GOTM107 - First Spoiler

civ_steve

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GOTM 107 - First spoiler, Persia, the Ancient Age



Reading Requirements:

  1. Must be able to research a Middle Ages Technology.

Posting restrictions

  1. Feel free to discuss distant contacts and trades, but be discreet about locations or directions of any AI.
  2. No discussion of middle-ages (or later) including resource locations.
  3. AS ALWAYS, do not post Spoiler information for ANY other 'X'OTM contest.


Deity level. The AI start with a ton more units than you can hope to field. How did your iniital contacts go? Did you carve out a good sized empire or did the Diety AI hem you in? And were the barbs much of a problem? Usually the AI track them down and dispose of them, but you might get a decent uprising at the age transition.
 
GOTM107 - Predator

4000 BC - 3500 BC

Settled in place researching pottery. In hindsight I'd like to congratulate Raliuven and Lanzelot on their reasoning about moving the settler NE. But I compensated my choice fairly well by paying attention to the large number of hills in the starting area and anticipating an iron resource to facilitate a 4-turn settler factory. More of that below.

Researching Pottery full blast. Building worker.
Roading SE Floodp. Then irrigating. Then moving the worker towards game and silks, for a costly (but useful for both happiness and warrior movement) hill road. Another worker will assist.

As the town grows in size worker#2 is one turn from completion. I work the roaded hill for two gold, using luxury tax, for the necessary 2 food (2+3*6=20.) It's a pity we will now be size one and can't make use of the +3g silks, but pottery is a cheap tech.

The question is what to chop for. We need warriors before granary or we may be cut down by barbs. I decide to chop the silks forest for the first warrior, wasting 4 shields. Then there will be another warrior. The game forest will be chopped for a settler or a granary.

3500 - 3000

Expansion reveals no FP wheats - thank god for that. The first warrior takes off east. What do you know: The silks tile is a BG. We work the game for one turn until the silks mine is finished, needing 3 shields to finish the second worker. The lost gold won't affect research. In 3250 we learn pottery. (This date should be similar to most solid players. ;) ) Next tech is Alphabet, never going below size two in order to always work the silks.

Worker #2 heads north. Since I don't mean for any of the workers to come back for MP duty, I will make a settler before a granary. The lack of close foreign borders (or units, darn it) has shown that it's worthwhile to build a granary, but a settler first is necessary to 1) avoid the great risk of barbs strolling in to soundly vandalise the granary or 2) avoid unit support cost if we have to churn out a warrior when the granary is finished. This is Deity: We can't be sure that we can make any gold trades at all. (A third warrior would have been even safer, but that would have meant unit support cost for quite some time.)

In 3050 two Indian warriors come a-running. We trade Alphabet (18) and 60 gold for mas/pot. We have learned that there is no BG under the game forest. Only iron in the hills can allow a 4 turn settler factory now.

3000 - 2500

Our first settler debates with himself whether to settle at distance 3, 4 or 5. He does some layman scouting to the south (moving towards the wheat) and sees another river, supporting distance 5. But I fear the corruption. And the barbs may be harder to handle.

In 2800 both the exploring warriors meet barbs. They both survive. The settler finds a second wheat. Our Writing research is crawling along. It was unfortunate that the settler put the capital to size 1, unable to work the silk. Had I known I'd make money from India I would have built another warrior before the settler. Well, we'll soon be size 2 again.

I decide on distance 4 from the capital and settle Pasargadae by the wheat. There's a third wheat! And a hut!! The Indians pop barbs that rob us of 33g on the same turn we founded Pasargadae! Pasargadae builds worker of course.

Next turn we meet the Vikings. We want Bronze, to edge ourselves closer to Iron Working, so we trade it for Masonry and 14 gold, only to find that no neighbour has IW. We hold on to Alphabet, hoping Vikings will get IW soon.

In 2550 the Vikings suddenly have Iron Working and The Wheel, but won't trade it. We meet Babylon the same turn, however, who give us another 66 gold for pottery. But the Vikings are totally unimpressed by money. I decide to wait until my other two contacts have IW, hoping that the Vikings won't trade Alphabet soon. If they do, we won't get The Wheel, WC and CB, which Ragnar offers now.

Meanwhile, a short hike by our third warrior has revealed Indian borders to the west, and another wheat. This means we should probably claim that wheat with a settler soon. The granary would be delayed even more. Is this a reason to wait for the discovery of iron and a possible 4 turner until we can trade Writing around? What a poser! I decide to postpone the Ragnar trade again. IW should be right around the corner for India and Babylon. Ragnar has just wasted his money on something else, probably Mysticism.

Next turn I can see that Ragnar is researching Alphabet. But I'll wait a couple of more turns. He still offers two techs, including The Wheel, and cash for Alphabet.

