GOTM98 - First Spoiler

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GOTM 98 - First spoiler, the Ancient Age



Reading Requirements:

  1. Must be able to research a Middle Ages Technology.

Posting restrictions

  1. Feel free to discuss distant contacts and trades, but be discreet about locations or directions of any AI.
  2. No discussion of middle-ages (or later) including resource locations.
  3. AS ALWAYS, do not post Spoiler information for ANY other 'X'OTM contest.


One of these years I'll manage to be AHEAD of the whole Christmas preparation race, and not feel like I've been steamrolled :rolleyes: , but it was a lot of fun! Here come all 3 spoilers for GOTM98 - sorry for the delays, and hope your holidays were great!

OK, where did your Aztecs decide to settle? How was your empire established? Pangaea - were you planning for an early Conquest victory, and did that go as planned? Did you fire off a Golden Age, and if so, was it Despotic? How is your game going, as you enter the Middle Ages?
 
4000 BC: Settle in place Jags x4
3350 BC: Anasazi gives us 25 gold
3300 BC: Meet and trade with Arabia, gain masonry for WC + 48.
3050 BC: Meet America, gain pottery for WC + 2.
2950 BC: Meet Celts, gain BW + 35 for Masonry, buy worker from Arabia for 1 gpt + 91 g.
2900 BC: Anasazi teaches us The Wheel. Meet Egypt, up Pottery, Wheel, and WC
2550 BC: Meet Babylon who are down Masonry, Pottery, Wheel
2390 BC: Buy Mysticism from Arabia for 43, America and Arabia have Alphabet.
2150 BC: Trade Babylon Wheel, Masonry, 21 g for Iron Working
2110 BC: Trade Arabia IW for Alpha + 1
1625 BC: America sells HBR to me for 83 g.
1550 BC: Iron Connected, IBT Arabia declares war on me.
1125 BC: Buy contact with Indians, trade them Wheel, Masonry, for Writing + 32. Trade contact with Indians for contact with Japanese from America.

QSC 1000 BC: 5 towns, 13 pop, 112 g, 65 land, 19 gpt, 14 units - 4 archers, 4 Jags, 3 Swords, 3 Workers (1 is a slave), tech leader 34 turns to Monarchy. Know America, Arabia (@ war), India, Babylo, Egypt, Japan, Celts. Iron, incense, and fur connected, building 2 swords, granary, worker and barracks.

570 BC: Build Pyramids with first GL, Buy MM, CoL, Philo and worker from America for 420 g.
490 BC: Buy Lit from India for 96 g.
350 BC: Buy Math from Babylon for 102g.
290 BC: Hurry FP in Mecca with GL.
270 BC: Monarchy!
250 BC: Peace with Arabia for the return of my Iron town... (stupid, stupid, stupid...)
110 AD: Complete Construction to enter middle ages, trade Currency, Construction, and 122 g for Republic. 14 towns, 16 Swords, 9 workers, 2 settler, 2 archer, 1 spear, 1 jag. Building 4 barracks, 2 settlers, 4 swords, 4 temples. 168 land, 51 pop, 228 g.

Things are going well heading into the Middle Ages. A good number of GLs have allowed some rapid wonder development.
 
I saw the cow in the fog and therefore decided to settle 1SE. Build order was two jags, then another worker, more jags, and finally settler. The second town was founded between the Wheat and the floodplain. It built an immediate granary and then settlers and workers. The third town was founded in such a way, that the game tile became usable for the second town, and from then on the second town was able to build 5-turn settlers using the game, wheat, floodplain, mined BG and a mined hill. Unfortunately a river (or Aqueduct) was missing for a 4-turner.

One of my scouting jags declared war on Babylon quite early (~2500BC) and captured a worker and destroyed an empty town. (I've never seen an empty AI town before?! :confused: Perhaps a barb horse killed the escort after the town was settled?!) Normally I don't attack with a lone jaguar warrior, but that opportunity was quite favorable: it caused quite a bit of damage to an opponent and allowed the setup of a couple of MAPT deals, fishing for war happiness. And this attack was so early, that by the time the MA approached, the Babylonians had "forgotten" my little invasion and were polite again.

