GOTM #14: Chitchat (spoiler thread)

Moonsinger

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Moderator's Caution:
Users should not access and participate in this discussion until they have at least revealed the world map and the potential for contact with all other civs in the game.

*** Discussion and camaraderie are an important part of the GOTM process but it is next to impossible for these discussions to not be labeled as spoilers until after the submission date closes for the game in question. - cracker






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Since some people think it's cheating to post in the spoiler thread while the game is still in place, I decide to create this chitchat thread instead. Please do not post any spoiler or timeline in this thread.

Personally, this game was really tough for me at the beginning because it's at Deity level. However, once I took care of my next door neighbor (you know who), it was a piece of cake to conquer the rest of the world. Believe it or not, I destroyed India and took more than half of his land while loosing just 1 cavalry.:D

Note: India was the third super power in the world; China was first, Japan was second. India had about the same land mass as China and Japan and they were all way ahead of me in techs.

So, how did I do it? Well, I tell you..it was really the proudest moment ever in my entirely history of civ3 so far. My invasion force were 3 army of knights, 4 settlers, 11 cavalries, and 1 musketeer. That was it! There were no re-enforcement of any kind since my home continent was on the opposite site of the world. The indian defenders were at least three times more than all my units (both at home and aboard) combine. To make the matter worst, their cities were well defended with riflemans and cavalries. But in the end, I destroyed them within less than 20 turns.:) Here is the details of this battle.

  • I signed a MPP with Japan (Japan was India next door neighbor).
  • I declared war, landed my invasion forces, and fired the first shot. The MPP immediately kicked in and it brought Japan into the war. When the #2 and #3 superpower in the world were killing each other, it was just so much fun for me to watch. Because of the 3 armies of knight, the Indians were so afraid to attack me, so they focus their attention on the Japanese.
  • In the mean time, I just matched along side the Japanese and the Indian troops. I let the Japanese and the Indians killing each other. Once I saw the Indian spearman defenders fortifing in the city, I knew that city was defendless and was ready to be added to my empire.:)
In the end, I took more than half over the Indian Empire and Japan took the rest. India was no more! One of my elite cavalry (my only elite unit) died by the poison arrow from an indian archer. Yeah, it had to be the poison arrow; I was hopping for a great leader, but ending with losing my only elite unit.:( Anyway, after the Indian war, Japan had become even more powerful than China.

---

During the Indian war, all my core cities were producing cannon, rifleman, and cavalry. I was so thirsty and only wine from Japan could satisfy me. Since Japan was the only wine producing country in the entire world and they weren't willing to sell their wines, they gave me no other choice.

I managed to ship about 50 cannons, a dozen riflemans, two dozen cavalries to my new world (previously known as India). Since China was the friendly next door neighbor of Japan, I decided to repeat the same trick again.

  • I signed a MPP with China (Mao just loved my furs).
  • Since some of my ships were still crossing the ocean with more troops, I couldn't declare war on Japan yet. There were a lot of cannons and horses at seas, and I didn't want them to be sunk.
  • At the next turn, Japan signed an MPP with China.:( Not only that, they also sign the Right of Passage too.:(
  • While still waiting for my last ship to dock, I saw the Chinese navy off the coast of Babylon. Could I really trust that Mao? I wondered what she was up too. I sensed a conspiracy in our MPP. Should I sign another MPP with Japan too? Maybe not, somehow, I didn't think Mao was going to attack within the next turn. So I called Mao up and brought Replaceable Parts from her for 4000+ golds. (better buy it now before she change her mind; could also buy that from Japan, but Mao give me a better deal)
  • Finally, all my ships reached their destination. I upgraded all my units to artilleries and infantries. Most Japanese units were infantries and cavalries too.:) However, I bet they didn't have a stack of artilleries standing by.:) Since Japanese sailors weren't good with direction, a couple of their ships were wandering within my border, I asked them to leave and their motherland "Japan" officially declared war on me.:( How rude! Of course, because China (the official #1 superpower in the world) signed MPP with both Japan and me, I had no choice but to wait for Japan to fire the first shot. They did and they just signed their death warrant. China was invading from the north, me and my artillery buddies were firing from the south. The Japanese Empire was no more within less than 20 turns. The Chinese took all of the Japanese islands and about a third of the land, I took the rest. A quick check with mapstat tell me that I was only 3 titles from reaching the domination limit.:)

What will be next? I don't know. I'm still thinking. I could just build one more city and win by domination or I could just go to war with China. I'm still about 4 techs behide China and I see their tanks moving along my former Japanese border. I'm sure they will develop nuke shortly. I have no fear of tanks since they are no match against my artilleries, but I'm not sure how I'm going to handle the coming nukes. It's a tough decision for me at the moment.
 
