 in canada(39), 4 in denmark(34), 2 in Sweden (East edge of 9); Techs: 49; Government: Demo;
Gold: 3936(turn not completed yet); Cost: 139; Trade routes: ?D?F;
Wonders: MPE, HG, Michelangelo, Colossus, Copernicus, Shakespeare, Magellan, Leonardo, Newton, Darwin
Units: 32 settlers, 7 boats, 9 assault units, 11 freight, 5 dip, 1 explorer
AI:
Celts: Republic, 12 cities, 30 techs (Researching magnetism), enthusiastic, peace; Pyramids, GW
Persians: Republic, 8 cities, 26 techs (Researching magnetism), enthusiastic, peace; LH, GL, Oracle
Plan: Continue colonization and PD (or at least my try for it

)

Ali Ardavan · Aug 1, 2011

Major Advantage said:
I also took my until 1090 to establish democracy since I wanted to get rid of unhappy boats first (via magnetism and Leo).

There are three things to do to prepare for Democracy.
1. Rehoming of units such that every city can stay out of unrest after Democracy. This is crucial and should always be done.
2. Magnetism and Leo
3. Bach

Major Advantage said:
And I just realized that there actually WAS a safe trireme-passage for colonization that I missed out during black-clicking...

I played OCC and for me this was even more crucial. Somehow I got distracted and neglected to find a complete path to Persians and Celts when I first got their maps. After two commodity caravans, I started building my trireme and it was only then that it dawned on me that I may not be able to deliver them with a trireme. I did extensive black clicking at that point and was relieved to find a route.

Jokemaster · Aug 1, 2011

And I just realized that there actually WAS a safe trireme-passage for colonization that I missed out during black-clicking

Same thing happened to me, so I just went for Lighthouse. But looking back at it, I would have done the same since this passage was rather slow for continents 9 and 51. But one thing that I would have done different if I were you is to follow this rule: In doubt, build a settler. It was disturbingly easy for me to save my game after Demo, simply because I had loads of cities.

Anyways, here is my log from 500 to 1000 AD. My game is at 1400 AD and my plans have changed: I now expect a landing.

Interturn: Persians send another caravan (Salt) in Sydney, this time from Antioche. What is up with that?

520 AD: Toronto settlers. Isa hides. Ulundi silk. Isipezi II built 2 squares away from Cardiff. Pull in boat. Amatikulu II built. REVOLUTION. T0L6S4. Hut: AT (Zunuguin II) Bribe back Isa II for 26g and a dip: get my city back and a horse with it.
Interturn: Celts develop Seafaring. Finally, and just at the right time too.

540 AD: Unrest in new size 3 cities, Bapedi food. Republic established. Build a Naples settler in Naples. Trade Invention to the Celts for Seafaring (they would not accept Philosophy) T2L8S0 to start celebrations. Tech cost 1125. Looking okay so far. Build Swazi settler back in Swazi. Build Zimbabwé settler in Hlobane. Naples II built. Hut: 50g. Rush piker in Isipezi II.

560 AD: Celebration in lots of size 3 cities. Mpondo food. Build Swazi settler in Intombe.

580 AD: Zunuguin silk. Umtata food. Intombe food. Population goes over 3 million citizens. Build Umfolozi settler back in Umfolozi.

600 AD: WLTCD cancelled in Naples, unit unhappiness. Population exceeds 5 million citizens. Issos II built. Some cities stop celebrating at size 5: need some roads. Oh, and also Democracy. Corruption is a pain right now. Worker changes keeps sustaining some celebrations. Hut: Legion.

620 AD: Swazi II, Hlobane II, Zimbabwé II, Dublin, Salzbourg, Hambourg celebrate. Some cities stop celebrating due to unhappiness. Ngome food. Population exceeds 6 million citizens. Knight kills wandering barb horse from a previous hut popping. Rush harbour in Cremona. Some more cities reach their EOL for celebrations.

