GOTM 17 and 16 Statistics Summary

[Moonsinger]

Well, I always play honourable too. I think the diplomatic win really come down to this:

• 
  1. Don't break any treaties or pacts
  2. Don't raze any cities (including auto raze)

I have never had problem with #1. Therefore, even when all the AIs are furious at me, they would still be willing to let me make GPT deal with them. However, I usually have a tough time with #2, especially with the auto raze. Therefore, it has been difficult to win diplomatically.

 

[Shillen]

Diplomatic is the easiest victory to get. Like Moonsinger just said just don't break deals and don't raze cities. The only time a diplomatic victory is hard is when you try to milk the game. The problem with trying for diplo in a milked game is that you're almost forced to raze cities to stay under the domination limit. You can avoid it by capturing, starving, growing, then disbanding but that's a real pain. Or if you go to war early enough you can conquer the world before 2/3 of the land is settled. But that's no easy task either. The other problem is having a civ left over that you never went to war with.

But if you're not milking then diplomatic is as easy as it comes. You don't need a lot of territory, you don't need a productive empire. All you need to do is stay within a couple techs of the AI, and know how to set up a prebuild in the late industrial age. Sign a bunch of MPP's and RoP's right before building the UN and there's very little chance you'll lose.

 

[a space oddity]

Originally posted by Shillen
But if you're not milking then diplomatic is as easy as it comes. You don't need a lot of territory, you don't need a productive empire. All you need to do is stay within a couple techs of the AI, and know how to set up a prebuild in the late industrial age. Sign a bunch of MPP's and RoP's right before building the UN and there's very little chance you'll lose.

It is easy for some to do just that, it hope it will be easy for me too one day

Originally posted by Moonsinger
Well, I always play honourable too. I think the diplomatic win really come down to this:


1. Don't break any treaties or pacts
2. Don't raze any cities (including auto raze)

I have never had problem with #1. Therefore, even when all the AIs are furious at me, they would still be willing to let me make GPT deal with them. However, I usually have a tough time with #2, especially with the auto raze. Therefore, it has been difficult to win diplomatically.

This is what I have to learn, just kill the city. I can't help myself wanting to keep the city. I guess that when I get better I'll win all my games by dominition. Indeed the tourny game 4-5 was my first conquest win!

 

[hotrod0823]

Diplo still requires you to maintain a fast pace and is an off shoot of a space shot attempt. I got a diplo win only because I dropped my original plan at a space launch (didn't want to run out of time and got bored). I purposely avoided wars of aggression with space in mind. The lack of fighting allowed me to win diplo easily. I also did not break any deals, including war alliances, gpt deals, lux, resources etc.

 

[zagnut]

It is curious that Moonsinger thinks a diplomatic victory is the hardest of all and Shillen thinks it is the easiest.

Space Oddity also makes the point that conquest and domination victories require a lot of advance planning. You have to start early and if you don't, then the chances of achieving either one are remote. That leaves you with diplomacy or space.

Maybe Moonsinger thinks diplomacy is hard because she is good at war and usually starts early.

 

[Txurce]

First, one more round of applause for Karasu.

For me, selecting a victory condition comes down to war or peace, and I tend to make the decision based on the civ and the map before the game starts. (I also only play for quickest finish, and do nothing to otherwise increase my score.) As Zagnut points out, impressive conquest and domination victories require careful planning early on, even if they swiftly turn into auto-pilot games. I never aim for conquest, because I find domination games boring enough well before the end, without tacking on even more turns to achieve conquest. When taking a peaceful approach, I almost always skip a diplomatic victory, as it's just too easy to win even a just-survived game, for all the reasons that Shillen lists. Choosing between space race and a 100k cultural victory, I lean toward strongly toward space, because it's faster. The exception to all this for me is the 20k cultural win, which is the only victory condition which seems to require careful planning throughout the game, and seems particularly hard at emperor and above.

 

[Shillen]

I have to disagree with what you just said Txurce. I think if you're going for the fastest victory of any type it requires careful planning throughout the game. I don't think a domination or a 20k culture victory require any more planning than a fast space race or something else. I think it's pretty clear if you look at the results in the past. The best players like DaveMcW can get a space race victory in 1100 AD, while other players are getting them in 1600 or 1900. 1600 isn't even bad, but it just doesn't compare to the 1100. There must be a great deal of strategy involved in order to make such drastic differences in results.

 

[a space oddity]

I agree Shillen. My point was that if you play while finding out what it takes to keep up with the AI, the game most naturally evolves to a diplo or space race win. If you know your way around a level, and the game as a whole, you are able to get to any win earlier than others. That's what makes great players. And that is what brings people like me, to compare our games to those that are able to win the space race in 1100AD. And maybe catch a glimp of what we sould be doing differently in order to win at higher levels or win quicker.

 

[DaveMcW]

Nice graphs Karasu!

Cracker did a good job of eliminating the extreme shortcuts in GOTM18, so my score will be slightly more realistic this month.

 

[hotrod0823]

DaveMcW: In the game you got really early space do you think you could've won with an even earlier Diplo win??

 

[kojimanard]

Originally posted by DaveMcW

Cracker did a good job of eliminating the extreme shortcuts in GOTM18, so my score will be slightly more realistic this month. [/B]

Thats that an intriguing comment. I think everyone would like to know what were the "extreme shortcuts"?

 

[Txurce]

I think if you're going for the fastest victory of any type it requires careful planning throughout the game. I don't think a domination or a 20k culture victory require any more planning than a fast space race or something else. I think it's pretty clear if you look at the results in the past... There must be a great deal of strategy involved in order to make such drastic differences in results.

Shillen, I was speaking relatively, just as you were when you said that a diplomatic victory is the easiest condition to achieve. Presumably, a DaveMcW type of diplomatic victory would also require careful planning and a great deal of strategy - and not be at all easy to achieve. My only goal is the fastest finish possible, and I agree that to achieve a top fast-finish score for any condition, a good deal of skill and diligence are required. In comparing the different victory conditions, I was explaining why I lean toward one sort over another - the reasons mainly having to do with when the game becomes relatively boring for me.

 

[SirPleb]

Originally posted by zagnut
It is curious that Moonsinger thinks a diplomatic victory is the hardest of all and Shillen thinks it is the easiest.

I think they're actually saying the same thing. Shillen's post explains it well and I agree. I think Diplomatic is the easiest victory if victory is the only goal. I.e. if one is not concerned with getting the highest score possible. OTOH, if one wants a very high score at the same time as victory then I think Diplomatic is the most challenging victory condition. I suspect that Moonsinger only mentioned the second case because she'd never play just for the victory

 

[hotrod0823]

OTOH, if one wants a very high score at the same time as victory then I think Diplomatic is the most challenging victory condition. I suspect that Moonsinger only mentioned the second case because she'd never play just for the victory

That is exactly why I question if a diplo win can be had as soon fission could possibly come in. If your tech rate was fast enough to get Fission and the UN in 880AD then you surely have ticked off plenty of civs to get a huge empire at the point. Aeson thinks it is possible - who am I to disagree but I would still like to know if DaveMcW think he would've won a vote in his 1100AD space shot game.