An attack by Egypt caused an unexpected despotic GA in ~1200BC, as an Egyptian archer attacked one of my scouting jaguars on a mountain and lost... :(
Fortunately I had gone straight for Monarchy, which was reached around ~950BC. So I still had 9 turns of Monarchic GA, but my core was far from complete yet by that time.

The good points of the early GA were that I reached Monarchy faster that way, and that I finally had 4-turn settlers, resulting in 10 towns at 1000BC.

Around the same time my MAPT deals triggered a war with the Arabs, so I decided they would be my first real target. As horses were still far away, I sent a handful of archers and many jags, which finished Arabia by 600BC. (I waited 2-3 turns for the last capital to expand.) There are still ~15 jags in Arabian territory waiting to be upgraded to MI and then attack Egypt from the south, while horsemen from the core are going to attack from the east. This "slow force" will then continue with Babylon and India, while a new Knight force from the core will march the long way to America and Japan. At the moment I have Babylon signed up against Egypt, that should make the war vs both easier. Also another MAPT deal triggered war happiness from Japan, and I have signed up America against Japan in order to grind these two down as well.

I was thinking a long time, whether horsemen would be sufficient for fast conquest (as it would have been in GOTM97), but in the end I decided against it. Monarch is a bit tougher than Regent, and because of the long distances I expect to see Pikes when I reach the distant AIs.

Concerning research the AI was quite good in this game considering that it is only Monarch: I researched Mysticism, Polytheism, Monarchy, Philosophy and Code of Laws to enter the MA around 650BC, the rest was traded. (I could have been even two turns faster, if I hadn't "wasted" two turns on Currency, which I was able to trade from America then.) I gifted up Babylon, who got Monotheism, so I started on Feudalism in 13. But that will be a story for the next spoiler.

Lanzelot
 
Predator

Capital built: JW, JW. Granary 2900, settler 2670, JW 2590, settler 2350, then settlers/warriors every 8 turns
Research: Pottery 3350, Alphabet 2470, Writing 1750, 1400 CoL, Philosophy 1250, The Republic 800, Currency 230 BC
Contacts: 3350 Arabia, Egypt 3150, Babylon 2900, America 2710, Japan 2310, Celts 1910, Indians 1725
3000 buy worker from Egypt
2550 found Teotihuacan
2470 worker from America
2190 found Tlatelolco
1725 worker from Celts;
Embassy Arabia, Egypt
1700 worker from India;
Hurry granary in Teotihuacan
1575 embassy Celts; settler from Teotihuacan; babs declare on us war, WH for us
1550 hurry temple in Tlatelolco
1500 build Calixtlahuaca
1475 temple in Texcoco; found Xocichalco
1425 worker from America
1375 trade worker from Egypt
1200 worker from America
1125 have full WM

1000 BC: 11 towns, 22 pop, 2 settlers, 11 workers, 7 slaves, 2 granaries, 2 temples, barracks

775 become Republic; gift Republic around, so AI’s could develop land faster, grow faster
710 DoW Arabia
690 capture Damascus
670 take Basra
650 5 horsemen
630 game crashes
610 capture Mecca
570 capture Najran; peace Arabia for Medina
530 10 horsemen
510 DoW Egypt; start GA, capture Heliopolis;
Forbidden Palace finishes
450 take Memphis; game crashes
430 abandon Tenochtitlan, palace goes to Mecca
390 4th lux connected
370 peace Egypt for Alexandria
350 ROP Egypt. Arabia, Japan, America
330 peace Babylon
310 DoW Egypt, take Thebes and destroy Egypt
210 trade Currency for Construction and enter Middle Ages

488 tiles, 51 town, 106 citizens, 74 cpt, 19 horsemen, 34 workers, 6 settlers
190 civ crashes
 

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1000 BC: 11 towns, 22 pop, 2 settlers, 11 workers, 7 slaves, 2 granaries, 2 temples, barracks

775 become Republic; gift Republic around, so AI’s could develop land faster, grow faster

If you want the AI to grow fast, you shouldn't buy all their workers... :lol: But anyway: I really wonder, how you manage to get so many slaves?! In my games the AI almost never has a worker for sale, and if they have, then I can't afford the price...