640 AD: Ulundi II settlers. WLTCD cancelled in some cities. Salamis settlers. Turin settlers. Cremona harbour. Isipezi settlers. Tugela food. Population exceeds 8 million citizens. Some more cities stop celebrating, homeland up to 6-7-8. Cunaxa II built. Cremona II built. `
Interturn: Celts start Leos.

660 AD: WLTCD starts in some cities, ends in some. Bergen food. Hlobane hides. Population exceeds 9 million citizens. Cannae II built. Capoue II built.

680 AD: WLTCD cancelled in many cities. T1L4S5, discoveries 6 turns. Plan is to gun for Theology: 8 vans already in place.

700 AD: Ghent settlers and disorder. Bapedi settlers, Umfolozi settlers, Mpondo settlers. WLTCD ends in almost all remaining cities. Ulundi van.

720 AD: Prague settlers, WLTCD.

740 AD: Isa II settlers, WLTCD (population reduction) Melbourne settlers... and population growth just popped a hut. Toronto settlers. Dublin settlers. Isa food. Hut: 50g. Turin II built. Rush Harbour in Issos. Gênes II built.
Interturn: Persians develop Alphabet.

760 AD: WLTCD in Zunguin II. Bapedi II settlers and disorder. Sydney barracks (outpost to Persia) Swazi wine. Intombe silk. Hlobane wine. Unload a silk van in Persia using a ship chain. Crète II built.

780 AD: WLTCD for Ibabanago. Mpondo settlers and WLTCD. WLTCD in Ulundi II. Discover Theology: start Banking. WLTCD for Toronto. Milan settlers and disorder. Hambourg settlers. WLTCD in Issos. Zim food, starts JSB. 8 food in Zim: JSB next turn. Hut: 50g. Rush harbour in Amatikulu.

800 AD: 5 cities settlers. Amatikulu harbour. Zimbabwé builds JS Bach and celebrates. T3L1S6, Scientists in 3 cities to control unrest.
Interturn: Persians almost done with KRC.

820 AD: WLTCD ends in all remaining cities. Bergen food. Cremona settlers. Tugela food. Send Hlobane van to Persia using ship chain (oh, did I forgot to mention that I was building one to the Persians, and eventually the Celts?) Hlobane wine (d) to Pasargades: 395g. Vérone II built. Rush barracks in my outpost to Celts. Various rushes, including 2 crusaders in Sydney and Turin II.
Interturn: Pasargades completes KRC.

840 AD: 3 cities settlers. Isipezi II barracks. Discover Banking: start Democracy. Hlobane food. Rush a crusader from scratch in Isipezi II. Salamis II built. Lisbonne II built.
Interturn: Celts discover Engineering. Celts: Trade Philosophy for Math. Update maps.

860 AD: 3 cities settlers. Naples temple. Bapedi food. Ulundi food. T4L1S5. Rush crusader in Turin II. Persia: They withdraw troops. Rush another crusader from scratch in Isipezi II. Hambourg II built. Hut: AT (Prague II) a bit north of Celtic-land.

880 AD: Pise dye. 1 city settlers. Umfolozi copper. Mpondo silk. Intombe silver. Isa silk. Isandhlwana hides (d) to Pasargades: 276g. Hlobane hides (d) to Pasargades: 348g. And tech box full! So long for a zero-turn revolution. Rush a crusader from scratch in Isipezi II. Rush another one in Sydney. Salzbourg II built. T6L1S3: a second celebration push is coming, and I need to get some cash beforehand. Im planning on celebrating the core to 12 and the rest to 8.

900 AD: Discover Democracy: start Iron Working. Im thinking of losing the pikemen rushing slot to go for Engineers. Else, not worth it, and the Persians already have it. Im not running a majorly trade-powered game anyway. 2 cities settlers. Prague wine. Umtata silk. Persia: They withdraw troops. Rush final crusader in Sydney, Isipezi II. 4 crusaders for Celts: 5 for Persians. Bergen II built. Venise II built. Celts: They withdraw troops.
Interturn: Persians send lots of units near Sydney: they are blocking the path to Pasargades and these units would retreat to Pasargades if summoned. Yeesh. Good think I have a 2-turn window to do this. The Celts do the same with 1 unit.