2500 - 2000

In 2430 we give up and trade Wheel, CB and 19 gold. We then get WC from India for Wheel. I've changed my build of a second settler to granary. Even if the Indian town expands we can claim the western wheat. The following turn a barb hoseman threatens poor Pasargadae. Some of our people are lost, which was much better than "Our work on worker has been destroyed."

We suddenly know Greece, who has writing - and so does Babylon. Neither of them knows Scandinavia. We sell Greece the contact for what's left of Writing (5.) Vikings know all the other AIs. Important as these contacts are, I must have IW soon and trading new contacts instead of IW might mean we won't be able to trade IW anytime soon. It is likely that Viking contact trades will get me the contacts. The year is 2350 BC and I trade IW. Lo and behold! There is iron! This is great for my game plan.

We trade Myst and some cash from our western friends for IW. Moving on to literature.

In 2030 we have completed the granary and the settler factory is ready. We have finally spotted the wines up north. No further trading opportunities have been available. I guess the AIs are striving blindly for Map Making.

2000 - 1500

We spend our time searching desperately for the 3 remaining AIs, whom we could perhaps have met already. In 1725 we connect wines with our first SF settler. We also get to know the Zulu this year (unless I missed checking the turns before) but we still don't know where they live. But selling World Map to Zulu gives us contact with the others. The Zulus are big - 10 towns already.

We decide not to trade HB.

In 1650 we claim the horses by settling on them. In 1575 we learn Literature and trade it for Philosophy, Mathematics, Map Making and gold. Our treasury peaks at 501 gold. Next is Code of Laws.

In 1550 we whip library in Pasargadae. I want immortals for defense, but culture and beakers are also important.

1500 - 1000 BC

A Babylonian bowman threatens Antioch by the southwestern wheat but he moves on. In 1450 we trade CoL (5) for WM and 86 gold - most civs suddenly have it. The next big question is if we should go full blast on Republic (38 turns at 90% at the moment) or earn over 800 gold through minimum research. If nothing unexpected happens full blast will bring us down to about 250-300 gold minus upgrades, minus AI demands, which will be little to support a growing army. I'll sleep on it.

Having slept (a little,) I decide that I should go full blast on republic, even if I only save 10-12 turns. Reasons: It is cheaper to support high research in despotism than in Republic and some more libraries should be easy to come by, and important for the sake of territory protection. Lastly, there is a small chance of a monopoly and a reasonable chance of a semi-monopoly. Being last to learn republic is not good for trading. We could end up having to research most of the last mandatory techs.

Not much happens. We are robbed of 66 gold. We are able to fill up all the RCP4 spots we want except one rather jungle infested spot. We build a library in Persepolis - not wanting the unhappiness that comes with pop rushing.

We trade spices and 53 gold from India for our ONLY wine source. It requires a settler at non-rcp4.

We hurried library in Arbela. We pay India for RCP and get them up to gracious. They were in a threatening position. But having them constantly run through our territory is not good. We don't want to give India any techs and so a threat could force us to yield. I make up my mind to trade away Republic the moment I get it, even if I can only get one of the remaining techs and a s***load of cash. It is strange that no one has researched Polytheism yet. But Republic is still many turns away.

In 1125 we finally connected the second wine for 4 luxuries. Soon we may be able to trade with Babylon. Both them and India have harbours.

In 1000 BC we have 9 towns and a settler. India has a monopoly on Republic while we a 3 turns away. This is 19 turns less than it would have been with minimum research.


My biggest misjudgement was an exaggerated fear of barbs, as the diary above shows. The deity AI did their job and quenched the barbs well. My biggest mistake was not to pop-rush granary in Pasargadae earlier. But before we learned Republic we popped-rushed that granary as well as 4 libraries (3 were built normally in food poor lands and in Persepolis) and 1 barracks.

1000 BC - 875 BC

When we are about to learn Republic our strategy has begun to change because of the comparatively slow AI research. Polytheism and Currency have still not been discovered by anyone. This makes me lean towards using immortals instead of waiting for mounted units. We can now disconnect the iron without destroying the settler factory. We can build many warriors for upgrade. A shield shortage supports the upgrade plan. We haven't really gone to work on the hills yet; mostly flood plains have gotten the workers' attention.

We get a semi-monopoly with India on Republic in 950 BC. Only Constrution, HB and cash is available for trade. We cash in 600 gold and the techs. 5 turn anarchy. (Actually it said 4 after the re-roll, but that is the same since we can only check the anarchy duration after the reroll when a turn has passed.)