630 game crashes
...
450 take Memphis; game crashes
...
190 civ crashes

Apparently you are taking Civ to its limits...! :D :goodjob: I'm looking forward to see the result of this game; I guess we can expect "great deeds" again from you on this one.

Lanzelot
 
Two more questions: did you settle in place? And I hope, you are going for Domination...?!

Hey. I settled 1SE near plains cow. This was a mistake as I had 8 turn settler factory in capital instead of 6 turn (cow + floodplain if settled in place). And I'm going for a Cultural 100 K victory with all those cheap temples and cathedrals.

If you want the AI to grow fast, you shouldn't buy all their workers... But anyway: I really wonder, how you manage to get so many slaves?! In my games the AI almost never has a worker for sale, and if they have, then I can't afford the price...

For me MapStat pops up when a worker is for sale. Barbs were quite active in this GOTM, so more AI workers hiding in their capitals.
I was the tech leader all the time, so workers were bought for techs and gold or for gold (6gpt is a market price for a slave worker, so I paid gpt and then borrowed gold from AI's, captured barb camps in order not to bankrupt).

:D "gift Republic around, so AI’s could develop land faster, grow faster" doesn't make sense about workers developing land faster of course, I don't remember what was I thinking. Republic was gifted so AI's could grow and settle more towns faster (no food penalty in Republic compared to Despotism) so I won't autoraze when capturing them.

Apparently you are taking Civ to its limits...! I'm looking forward to see the result of this game; I guess we can expect "great deeds" again from you on this one.

Haha, probably not suitable software or me pressing pc too hard. I see that I can finish in 12xx AD, but not beating the current best 1180 AD 100k victory in GOTM.

Plan is to approach domination limit ASAP, ICS everything and build/rush/poprush culture (we are religious so I can swith from Republic to Despotism and vice versa as much as I want or need).

Good luck everyone!
 
Hey. I settled 1SE near plains cow. This was a mistake as I had 8 turn settler factory in capital instead of 6 turn (cow + floodplain if settled in place).
Yes, same mistake as I made... But that cow in the fog was just too tempting. How deceitful, Steve! :devil:

And I'm going for a Cultural 100 K victory with all those cheap temples and cathedrals.
Interesting. At first I wanted to try the same. But when the GOTM97 results came out and I saw that Drazek beat my Conquest attempt by two turns, I decided to try another Conquest. And good I did: there's no way I could beat your game here: everything seemed to have gone perfect: the early Republic, early Palace jump & second core, many slaves and a well-timed GA. I only wonder, why you reached the MA so "late". I guess I was luckier with getting help from the AI: I only researched 5 techs and got the rest from the AI; you had to research 7 techs including the expensive Republic. And I was in GA, while I researched Monarchy, that cut the time for Monarchy in half.

(6gpt is a market price for a slave worker
Never thought of offering gpt. :( I always thought one had to pay the 120g in cash... Got to try this next time.

Republic was gifted so AI's could grow and settle more towns faster (no food penalty in Republic compared to Despotism) so I won't autoraze when capturing them.
And in addition they can't pop-rush spearmen, when you approach their towns...!

I do hope that templar_x and Megalou will be back for this one, then it'll really get a very tough competition! We already had 19 submissions for GOTM97, even without these two.

Lanzelot
 
I only wonder, why you reached the MA so "late".

Simply I didn't rush to MA since there's nothing beneficial waiting for me there, except for cathedrals which will be needed a bit later in a game during the culture rushing phase.

After researching Republic I turned research off and shortrushed settlers/workers/horses/temples.

Horsemen is all You need to conquer world in this game.
 