920 AD: 3 cities settlers. Swazi silk. Hlobane copper. Zimbabwé food. Oedo turn next year. Not a revolution yet... Zunguin silk (d) to Suse: 360g. Okay, NOW revolution. T0L6S4. Rush another crusader in Sydney: Anarchy allows for more shield support. Laughable, but Im not going to shove it away while Im at it. Sneak the Celts: 3 Crusaders kill 3 defenders of Cardiff. Storm Cardiff: Colossus stormed, along with it 4 citizens and 81g. Im now deadlocked on a 1500 AD conquest strategy: I probably wont have the time for anything else. Ask tribute from Persians: They give IW... and withdraw. IDIOT!!! I proceed to sneak anyway, lets hope for the best. Rep Dishonorable: I dont care. First crusader kills Archer, withdraws at 66% health. 2nd one dies to Legion. 3rd one kills Archer, badly wounded. 4th one dies to Legion. 5th one kills Warrior and escapes without a scratch, vet. 2 Legions still in it. Hopefully... Rush a crusader in Turin II. Zimbabwé starts Leos. 8 vans in Zimbabwé: Leos next turn. Milan II built. Ghent II built.
Interturn: One of my crusaders dies to a counterattack from Pasargades. Celtic chariot near Cardiff.

940 AD: 1 cities settlers. Bapedi riots. ZImbabwé finishes Leos. Choose Monarchy as gov't. Kill Celtic explorer, settler, chariot. Kill Persian warrior in Pasargades. Kill wounded Persian legion in Pasargades. Kill another wounded Persian legion in Pasargades. Storm Pasargades for GW+KRC+5 citizens+89g. Rush Temple from scratch in Pasargades, then switch to Pikemen. Revolution. Democracy established. Pise II built. Hlobane hides (d) to Carmathen: around 400g. Rush some marketplaces, harbours to prep for celebration. T3L6S1. Dublin II built.

960 AD: Start researching Gunpowder. Lots of cities celebrate. 3 cities settlers. Crusader kills defending Phalanx in Suse. Suse stormed for 42g+2 citizens. Kill Celtic horse near Cardiff. Umfolozi copper (d) to Carmathen: 316g. Rush Aqueducts in many cities. Kill Celtic Phalanx in Carmathen. Kill Celtic Archer in Carmathen. City empty, but I dont have any units with enough movement points to take it. Toronto II founded.
Interturn: Persians hail, Senate signs peace. Celtic capital moved to Carmathen... the heck? Citys empty, ya know... lots of shields down the drain.

980 AD: Discover Gunpowder, existing barracks sell for 80g. Leos upgrades all Pikemen, Legions to Musketeers. Next up: Astronomy. 4 cities harbour. 5 cities aqueducts. Population exceeds 14 million citizens. Kill Celtic settler. Storm Carmathen for 3 citizens+63g. T4L6S0. North part of the earth looks like mainly swamps and forests: now I understand why everybodys south. 7 civs would have made it a challenge for some civs to simply grow.

1000 AD: 3 cities harbours. 1 cities aqueduct. Population exceeds 17 million citizens. Intombe silver (d) to Kells: 605g. That helps. Crusader kills Celtic Archer in Kells: Kells stormed for 2 citizens+44g+Oracle.