In 900 BC there are uprisings. In 875 we buy Currency from Zululand and trade Polythism from Babylon. We both get Feudalism. Germany has Engineering. We gift Greece, who get Monotheism. We get our money back with interest by selling Feudalism to Zulu. We also sell Feud to Germany for 3gpt and two luxuries.
 

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GOTM 107 Predator

i do not believe i will be able to put up a serious competition to these results. my early game went totally different. so it is about being able to actually WIN my game, more so than being able to compete with yours.

my capital got struck with disease FOUR TIMES in the early game. i never would be able to build a granary there. my AIs did NOT kill the barbs (only in the uprisings). therefore, early growth was a disaster.

i will post more details so everyone can see my struggle in a real "come from behind"-game. if i will, that is.

templar_x
 
@t_x
My condolancies on the early disease. I don't think I got any disease at all, even though I worked the SE floodplain every single turn - extreme luck.

One way to look at it is that games that are hard to win at all tend to be quite fun. And it's not too late for me to encounter some disaster or another.
 
the game is indeed a lot of fun! honestly, it has been a while when even a Deity AI gave me a serious challenge...

currently i see the possibility to actually NOT lose the game, but for quite some time in the AA, a real loss was definitely closer than anything else.


when i opened the save, i was still optimistic: checking the rivalling civs i find that we are the only ones with Masonry. Shouldn´t we be able to strike a deal or two here?

AA:

Move worker east, see regular grass; found town in place, see silks (bg silks? i did not try and did not find out :eek:) and the tile that changes any plan: forest game

build order:
warrior-warrior-settler

research order:
self research Pottery. Min on IW. Min on Lit.

3450 find wines
3350 Gandhi passes by, trade Mas for BW+10g
3200 hit by disease! (as always, twice, which brings me back to size 1 again!)
3050 meet Babs, can trade Mas for CB but hold off for one turn
3000 trading opportunity gone, f***; silks connected
2670 meet Greece, trade Mas+14g+1gpt for Alpha; they already have Writing, too! Alpha to Babs for 25g+WC
2630 change granary build to settler due to approaching barbs. The first one to enter my capital takes 101g, which is ALL OF MY GOLD?!?! Have never seen that before.
2470 found 2nd town 3nw
2190 disease in Persepolis again
2110 trading round nets me Wri, TW, CB and change
1870 Zulus find me. Trading round nets me all contacts, IW, Myst and most of the gold around. Vikes are as small as I am, Germany rather weak. Iron is next to the cap.
1725 reluctantly found 3rd town on the wine hill, as i see no better settling pattern
1625 major map trading. I see the shape of the world plus get some money and Philo
1050 barb uprising, 5 AIs have entered the MA

qsc 1000bc:
5 cities
14 pop
57 land
2 workers, 1 slave, 3 warriors, 2 archers, 1 horse, 2 cats, 7 immortals ready to strike against India in 2 turns
1 rax
7 turns to (currently) monopoly on Lit
CoL, Curr and Con lacking in AA

1000 I build embassy in Delhi. They´re in their GA, building the GW in nil time!
Germany declares, providing WH
975 declare on India
950 start GA
925 4 turns out of Lit and everyone has it :(
Although they have iron connected, the Indians build only MIs but not pikes. Yet.
850 remove or declare on Babs, they declare. Ally India against them with peace. Hope my northern front will hold. Gain Monarchy and the rest of the obligatory AA techs, entering MA.

i am still on my way out of the deep hole i fell in due to early disease and barbs. that was quite a series of bad luck with regard to the competition with the Megalosaur, but i still have a lot of fun with that challenging game. i think i had only 2 towns and 3 pop in 2000bc - on Deity level! i´ll let ya know if this is still winnable (for me)....

templar_x
 
975 declare on India
Eeek! That took guts! How did you get away with it!? Good war activity, overall, but this sounds rough and tough.

You seem to have a lifeline in the immortals, and using it.

Re the outrageous barb steal: All your money is divided by your number of cities. Eg if you had 100 gold and 10 cities, a barb would steal 10 gold. If you only have one town, I'm afraid the barb takes the lot. What you hadn't experienced before was being robbed owning just one town, I guess.
 
yup. i confess i did have a strange feeling in my stomach when i pushed the button and declared on them.

as i can see from the pic India was all around you in your game as well.

i fear i still cannot say how my early warring turned out ... not in this spoiler at least. ;)

templar_x

ps: i am sure you are right about my 1-city robbing experience.
 
i fear i still cannot say how my early warring turned out ... not in this spoiler at least.