I finished the game before Christmas, but got a chance to post only now. I'll do my best to remember what happened in my game

Moved the worker W, saw the floodplain. Didn't see enough reasons to move the settler, so settled in place. After seeing the cow, was glad I did so
First research was the Wheel. This was a mistake I won't make again. I wanted to see where the Horses were, but not researching Pottery first I significantly slowed down my early expansion
The capital built 2 jags, then a settler. The second town was founded in 2900BC near the game forest. This city built Barracks, and then spears for other towns
After the first settler, the capital started to build Temple as a prebuild for Granary. However, I forgot to change the build once Pottery was discovered -- another mistake. Anyway, after the Granary was completed, with a little micromanagement the capital became a settler factory, finally making my expansion rapid
3rd and 4th towns were founded by 1700BC, and I had 8 towns by 1000BC. Expansion was mostly to the north. I was confident the land south from my capital was mine in any case, and paid for it when the Arabs founded a town near the iron source SE from my capital. Fortunately, there were other iron sources available
By 1000BC, my jags met Egyptians, Arabs, Celts, Babylonians and Americans. I was able to trade extensively, gaining quite a few technologies. I also bought world maps and contacts with Indians and Americans. So I had an almost complete map of the pangaea, and contacts with everyone. I also was the tech leader
Around 1000BC, Japanese demanded Philosophy from me. Since they were a long way away, I wasn't afraid of them, and refused. They declared war -- so nice of them to give me war happiness. To be on the safe side, I signed up Americans against them. The Japanese probably did have a decent military, because they managed to capture New York and raze Philadelphia before signing peace around 500BC. But they didn't fire a shot at me, and that was what I wanted
At this point of the game, not all of my cities were defended by spearmen, and barbarians were a concern. But their villages gave me some much needed cash, and in most cases jags were enough to kill them, although I lost a few workers to them
Around 600BC I had few space to expand, and my core cities had Barracks and Temples built, so I started to build swordsmen. I decided Egyptians were to be my first target, because they had the Horses and some Dyes I wanted. However, I had to hold off the attack for a few turns: I entered Middle Ages around 250BC, and there was a barbarian uprising, so I had about 12 barbarian horses to defeat before I could proceed with the attack

I didn't change from Despotism to Monarchy during Ancient Ages, because too few of my towns have grown over size 6, and I would have too high army cost in Monarchy. I felt I needed to build more Aqueducts and have more cities before the switch would be justified. So by the time I entered Middle Ages, towns which were at size 6 or close to it were building Aqueducts, the rest were building swordsmen. The capital was building The Great Library, I didn't even try to build any other wonders. I had 2 or 3 settlers ready to build towns in gaps on the captured territory

A couple of questions, if I may:
What's the best way to use artillery units? I never played a pangaea map before, so before starting this game, I created a random map with the same settings, and played it for some time. I tried to use catapults in my attacks, but got too many "artillery attack failed" messages. It looked like I needed 5 catapults to take just one hit point from one of the spears defending a town. If this is the case, you need a stack of 20 catapults to bombard 2 regular spears defending a town to 1 hit point. Is it worth the effort, when swordsmen and even horsemen without artillery support work against defending spearmen quite nicely?
Lancelot, could you please explain more about MAPT deals you mentioned? I couldn't decipher this abbreviation, and failed to understand how you can get war happiness through early game deals
 
Hi yuris,
welcome to GOTM! (I think, this is your first game=?!) Here a few comments on your game.

I didn't change from Despotism to Monarchy during Ancient Ages, because too few of my towns have grown over size 6, and I would have too high army cost in Monarchy. I felt I needed to build more Aqueducts and have more cities before the switch would be justified.
Always try to get out of Despotism as soon as possible! By voluntarily staying in Despotism, you cripple your game too much. The change is worth it, even if you only have a few small towns. The reasons are:
  • You get more food from food bonuses / irrigated tiles. Your population sky-rockets and settler/worker output gets a boost
  • Reduced corruption ==> more shields / commerce
  • You get a shorter anarchy, the earlier you revolt. In addition an anarchy with 6 small towns hurts you much less than an anarchy with 20 big productive cities...
  • Republic has the additional bonus that your commerce income basically doubles!
Sometimes there are problems with unit upkeep, after switching too Republic, but with Monarchy you should always be ok regarding unit upkeep.