Status at 1000 AD:
Population: 17.66M; Cities: 82; Techs: 32; Government: Democracy
Gold: 8; Cost: 39; Trade routes: 0D7F;
Wonders: Pyramids, LH, HG, Marcos, Mikes, Colossus, Oracle, GW, KRC, Leos, JSB.
Units: 47 Settlers, 6 Musketeers, 44 Triremes, 2 dips, 11 vans, 3 horseback explorers, 8 attack crusaders. Goals (1250 AD) Celebrate some more, then gun through the tech tree, trade with Celts and Persians and get Magnetism and Explosives: 2 critical techs that I lack. Afterwards, I plan on another celebration spree, some groundwork with Engineers and Sanitation. I also want to buy off the Celts and the Persians and to expand in the west of the map and on Continent 9. Tech cost 1488.

Both civs are capital-less.
Celts: 5 cities, 22 techs. 360g, Republic, war.
Persia: 5 cities, 19 techs. 348g, Republic, peace.

Catwalk · Aug 2, 2011

My entire report. I got an early break with nomads, but threw it away and let Ali land 80 years ahead of me

Spoiler :

Moderator Action: Please do not mention your score. Your score (and date if your going for the green star) should be kept secret and will be announced when all results are checked

Ali Ardavan · Aug 2, 2011

Thanks for the log. A log would be far more useful when you include status reports at standard junctions (-1000, +1, +1000, ...)

Catwalk said:
1450 Colossus, raising luxuries to celebrate since I'm wasting a bunch of arrows
Plan: Library, Temple, Aqueduct, MPE. I want early celebration to size 12, so have to delay MPE a bit.

Delaying Marco in favor of infrastructure is rarely a good idea. Marco brings you not just techs but hopefully gifts which help tremendously at this stage of the game.

Catwalk said:
950 Irrigated and roaded the two non-rivered grasslands. Going to forest the two non-shield river grassland as I'll have way more food than needed. Should have done this earlier.

Right. You should have irrigated the shielded rivered grasslands instead. You would have saved the 4 turns spent for the two roads that at this point do not contribute anything (you get the same arrows from the river for free)

Catwalk said:
850 Temple -> Great Wall (the Temple didn't let me celebrate much,)

Temples before Mysticism are hardly ever worthwhile. They get 1 citizen to content (which is worth 2 arrows) for a cost of 1 gold which at this point is worth 1 arrow. Net saving of 1 arrow for 40 shields is not worth it. In this case, of course you were trying to celebrate and thus the temple was more worthwhile but still this early when it takes you several turns to build a temple I doubt if it is worthwhile.

Catwalk said:
325 Done exploring the continent, didn't find anything. Could have saved 22 shields if I'd disbanded the warrior instead of exploring those last 5-6 tiles

How could that cost 22 shields?
Since in OCC, you do not care about city sites and are only exploring for huts you should stop when there are no more huts. You can find that out by doing Map Analysis and black clicking. Having said that, it often takes too much time to do those and I often do what you did: completely explore the continent I am on.

Catwalk said:
460 Realize with dismay that the southern pole is not recognized as land... Decide to backtrack and hope to find land elsewhere

The edge of the map, be it vertical or horizontal, is never considered land.

Catwalk said:
Plan A: Lots and lots of caravans (send off another two triremes), ignore most wonders and improvements.
Plan B: Keep prioritizing standard wonders and relevant improvements and produce enough caravans for one trireme

Delaying improvements may be worthwhile; but delaying wonders is often not wise and quite dangerous as you can miss it to a rival (which you came close to).

Catwalk said:
1260 INC finished with plenty rushing, Persians switch to LW (was worried they'd switch to ST)

You should have given priority to Shakespeare and have it done way before this time. This definitely set you back quite a few turns.

Catwalk said:
1520 Ran into trouble with celebrations at size 23, can't continue on odd population numbers because of specialists

This always happens. In Deity it happens at size 21. In fact, this is one of the two reasons for Switching to Democracy from Republic.

Catwalk said:
1665 The Laser -> Flight
...
1680 Got Chivalry from Persians
...
1700 Leadership -> Tactics ...

It is best to plan to get these techs done before Flight. I realize that Persians got Flight from building Darwin but you would have discovered it yourself in another turn or two.