But I honestly don't think it's going to help anyone to win their games, except for the MPP tactic (which was well documented else where).

I'm sorry, guys. I should be more careful with my post from now on.:(
 
I wouldn't worry about posting in the spoiler thread Moonsinger. The people implying (or flat out saying) that reading the spoilers at any time is cheating are just uninformed about the GOTM rules. Officially, once you know the map it's ok. :)

I'm interested to see how your game turns out. Sounds you got to the domination limit before I did. I need to use artillery better (or at all). ;)
 
Great job conquering 2/3 of the world! :goodjob:

Don't listen to those people who tell you not to post spoilers in the spoiler thread, they are just jealous of your success ;). The GOTM12 thread had much bigger spoilers than GOTM14.
 
Originally posted by Aeson
I wouldn't worry about posting in the spoiler thread Moonsinger. The people implying (or flat out saying) that reading the spoilers at any time is cheating are just uninformed about the GOTM rules. Officially, once you know the map it's ok. :)

Yes, I knew the map long before I started reading their posts.:) Beside, most of them didn't even made it as far as I did, I don't know why they are worying about me stealing their ideas.;) On the other hands, I don't really mind sharing my ideas.:) I have more fun talking with people than I actually playing the game. If I don't upset anyone online, I would consider that as a greater victory than winning a silly game. A top score in civ3 won't help me much in RL, but the people skill would go a long way for my career.:)


I'm interested to see how your game turns out. Sounds you got to the domination limit before I did. I need to use artillery better (or at all). ;)

I would consider that little information as the greatest spoiler of all.:) Seriously, now that I know I might hit the domination limit before you did, I may decide to take an early win.;) But then again, I didn't tell you what year it was and you didn't tell me what year it was for you, we are back to the guessing game again.:)
 
Originally posted by DaveMcW
Don't listen to those people who tell you not to post spoilers in the spoiler thread, they are just jealous of your success ;). The GOTM12 thread had much bigger spoilers than GOTM14.

You are right about that! Now that was a real map in the GOTM12 spoiler thread. So far, no world map in GOTM14 spoiler thread.:)
 
Haven't submitted yet but went down to defeat in about 600AD.

My problem is how do you get past the Persian? He outbuilds you in cities 4-1, units, 6-1, techs 8-1 and tends to be aggressive.

How can you take him out unless you hit him with a warrior rush early on? Even then you need to be lucky since he will outproduce you.

I tend to be more of a builder than a conqueror so my natural urge is not to attack instantly. Especially since it takes you a while to figure you are stuck by yourself with him on the island. By this time it looks to be too late as he is enormous in comparison. And if he gets the iron first..............
 
Originally posted by abla
My problem is how do you get past the Persian? He outbuilds you in cities 4-1, units, 6-1, techs 8-1 and tends to be aggressive.

How can you take him out unless you hit him with a warrior rush early on? Even then you need to be lucky since he will outproduce you.

I tend to be more of a builder than a conqueror so my natural urge is not to attack instantly. Especially since it takes you a while to figure you are stuck by yourself with him on the island. By this time it looks to be too late as he is enormous in comparison. And if he gets the iron first..............

Since Perisian was very aggressive, I had to give him 43 golds to keep him happy for awhile. By 1000BC (you can check that out in my QSC save), he got 6/8 of the total land in the starting continent. Since I knew that I can't possibly outproduce him, I concentrated on producing a dozen chariots, then upgrade them to horsemans. Persia was very strong in number, but my horsemans were faster and could retrieve from battle too. As I mentioned it in the other spoiler thread, I took his iron (north of Babylon) before he got a chance to hook it up. Therefore, my horsemans had no problem killing of his archers and warriors. Since my empire was so small and most of my core cities had the barracks, my horsemans completely healed two turns later and ready for combat again. In the meantime, I used the Golden Age to produce more horseman and warriors (which I upgraded to swordmans after I hooked the iron). My second war against Persia was fought mostly by my swordmans against his spearmans, warriors, horsemans, and archers. No problem there!

