Government Specific UUs

[Teabeard]

In civ 3 we have Civ specific UUs, and that is great. How about in addition to civ specific UUs we also add government specific UUs? Civ 2 had this in the fanatic which only the Fundamentalist government type could build. I would like to see this in Civ IV except that every single government type has a UU, or maybe even several.

Here are some examples:

Knights - Only Feudalist governments types can build these.

Stormtroopers - Only Fascist governments can build these.

Liberty Ships - Only representative governments can build these. They are transports which are dirt cheap. The U.S. built them extensively in WW2 and some say it was what won the war.

Revolutionary Guerilla - Only communist governments can build these. They have the hide nationality flag so that you can send them into other civ territory and do battle without causing war. If they succeed in capturing a city that city begins to produce more guerillas and if the entire civ is conquered by these guerillas the government of that civ reverts to Communism.

Fanatic - This is the UU for Fundamentalist government types. I think it should be watered down from what it was in civ 2, though, because in civ 2 it was very strong.

Legionairre - Only Imperialist governments can build these. Yes, I know it is the Roman UU but perhaps the Romans can be given something else? Or maybe their UU is a more powerful version of the generic Legionairre? Anyway, this unit should be able to build roads and fortresses which is what the Roman Legion traditionally did during times of peace.


Any others?

 

[Ivan the Kulak]

Yeah, that's a good idea, been suggested by myself and others before. I don't know how much I would allow Gov specific UU in the ancient/middle ages, though, there really were no really unique soldiers of any type way back when, if you stop to consider. Everybody had some basic foot unit, horse unit, etc. Where this idea starts to shine is when you have the heavy duty ideologies of the 20th century opposing one another. Then you can have some more specialized characteristics. Fascism, for example, a Fascist or Storm Trooper would be good, a foot unit that gets an attack and defense bonus against any Communist controlled unit. Or, for Communism, a Shock Worker, a political criminal who can not rejoin cities, but works twice as hard, as the secret police whip him on. Or as you suggested, a Marxist Guerilla, or Revolutionary. These units can grab workers/settlers in neutral territory or at the edge of a civs borders and convert them to the Marxist cause (more guerillas) without starting wars. For Democracies, I don't know, maybe a volunteer foot soldier, you may draft 2 of these from each city in time of war without penalty, give them stats slightly higher than the WWI era infantry (Balou's Modern Infantry would be great for these). Make them available with Computers or some other first tier modern tech.

 

[Jon Shafer]

Sounds like a good idea, though it would definitely need balancing.

 

[norwegianviking]

What would monarchy's be? I can't think of any thing!

 

[Jon Shafer]

King Arthur's court!

 

[Teabeard]

What would monarchy's be? I can't think of any thing!

Or Despotism for that matter.

I guess those two governments don't get one.

 

[dh_epic]

Monarchy? Royal Guard maybe.

This points out an important gap -- I think there's a distinct lack of modern dictatorships in the game. Fascist only describes a few lucky nations, and despotism isn't viable nor descriptive enough that late in the game. It ignores the Juntas of Latin America and similar miltary-dictatorships in the middle east and the occasional pacific nation.

 

[Teabeard]

Monarchy? Royal Guard maybe.

This points out an important gap -- I think there's a distinct lack of modern dictatorships in the game. Fascist only describes a few lucky nations, and despotism isn't viable nor descriptive enough that late in the game. It ignores the Juntas of Latin America and similar miltary-dictatorships in the middle east and the occasional pacific nation.

There needs to be an incentive to choose that government. I think maybe lessening the control you have in representative governments is a good way to go. That way players who want total control will be more likely to choose despotism, despite what weaknesses it may have. Maybe it's weaknesses should also be reduced?

 

[sir_schwick]

Actually what if each government had a UU for each of these categories - Espionage, Gaurd/Military, Worker.

Communism:
KGB Agent - Can gain military plans and city intelligence without paying gold for it.
Revolutionary Geurilla - No nationality and slightly stronger Geurillas.
Gulag - Slave labor, no upkeep.

Monarchy:
Assassin - Can kill generals and mayors, either causing an unhappy face or the unit to not be able to attack for a turn(can still defend).
Royal Bodygaurds - Better version of either the Swordsmen, Knight, Musketman, Rifleman. Limit one per city.
Serfs - No upkeep, but every four generate an unhappy face.

Despotism:
Scout - Has no nationality and has a good chance of escaping if attacked.
Elite Gaurd - 2/2/1 Warrior. Limit one per city.
Slave Labour - No upkeep.

Republic:
Diplomat - Can create 'dissent' in non-representative governments citizens. This means it adds an unhappy face. Diplomats can only be expelled except as a declaration of war, in which case they are killed. they can also survey enemy cities.
Citizen Gaurd - All adults serve as soldiers at some point. Every two pop points(only the first time you hit 2, 4,6, 8, ...) you get either a Warrior, Spearmen, Swordsmen, Medieval Infantry, Riflemen, Infantry.
Workers - Normal Workers.

Some ideas I had.