Catwalk said:
1760 Space Flight! -> Plastics
...
1778 Apollo Program!
1869 Spaceship launched with 15 structurals, estimated landing year 1884

With proper planing Apollo should be built a turn or two after the discovery of Space Flight and each SS part should be built in one turn. This is not just for competition but also for survival. The rivals turn nasty when you get past Flight and are not willing to share your techs with them. The AI is programmed fairly well, compared to its other aspects, to beat you in the space race by building a faster ship or attacking your capital. In this game this was not an issue due to the large amount of empty space between us and the nearest rival which happened be perfectionist and did not expand much. In a game with rivals on your continent, every turn in late game counts since with one city you cannot put up for long against rivals with multiple cities who are ganging up against you.

Catwalk · Aug 2, 2011

Thank you for the criticism Ali

I'll try to make a better report next time, was making up my system as I went along.

Sorry for including my score!

Magic_gorter · Aug 2, 2011

Catwalk said:
Thank you for the criticism Ali I'll try to make a better report next time, was making up my system as I went along.

Sorry for including my score!

Don't worry, it's something that happens sometimes when playing the GOTM games for the first time.

We want to keep things exciting....

Major Advantage · Aug 3, 2011

Jokemaster said:
In doubt, build a settler.

That's what I did in my early game. When my home continent was fully settled, they couldn't start colonizing because LH wasn't done, so they built roads and irrigation. That caused cities to grow and led my to build Michelangelo instead of LH for happiness and colonization had to wait until Navigation (and then again until barbs were defeated).

Ali Ardavan said:
There are three things to do to prepare for Democracy.
1. Rehoming of units such that every city can stay out of unrest after Democracy. This is crucial and should always be done.
2. Magnetism and Leo
3. Bach

I guess that's the way to get rid of every unhappinness (one field-unit per city allowed by Bach) and allow celebrations everywhere. Maybe I could have switched earlier with big cities supporting <=1 field unit (boat). Wouldn't allow celebrations but a not-celebrating is obviously better than not-celebrating republic.

Jokemaster · Aug 3, 2011

Settlers are always suboptimal for irrigation work... I usually don't do much until Engineers come. Settlers' main purpose is to build more cities and the odd road for trade.

My advice is to always build more cities, and to do whatever you can to support this goal (in this map, it meant LH, Pyr, HG and Marco's). Population=score=GOTM points, and more cities=more ''bases'' to celebrate (and gain population points) off of, and more bases to launch boats, build settlers and build trade and production vans.

Since science was not good on this game, raising taxes to help build wonders like Pyr/Marco/HG/LH after the discovery of Trade (like Ali often does when building Marco's) probably would have been the better move, so you could have gotten LH and the Pyramids and helped boost your population points. At 1250 AD, I have one less tech than you, but more than twice the number of cities... and I only got Mikes in 500 AD after my rather shaky luck with huts.

mackerel · Aug 3, 2011

I decided early on to go with PD and a ridiculously large civilization again. I should have my head checked.

Status at 500 AD -
Population: 6.81M; Cities: 42; Techs: 22; Government: Republic;
Gold: 1783; Cost: 0; Trade routes: 4D3F;
Ancient Wonders: HG, Colossus, LH, Pyramids
Medieval Wonders: MPE, Mike's
Units: 28 settlers, 9 vans, 18 boats, 2 dips, 0 offensive units
Notes/Goals: One way ship chain is complete, 10 more triremes are needed to double it. Core cities have finished celebrating to size 7-8, others prevented by corruption or lack of trade routes/harbors. The core continent has a basic roadnet, enough irrigation to support a settler per city, and it is time to continue colonizing the world. There are no black hats yet. Immediate goal is to build more settlers, ships, and vans; make 1-3 trade routes per city; build Bach, and milk trade until I have to get invention or navigation.
Celts: GL; War with Persia; 12 cities, 20 tech, 476g, despotism
Persia: Oracle; War with Celts; 6 cities, 10 tech, 304g, despotism

Goals for 500 -
Resume colonization and exploration.
Irrigate until cities can support 2 settlers - one for colonizing, one for improvements.
Achieve democracy when enough outlying cities are size 3 to take advantage of it.