PS: I just destroyed the Chinese last night. It was a bloody war between my 100 artilleries, 13 infantries, 50 cavalries against more than 30 tanks and 110 infantries. It didn't matter how many tanks I destroyed, Mao was able to replace her losts by the next turn. In the end, I had no other choice but to spend my 14000 golds in reserve to rush my tanks to the frontline. Still it was long and bloody and I had to switch from Democracy to Monarchy. Another century went by and Mao was no more.:)
 
Originally posted by Cartouche Bee
Moosinger, must have been a bad battle, if even you had to switch off democracy. :)

Yes, my civ was making around 1100 GPT at the beginning of the war. Eventually, I had to increase the luxuries to 70% (which reduced my income to less than 100 GTP) and there are still two or three unhappy citizens per city. Then I remembered that Babylon was a religious civ; so I immediately swiched to Monarchy. Guess what? Under Monarchy, all my citizens were happy and I was back to making more than 1000 GPT. I learned a good lesson on this game. The gold income isn't much different between Democracy and Monarchy. From now on, whenever I play a religious civ, I will definitely switch to Monarchy in time of war.:)
 
How did you get rid of next door neighbor (we all know who)? I have tried numerous strategies, including unceasing warrior blitz from turn one, without success. I am not going to consider entering the contest this month, as my first attempt (which is the only one that counts, obviously) led to capture of my capital by said neighbor around 1200 BC. :( Anyway, I would appreciate any help, as this is my first deity game and having "you know who" next door made it impossible (for me, that is).

Thanks in advance,
TC
 
Originally posted by TandooriChicken
How did you get rid of next door neighbor (we all know who)? I have tried numerous strategies, including unceasing warrior blitz from turn one, without success. I am not going to consider entering the contest this month, as my first attempt (which is the only one that counts, obviously) led to capture of my capital by said neighbor around 1200 BC. :( Anyway, I would appreciate any help, as this is my first deity game and having "you know who" next door made it impossible (for me, that is).

Thanks in advance,
TC

I just answered almost the exact same question in two posts ago.;) Since this is a Deity level, I knew that I couldn't possibly outproduced any AI; therefore, I mostly built chariots to upgrade to horsemans. There were two important things that I did to take out Persia:

1. I use the horsemans to disable or to take Persian's iron.

2. I set up a defensive position with a barrack and a citywall (I also tried to dig a moat, but that wasn't possible) to withstand Persia's counterattack. This position was defended by two spearmans, a half dozen warriors, and the rest of my horsemans (initially there were 4 horsemans there; but whenver new horsemans or new units that I produced, I rushed them to defend that stronghold at all costs).

#1 is easily and I'm sure most player can take iron away from Persia without any problem. However, after we take the iron away from our initial attack, can we be able to withstand the counterattack from Persia? That was exactly why I set up a stronghold as in #2 and lured the Persians into attacking it. If that stronghold failed, the game would be over for me. Two spearmans fortified within a citywall with a barracks would be completely healed every turn. They were there to defended against enemy horsemans. The rest of my horsemans and a few bowmans were there to kill off enemy archers, spearmans, and warriors. In order for the enemy archers, spearmans, or warriors to attack, they must move within 1 square of my stronghold before they can attack the next turn, that would give me one complete turn for my defenders to kill them off.:)

"To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself. Thus the good fighter is able to secure himself against defeat, but cannot make certain of defeating the enemy." Sun Tzu

By taking Sun Tzu advice, I have always setup defensive position and wait for the enemy to come to me (that was also how I used my stack of 100 artilleries against tanks later one). Once they are running out of troops to attack, now the opportunity has come for me to hit them anywhere I want without worrying about any major counterattack from them.:)
 
Originally posted by Moonsinger


From now on, whenever I play a religious civ, I will definitely switch to Monarchy in time of war.:)

When I finished up my game I was still in democracy but my war weariness was starting to become acute. :)
 
Good job despatching the Persians early, Moonsinger, I could only destroy the Persians with Calvary at a time that is wayyyy late! Securing the island is key to eventual victory. I would not think that we can do early horsemen rush at Persians because at Deity level, AI cities could really churn out high # of units. Low attack value of horsemen makes it less efficient is taking AI cities, takes me at least 5 horsies for me to be confident attacking a city guarded by 2 spearmen. How many core cities you have churning out chariots/horsemen when u start your Persian attack?
 