A couple of questions, if I may:
What's the best way to use artillery units? I never played a pangaea map before, so before starting this game, I created a random map with the same settings, and played it for some time. I tried to use catapults in my attacks, but got too many "artillery attack failed" messages. It looked like I needed 5 catapults to take just one hit point from one of the spears defending a town.
On the lower levels artillery units are not needed. They are too slow to keep up with your advance, and they do too little damage. Build horsemen instead. (And later knights, cavalry.)
On higher levels (Demigod and above, sometimes also in especially tough Emperor games), however, the situation is different. Here the AI usually has more and better units than you, and here artillery is useful. In the beginning you will use them defensively, and here there strength doubles: you get two shots per turn out of every artillery piece: one shot during your turn and then one "defensive shot" during the AI's turn, when an AI unit attacks your town. Also later when you go on the offensive, you will need artillery for reducing the many strong defenders in AI towns. But should be at least trebuchet (in C3C) or cannons. Catapults will be too weak and already out-dated by the time you go on the offensive.

Lancelot, could you please explain more about MAPT deals you mentioned? I couldn't decipher this abbreviation, and failed to understand how you can get war happiness through early game deals

"Military Alliance + Peace Treaty". I.Larkin explained it in the following strategy article: War happiness works!. See point three. Basically you need to ring up someone and check, whether he will agree to a Military Alliance (MA) against a third party. If yes, don't make that deal yet, but go to "Active Deals". Click on the Peace Treaty (PT) (this can't be done, if you have made peace with them less then 20 turns ago) and say yes to the question "Do you want to renegotiate peace". Then add the MA to that deal (and some gold/tech, if you can't get the deal for free), and you have "tied" the PT and MA together. If you are lucky, they will sign peace with the third party, before the 20 turns of your MA are up, and then this will automatically trigger a war declaration against you (because together with the MA they also "broke" the PT)... :D

Lanzelot
 
Thanks a lot for answering, Lanzelot!

welcome to GOTM! (I think, this is your first game=?!)
Actually, this is my second game, I managed to finish 14th in GOTM97, but hope the GOTM98 result will be better :)

Always try to get out of Despotism as soon as possible! By voluntarily staying in Despotism, you cripple your game too much. The change is worth it, even if you only have a few small towns.
Well, my calculations showed that after switching to Monarchy, unit upkeep will become too high. And I didn't even consider Republic because I was going to be at war during most of the game, and expected war weariness to be a major problem. But I didn't take into account that towns will grow into cities quicker after the switch to Monarchy, so this delay was another mistake. Will keep it in mind in the next game

On the lower levels artillery units are not needed. They are too slow to keep up with your advance, and they do too little damage. Build horsemen instead. (And later knights, cavalry.)
I see. I got the idea that artillery is necessary reading posts about HOF games, and obviously they were played on high difficulty levels :) I didn't play on a high level yet, Monarch is my ceiling at the moment (but I think I'll try the next high difficulty GOTM). Thanks for explaining!

"Military Alliance + Peace Treaty". I.Larkin explained it in the following strategy article: War happiness works!. See point three. Basically you need to ring up someone and check, whether he will agree to a Military Alliance (MA) against a third party. If yes, don't make that deal yet, but go to "Active Deals". Click on the Peace Treaty (PT) (this can't be done, if you have made peace with them less then 20 turns ago) and say yes to the question "Do you want to renegotiate peace". Then add the MA to that deal (and some gold/tech, if you can't get the deal for free), and you have "tied" the PT and MA together. If you are lucky, they will sign peace with the third party, before the 20 turns of your MA are up, and then this will automatically trigger a war declaration against you (because together with the MA they also "broke" the PT)... :D
Wow, what a great trick :D Definitely will try it in the next game :)

Cheers
Yuri
 
Well, I'm almost certainly not going to get this one finished. I'm barely out of the ancient age. I thought I'd try leader-fishing for 20K, rather than just building it, but it hasn't worked out. I didn't have much time anyway, but the warring has gotten very tiresome and I've gotten no leaders. I have zillions of elite units, and a huge number of elite wins, but no leaders. I can't even say that I haven't been lucky, because vet units are promoting faster than expected, but it has been useless luck.
 
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