500 - Feudalism>Construction.
520 - 26.1 founded on Persian soil. Celts adopt Republic.
540 - Science hides Pasargadae(d) 630. Celts capture Persian capital, Indian civilization is born. Persians have two capitals, Indians have none. Construction>Theology.
560 - Intombe dye Tarsus(d) 280. 9.8 founded. Theology>University.
580 - Foreign trade 344, 280, 272. Hut>50g. Bach bought for 1592 in Zimbabwe. Arbela bought for 180x2, 55g refund+Wheel, warrior, phalanx, elephant. 9.9 founded. University>Engineering.
600 - 9.10, 51.2, 39.8 founded. FD 488. Tax rate set to 2.0.8, only one elvis needed. Engineering>Invention.
620 - FD 656, 176n. Traded University to Celts for IronWorking. 51.3, 39.9, 39.10 founded. Gave Indians republic, iron, writing, university, trade, pottery, monarchy, banking, astronomy, warcode, got maps. The civil war was hard on them, they got 2 cities and I already bought one. Persia has 3. Invention>Democracy (aiming for 700 adoption).
640 - 26.3 founded as a bridge across southern Persia, 39.11, 51.4, 51.5. FD 200.
660 - FD 92n.
680 - FD 96n. 9.11, 9.12 founded. Democracy>Chemistry.
700 - Democracy established. 39.12, 39.13, 26.4 founded. Tax 0.6.4 to celebrate outlying cities up to settler-churning size, 5 turn discoveries. DT 135d. FD144d. Persepolis bought for 258x2+42+HBR+barracks+oracle+phalanx, removes Celts from Persian continent and throws off my tech plan.. Hut>Crusader. Science buys aqueduct, the first city improvement.
720 - Umfolozi builds Leo's.
740 - FD 275. DT 118. 39.14 founded. Tax 0.8.2 for a turn or two. Indians become republic. Celts begin Copernicus. Chemistry>Seafaring (was supposed to be gunpowder, bad timing stealing HBR). 10M citizens.
760 - 9.13 founded. Persians are moving elephants, feels like a sneak attack is coming. 4 crusaders prepared to meet the charge and treasury spent down. Celts develop seafaring.. and they're icy and won't trade. 12M citizens.
780 - 51.6 founded. FD348 (salt to Carthage), 462. Seafaring>Gunpowder.
800 - 51.7 founded. FD 325, 216. Science builds Copernicus, Celts change to GW.
820 - FD 290, 292n. Celebration has completed its goal (outlying islands have several size 5-8 cities, Science is 12), back to 0.2.8 (2 turn advances) for two discoveries I want very badly. Gunpowder>Navigation.
840 - FD 260. 51.8 founded. Navigation>Explosives, Leo upgrades triremes to caravels.
860 - DD 192. FD 416. 26.5 founded. Ibabanago finished Magellan for 600. Persians take out an Indian city, they're down to 1. Persians develop Laws. Explosives>Physics.
880 - FD 304. DD 156. 9.14, 51.8 founded.
900 - 51.9, 26.6, 26.7, 9.15, 39.15 founded. Black hats starting to show up.
920 - FD 468. 9.16, 39.16, 39.17, 51.10, 51.11, 51.12 founded. Hut>Crusader. Celtic Rhymney bought for 333x2, 44+phalanx+settler plundered, Celts limited to their original homeland. Careless worker placement loses a caravel.
940 - DD 162. 52, 41.1, 9.17, 39.18, 34.1 founded. Persians adopt republic, I reject 200g offer to declare war on Celts.
960 - FD 231. 52.1, 51.13, 34.2, 41.2, 9.18, 26.8 founded. Hut>50g. Celts nearly complete GW. Physics>Magnetism.
980 - FD 738. DD 309, 261, 148, 206. 48.2, 34.3 founded. Hut>Crusader. Magnetism>Bridges.
1000 - FD 544, 172, 600. DD 178. 32, 42.2, 9.19, 9.20, 9.21 founded.