I imagine that some of you may consider me lamenting for my loss and trying to make up reasons for others victories when the real reason is that I’m not good enough. This might be true and I’m considering that myself.

What I don’t understand is why applying the same tactics you defeated the Persians in two wars and I didn’t. In my first war I had 17 swordsmen against Persian spears and archers. I only managed to take 1 city and losing 5 swords and lost some 5 more in the following battles. I made peace for Horseback riding and some other stuff. My second war came after 10 turns or so when I had rebuilt my armies I had some 15 swords, 15 bowmen and 15 horsies and 3 catapults. I also had a lot of workers so that I had to pay upkeep under despotism.
They had horses, spearmen and archers and as I had the good defensive positions up the mountain range they lost about 3 units for every unit they destroyed. I made peace to regroup and got some techs in the process. So these 2 wars gave me 2 cities while you (and I’m not talking only about you moonsinger) got up to half the Persian Empire.

I believe that you caught Persia in a building phase as this would explain why they fall apart easier in your cases.
 
Originally posted by Gen. Maximus
I would not think that we can do early horsemen rush at Persians because at Deity level, AI cities could really churn out high # of units. Low attack value of horsemen makes it less efficient is taking AI cities, takes me at least 5 horsies for me to be confident attacking a city guarded by 2 spearmen. How many core cities you have churning out chariots/horsemen when u start your Persian attack?

My main advantage over Persia was that I didn't attack. I simply sent a half dozen horsemans to take their iron town then run like hell back to defend my empire. Babylon Game was where I pop-rushed a citywall to withstand wave after wave of invasion from Gordium. Only 1 Persian horseman attacked the Babylon Desert; the rest of the Persian force aimed to take Babylon Game. Since Gordium was exactly 2 squares away from Babylon Game, their horsemans must rest next to Babylon Game before they can attack the next turn. Of course, the rest of their slow units must also rest within 1 squares next to Babylon Game. Therefore, my force from Babylon Game could attack without moving out of the city. The benefit was that my force would be completely healed within 2 turns (since they didn't really move out of their defensive position). When I was able to sue for peace, the Persians were running out of horsemans and archers. By that time, both Gordium and Zohak were defended by 2 spearmans each. I immediately launched everything I got and took Gordium and Zohak then sued for peace within the same turn. At the peace table, the Persians were kind enough to give me 2 of their size-1 town (east of Ur) too.:) That was my first war against Persia. The second war was much easier because I got swordmans and they got no iron.:D Anyway, here is a little map of my empire a few turns before the first war (note: this map is not really a spoiler because everyone could get this map within 20 turns into the game).
 
I see a nice dense ICS there.
That must have been one of the reasons for your early military buildup.
Out of curiosity did you disband some of the cities later in the game? How later? I believe that you built only barracks in those cities. Is it true? How many settler factories? You had granaries other than Babylon?
 
To Yndy:

I'm sorry for your lost. I think you may have waited a little too long. Since Persia or any AIs in this game could easily outbuild any of us, we must attack early and to constantly keep them busy throwing their brand new units at us for slaughtering. I rarely take defensive position in the mountain becuase they won't attack there unless they think they can take me out. On the other hand, by taking defensive position in a town (two square aways from their city), they have no choice but to attack as soon as they have something to attack me with. Therefore, their units was slowly reduced in number. And by the time, I upgraded my three dozens warriors to swordmans, their spearmans won't stand much of a chance. Btw, first I sent in my horsemans to soften off the spearman defenders HP before the swordmans went for the kill. Beside, I was lucky. I don't understand why they keep launching an attack at my Baylon Game while the rest of my empire were pretty much defendless. I think it has something to do with being the closest town within two square away from their town of Gordium.
 
Originally posted by Yndy
I see a nice dense ICS there.
That must have been one of the reasons for your early military buildup.

That was the only way I could put up a dozen cities quickly within the tiny piece of land that I got.:)

Out of curiosity did you disband some of the cities later in the game? How later? I believe that you built only barracks in those cities. Is it true? How many settler factories? You had granaries other than Babylon?

I didn't have time to build any granaries. Babylon didn't even have any granaries either. I managed to build barracks in all the core cities and continue to produce military units after that. When the town get to size three, I pump out a settler. Since there was no other land for my settler to go, I have no choice but to produce more military units and workers. After the first war, I used the Golden Age to build more warriors for the swordmans upgrade later. I disband only 1 town after I took India. The rest of my cities stayed until I took after I took China.
 
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