Junta would be a fine name for the military dictatorships of Latin America.

 

[Commissar_Yari]

"Or, for Communism, a Shock Worker, a political criminal who can not rejoin cities, but works twice as hard, as the secret police whip him on."

Communism:
KGB Agent - Can gain military plans and city intelligence without paying gold for it.
Gulag - Slave labor, no upkeep."

These are only a good idea if you think communism is a fascist dictatorship that happens to be collectivised, which is everything communism is not (except for the collectivisation.)

I suggest you actually do some research on this political ideology you obviously know nothing about, instead of looking at countries the West called "communist" (soviet russia for example never claimed to have a communist government, that is an oxymoron.) and saying "OMG THAT IS COMMUNISM!!!11"

"Revolutionary Geurilla - No nationality and slightly stronger Geurillas."

This however is actually a very good idea.

 

[Yuri2356]

Perhaps rather than starting in a Despotism, there should be some kind of generic ancient "tribal" gov. that behaves as Despotism does now. Despotism could come into play later to represent modern dictaorships (which, IMO, are fare more effecient than most ancient Imperial systems like Feudalism.) As for the Idea as a whole, I like it. This would certainly add some flavor and appeal to some less popular governments. (I would be a commmunist far more often if I could send waves of revolutionaries at my enemies)

 

[dh_epic]

If the game actually got complex enough to accomodate multiple strategies, I'd like to see some really basic early game governments:

Warlord - rules by brute strength, courage, and influence over the soldiers (war bonuses)
Shaman - rules by wisdom, spirit, and a sense of knowing right from wrong (culture, religion, and science bonuses)
Aristocracy - rules with abundance of money or goods, bartering, and holding everyone in debt (food and trade bonuses)
Chieftain - rules by politicking, a combination of many things (average starting out)

When you have a one-city "civilization", chances are your government is quite simple to start out with. Despotism is probably a big leap forward, if anything.

 

[sir_schwick]

Yes, in theory communism is not Authoritarian. In Theory. I cannot think of practical examples of 'communism' that did not turn into oligarchies. Maybe the socialist states of Scandinavia.

 

[rhialto]

sir Schiwck, pershaps you could reasd up on teh Paris Commune of the 18th centrury for an example.

 

[Ivan the Kulak]

Commissar Yari, you are correct in your comments about Communism, however, what cannot be denied is that the experiment has gone horribly wrong several times throughout its history. I am thinking in particular about Stalinism. Perhaps the Shock Worker could best be available under a new government called Stalinism, an offshoot of Communism, which gives higher production, but with happiness/culture penalties, and elite spies, perhaps also with the resettlement penalties of Fascism, to reflect the mass deportations to the Gulags.

The revolutionary guerilla would be a good unit for regular Communism, which exports social revolution to the masses.

We could use a government called "Socialism" as well, to reflect the fairly successful Socialist governments of Scandinavia and the like.

 

[sir_schwick]

I am not familair with the Paris Commune. Do you have a link?
Also, in general Civ uses assumptions people have about concept 'x' rather than the truth. All I was saying was that communism tends to breed authoritarian oligarchies because of the nature of control. In most of these systems, especially the larger one, someone has to have a large amount of power. Its not that leaders of oligarchies are always evil, its the leader principal which is flawed(Star Trek Classic).

 

[dh_epic]

Fairly successful? I think record lows in crime, high quality of life with health care, and a flourishing sense of free enterprise makes Scandinavian countries world leaders, these days. At least in some senses. But I digress. (Shout outs to all you crazy Vikings!)

It's true that the units should at least moderately reflect the theory of the government, and less so the practice. Guerilla units are actually a healthy dosage of both, as far as communism goes.

 

[sir_schwick]

That is economic Socialism with Democratic(at least representative, right) politics, not the theories of Marx. What is a good example of a non-representative political system of a large nation that has been successful in a Western society? I know that kind of political system is not contrary to Chinese culture.

 

[Ivan the Kulak]

The Paris Commune, IIRC, was a government installed by the French Communards during the Franco-Prussian War. It ended in disaster, if I recollect properly, though not due to any fault of the ideals involved. Perhaps Commissar Yari can post some more info, as I recall this was a fairly interesting period in the history of Paris.

dh_epic: the Norwegians enjoy the benefits of Socialism in part due to the rich oil wealth, this is generously distributed among the Norwegian people. The Swedes have had some problems, though nothing of a nation-breaking nature.

Back on topic: what happens to the UU when you switch governments? Do they all turn into workers, or pumpkins, or something? In CTP when you left Fascism or Ecotopia all your Fascists or Eco-Terrorists disappeared of the face of the earth, not so realistic.

 

[Teabeard]

Back on topic: what happens to the UU when you switch governments? Do they all turn into workers, or pumpkins, or something? In CTP when you left Fascism or Ecotopia all your Fascists or Eco-Terrorists disappeared of the face of the earth, not so realistic.

How about they turn into Barbs/Rebels which are at war against you? This makes sense because this would represent a civil war when you change government.