Whatever you say, dear adversary, but I also noticed that this happened before the end of the AA:

Ally India against them with peace.
What could happen in your geographical proximity that isn't fit for Spoiler 1? I suspect a typo.
 
oh, i see. you only wanted to know whether i survived the FIRST INDIAN WAR. you bet i did. :)

the goals were only very limited for this first war. coming from so far behind, i could not even settle all my 1st ring town locations. so i wanted to get myself a bit more room, but India stood in the way. so the first war was chosen so that take 2 or 3 of their towns for a better starting position in the SECOND INDIAN WAR.

this goal was achieved, and so much can easily be said.

templar_x
 
:hatsoff:
Things unravel.... You said nothing about this because you wanted to underplay your performance, admit it. You probably feel suboptimal about such an early GA, but let's remember from my minimap that I did not manage to fit in all 1st ring towns either. It seems like you are one ring town up at the end of the AA, and so we have begun to deconstruct the generalized tone of this two-man thread. :ninja:
 
underplaying my performance? seriously, no: my performance is awesome of course :D how else could i still be alive after such a start.

one ring town up? you're kidding, right? if i ever get internet connected back home again i will upload a pic of my core for you, just for your pity and laughs.

with all that pop and production, even the shadow of your troops at that time would have eaten my puny civ's military alive!

re another two-man thread: maybe every one else is as dead as i am in that game and therefore does not speak up.

templar_x
 
with all that pop and production, even the shadow of your troops at that time would have eaten my puny civ's military alive!
Flattery will not make me underestimate you. Here's my megalodon-size unit collection in 875 BC:
Workers: 7
Warriors: 4
Chariots: 2

They just outnumber the fearsome Pontipines of "In the Night Garden" (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_KdGfDF_cLhI/SkJJruaA34I/AAAAAAAAUYU/Jb-uSGrimr0/s320/Pontipines-rouges_432_320.jpg)

Seriously, the Monarchy/Republic difference will be interesting to explore.
 
re another two-man thread: maybe every one else is as dead as i am in that game and therefore does not speak up.

templar_x

Just to make this a three-man thread: I'm still struggling to finish COTM76 and will not try this one. (A Deity game takes too much time for me these days. And then there's the ISDG coming up...) However, I will probably regret it: this sounds like a hell of fun!

So there was really a deer in the forest?! Hmm, looks like I can meanwhile read civ_steve's mind... But that makes the game too easy, doesn't it... ;) I would much rather have liked it, if the 5-turner I mentioned in the pre-game had indeed been the optimal solution...
 
@ Megalou - does it happen that you´re forgetting 2 grans and a couple of rax in your list? (compared to 1 rax and no gran)

but hell no, of course you should never underestimate my will to beat the machine ;)

@ Lanzelot - i should have listened to you more carefully. and yes, waaaaaay too easy...

templar_x
 
OPEN

Well I played this until MA, but unlikely that will manage to finish it. Settled in place researching pottery...
Build W-Settler W- Granary. Met India soon and trade Alpha +10 for BW and Mas. After Pottery research Writing full speed. Got under pressure of Barbarian from North from early 2000 BC. They interfere with Silk, but did bot pillage(?). They try to go to undefended City at south around Persipolis. No real harm, but all army need to stay at home... Indians got Writing first and trade contact "with me" to Greeks. Bought contact with Babylonians, trade Pottery - Writing and research Literature full speed. Around 1600 BC trade all contacts and WM, using Literature Monopoly. Was terribly squeezed by India culture pressure. Pop rush some libs and go to Republic full speed. At 950 BC India was at MA (alone) Remove or Declare to Greeks, got monopoly on Republic at 925 BC, trade to India, got Engineering. Trade to Babs for MA, Babylons got Engineering as well. Brought India to MA as well for Engineering. That's it. Have only 6 Cities, none on the coast, 2 vet Horses and 8 reg Warriors.
4 turns Anarchy.
 
I expected that I'd have plenty of time to finish this, despite starting late, as I don't anticipate lasting very long. I did settle northeast and I got off to a better start than anticipated. I survived the first attack by Babylon and razed a few of their jungle cities before making peace. In retrospect, perhaps I should have tried to finish them off, but I didn't really have the means to continue the war effectively. The only optimistic sign at the end of the AA is that I'm still alive.
 
Deity games still scare me, and this started off with all my fears realized.
No great starting spot ( 3 cows would have been nice), lots of military running through my territory, I still don't have all the first tier techs and I see medieval infantry running around.

So the plan... warrior, worker,grianery, and put out settlers on a size 4 ring.

At 1000bc
cities 9
pop 24
workers 2
slaves 4
warriors 2
immortals 7

I have disconnected iron again, and I am at war with Babs.

War ends, picked up two towns, leveled one, and gained a few more slaves.
India has built the GL, so make war with Vikings, enlist the Indian army for help, regarrison my army near some of his cities.

Taking the GL gets me out of this age of course, and I earned a Leader from it.
 
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