GOTM Competitive Balance

[da_Vinci]

morpheus - as someone who still is challenged by Prince, I feel (not quite done yet with the game) that GOTM25 with even the contender save was far less of an arse-whooping than I expected. I've played to past 1700 AD and hopefully will finish the game (win or lose..probably still lose) tonight.

Trynthlas ~ I am afraid you are above me. This game was so far above me that I won't be trying Emporer GOTMs again. I will try Monarch at least once, but this GOTM was so painful that I lost sleep trying to figure out my errors. I guess that is part of the problem with being a perfectionist.

By the way I posted my summary in the spoiler thread for those who would like to take part in my destruction.

For morpheus11: Don't let an initial arse-whooping discourage you too much. My initial arse-whooping is decribed here:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4589059&postcount=78

But with the help of advice I recieved based on this post, I was able to win the next GOTM (monarch game) on adventurer, and currently manage to win about half of the XOTMs.

I still have to start GOTM 25 so can't look at the spoiler yet, but if you used the autolog, you might want to give the details of you initial builds (buildings and units), initial research, where you settled, and how you improved you tiles (if not already posted).

Also, did you chop forests and use poprushing (or whipping, from slavery) to speed up your early production?

Don't answer here of course, but those are questions to answer in the spoiler to help you get the best advice.

dV

 

[SteelHorse]

Morpheus good work getting the poll going. Maybe consider posting in the Civ IV - General section of civfanatics to reach a larger audience.

ngraner42 makes a great point. people play for different reasons. if the goal is too maximize participation does it not make sense to provide something for a range of interest. this would be an argument for a tier system. for folks that want to win a lot or learn at a level they are competitive at - pick a lower tier. for folks that want to compete with the elites the upper tier.

 

[Memphus]

You know although I havn't submitted a game in a long time... here is a fresh idea for a harder game:

A more experienced play plays the first 100 turns and sets up the empire , and hands in that save to the GOTM staff. (3-4 Days after the game opens)

The GOTM staff can the "Post" this game as a follow up to any player who submitts a losing game.

Now they get a crack at a set up empire but still in a difficult game where thier epxerience base can build. Ultimately they can also read the spoiler of the "Submitter" to see what he/she did differently from them to win the game.
They are then allowed to submit this game.

I for one would volounteer to "set-up" (as I am sure 5-10 other experienced players would) the empire and would also post spoiler info once the game was finished if this idea took off.

 

[Alquest]

I have just played 4 gotm, and only 1 submission, so Monarch and above is beyond me, so far. But.. this site is called Fanatics! I expected (and am not disappointed) Fanatics. As stated above, the only way to learn the skills required for competive play. I also know that i will never reach the level some players have but this is because MM, citymapping, culture calculator etc. Point is: this is a choice, not caused by lack of knowledge. I do think the learning experience will benefit from a minor legue.
www.civwimps.com and www.civnoob.com are still available

 

[cabert]

I have just played 4 gotm, and only 1 submission, so Monarch and above is beyond me, so far. But.. this site is called Fanatics! I expected (and am not disappointed) Fanatics. As stated above, the only way to learn the skills required for competive play. I also know that i will never reach the level some players have but this is because MM, citymapping, culture calculator etc. Point is: this is a choice, not caused by lack of knowledge. I do think the learning experience will benefit from a minor legue.
www.civwimps.com and www.civnoob.com are still available

I guess if you play civnoob's GotM long enough, you will be strong enough to win monarch with your hands tied in your back.

 

[MarkM]

Interesting to compare results of this poll (presumably answered mostly by GOTM regulars) with this poll (presumably more representative of CFC universe -- although note it's in BTS forum, and I'd you'd expect people to rate BTS games as harder than the vanilla+warlords used for GOTM):

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=254339

 

[ButSam]

Just my 2 cents...

I will play the GotM only in the latest expansion that I own (which is BtS), and only if the difficulty level is what I am competitive at, +/- 1. (Right now, I am competitive at Prince -- still lose sometimes, but can win about 60-70% of the time on Prince now.)

I also only play at Standard (preferred) or Epic.

I am not picky on map type, but I do not like special rules. I am still trying the BotM this month because I am so excited it finally exists, but I was very disappointed to see No Tech Trading on the very first BotM...

I think the Adventurer/Contender/Challenger classes are stupid. I don't mean that as an insult to the wonderful GotM staff -- it is very admirable they want to open it to more players. I only mean that it is a temporary bonus (or drawback) that can easily be taken away (or compensated for) in a few turns. Sure, it makes things more easy (or difficult), but only by a bit.

A player who thinks the GotM is at a lower difficulty than they are accustomed will likely take Challenger (or even worse for comparing skills, Contender). Unless they are just barely above in skill than the GotM difficulty level, a good player can research 2 early techs fast and catch up.

A player who thinks the GotM is at a higher difficulty than they are accustomed will likely take Adventurer. Unless the player is just slightly worse than the difficulty level chosen, a weaker player can lose a worker or not use them efficiently (since research is a bottleneck at the beginning for worker actions, especially for some civs).

I would greatly prefer the BotM offered at 2 or 3 different difficulty levels for the same map. Maybe Adventurer = Noble/Prince, Contender = Monarch/Emperor, Challenger = Immortal/Diety? Then, there can be awards for each class, with the following rule: Once you win an award at Contender, you cannot win the same award at Adventurer. Once you win an award at Challenger, you cannot win the same award at Contender or Adventurer. They can alternate, so for BotM2 (and all even-numbered GotMs), Adventurer = Noble, Contender = Monarch, Challenger = Immortal. For BotM3 (and all odd GotMs), Adventurer = Prince, Contender = Emperor, Challenger = Diety.

That seems much better in comparing people of various skill levels. It's like Class D, C, B, A, Master, IM, and GM in chess. There are different classes of players, with the primary variable being difficulty level...not starting techs and a starting worker. For fun social games, a player may give you pawn/piece odds, but for the tournaments there is no substitute for separating people by difficulty class instead.

Sam

 

[colony]

Interesting to compare results of this poll (presumably answered mostly by GOTM regulars) with this poll (presumably more representative of CFC universe -- although note it's in BTS forum, and I'd you'd expect people to rate BTS games as harder than the vanilla+warlords used for GOTM):

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=254339

I'd actually say that what BtS did to the difficulty levels was to push them all closer together; from what I hear Noble-Prince are harder, and Monarch is about the same. Emperor is a bit easier than it was in Warlords/Vanilla from what I've found whilst playing, which probably makes Deity easier and I've been more competitive on Immortal so far too.

I'll admit I'm not exactly a regular submitter, I think I submitted 3 of the early GOTMs and stopped, mainly due to losing interest in CIV quite soon after it was released until BtS came out. To me the most interesting part of the GOTM is comparing my game to what other people do from the same start, so difficulty level is a secondary concern and I did compare a few games to what I managed on the same game after they were over. The adventurer and contender saves seem fine to me, though some unofficial competitions on the challenger save could be useful for bragging rights, though that sort of thing has to be arranged amongst players ad never used to be too popular.

 

[playshogi]

I would greatly prefer the BotM offered at 2 or 3 different difficulty levels for the same map. Maybe Adventurer = Noble/Prince, Contender = Monarch/Emperor, Challenger = Immortal/Diety?

I thought of this too, but I think the problem is that someone could load one level to get a look at the map and then have a big advantage in the level they want to compete on.

 

[ButSam]

Post edited per moderator comment.

Moderator Action: Please do not speculate about what "Cheat" mechanisms may or may not be possible. You'll only encourage some players to try.