Status at 1000 AD -
Population: 15.05M; Cities: 100; Techs: 39; Government: Democracy;
Gold: 2035; Cost: 16; Trade routes: more than I care to count;
Ancient Wonders: HG, Colossus, LH, Pyramids, Oracle (captured)
Medieval Wonders: MPE, Mike's, Cope's, Magellan
Industrial Wonders: Leo's, Bach
Units: 57 engineers, 26 vans, 32 boats, 6 dips, 6 crusaders, 1 musketeer
Celts: GL; War with Persia; 11 cities, 26 tech, 758g, republic
Persia: War with Celts; 3 cities, 15 tech, 465g, monarchy; two capitals
Indians: 1 city, 23 tech, 125g, republic

Notes/Goals:
Two way ship chain to persia and celts has been in operation for a few turns, already I'm running out of cargo. Ship access to outlying islands is sporadic, not well planned at all. I have only one city over size 8, not enough money on hand for a significant number of aqueducts, but expansion is accelerating. Railroad is coming up soon, and I will need to pause expansion long enough to set up a skeleton railnet as I don't have enough engineers for both goals. However, cancelling HG is crazy talk if I can't replace it quickly, and that's 5 tech + 12 vans/2400g after rails. I can speed that up with Darwin but that's a lot more expense (8 vans/1600g).

This is a pivotal moment in the empire. This price is manageable now and will be trivial later if I play it correctly now. 2 engineers per city! Also vans.. and harbors, aqueducts.. but if I don't focus on engineers right now, I never will, and the empire will stagnate around 130 cities.

Ali Ardavan · Aug 3, 2011

mackerel said:
540 - Science hides Pasargadae(d) 630. Celts capture Persian capital, Indian civilization is born. Persians have two capitals, Indians have none.

This is two oddities in one event. I thought the breakup of a civ happens only when a weaker civ captures the capital of a stronger civ. Here Celts were stronger than Persians. Secondly, I have never seen or heard a civ having two capitals.

mackerel · Aug 3, 2011

Ali Ardavan said:
This is two oddities in one event. I thought the breakup of a civ happens only when a weaker civ captures the capital of a stronger civ. Here Celts were stronger than Persians. Secondly, I have never seen or heard a civ having two capitals.

The Persians were rather spread out when the Celts took their original capital. The three north cities became Indian, three south stayed Persia. My experience is far from authoritative on the subject, but I'd suspect the distance between the clusters of cities had something to do with the split. My only guess on the double capital bug is the game decided to give capital #2 to India, created a palace in both capitals, then decided that city would look better with a Persian flag after all. It's such an interesting error I let them live a while longer; at 1000 AD they still have both capitals, I'm unable to subvert either of them.

Inkerman · Aug 4, 2011

Wonderful game. When the Indians appeared did tech costs get more reasonable?

mackerel · Aug 4, 2011

Tech cost is one aspect of the game I haven't completely mastered. With the Celts having GL already and really nothing useful to trade, I only gave the Indians science the Celts had. I did keep some saves around that time period though, so going back I've calculated:

903 @500, 22 techs, no indians, (no key)
988 @600, 27 techs, w/ indians (11 tech)
780 @600, 27 techs, w/ indians (28 tech)

Inkerman · Aug 6, 2011

Thanks for checking that. Science cost coming down by a fifth would take a lot of turns out of my over-long landing game (I agree about getting one's head checked.) Maybe this is a clue to the "missing a trick" thought I had. Apart from the Celts splitting the Persian Empire which really does show masterful use of the AI, perhaps it would have been worth hoping for a purple re-spawn?

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