Agreed we need a civilization with a Viking coat, but it still belong best in ancient.
Having the "Viking coat" civilization unable to unlock Normans and whatever medieval Russian civilization we get "because seafarers belong in exploration" would be a complete design failure. The seafaring = exploration thing is a gross misinterpretation of the exploration age.
And Lonecat, we already have enough trouble finding good Ancient era precursor for actual slavic nations (given how extremely poorly documented and obscure they all are) without going and trying to shoehorn the Venetii into a Germanic path instead, when one of the few things we know about them is they weren't Germanic.
Norse-Denmark (late medieval to Early modern)-Sweden is the simple solution here, and bending over into a pretzel to shoehorn the Goths or worse the Venetii in here is just weird.
Look at what they accomplished all after the end of Antiquity and the begining stage of Medieval Period.
1. Great Viking Rampages that lasted about three centuries
2. Discovery of Continental America (Vinland) by several centuries before Iberian sea kings did. all using Knorrs.
It isn't only about the seafaring gameplay, which it will honestly be restricted because If I'm not mistaken deep sea tiles won't be navigable in the Antiquity Age, thus limiting sea actions.
Vikings were contemporaries with medieval civilizations. Their most famous achievements belonged to that age. In Antiquity, nobody feared the Norse raids.
Sure, but the only European one we have currently is the Normans, who ironically, they are descended from. The other European civ in the same age is Spain which is not based on Medieval Spain.
In my opinion the Norse fall in the category of the Khmer and the Mississippians. Historically speaking they obviously would fall in the Exploration Age, and nobody is denying that. However, gameplay wise, it makes more sense to move them back into Antiquity as the precursor civs of their respective regions, with the Norse being Northern Europe and then branching out to other civs like Denmark, Normans, Kievan Rus'.
And personally, I want them to have a Viking land unit too, which will be absent from an ancient Norse civilization because of the medieval armament. So, if they appear in Antiquity, we will get only a Galley replacement. But a Viking unit (Druzhina or Varangian Guard) might also appear with the Kievan Rus'.
That makes sense to why you would want them in the Exploration Age then. I don't mind them not having a Beserker type unit, considering they've had that every game now, and would rather them just have a military Longship and a Knarr civilian unit. Druzhina would be great for Kievan Rus' though, and I wouldn't mind that as a "spiritual" replacement for the Viking Berserker of past games.
There are at least two confirmed Ancient Civilizations that historically come after the Viking Age (Khmer, Mississippian), and nearly every confirmed Exploration civilization likewise is a post-Viking Age civilization (Spain, Songhai, Mongols, Ming, Inca, Majapahit, Hawaii), with Abbassid and in part Chola being the only exceptions, and the Normans of course are Viking successors (and vanquishers) to begin with,
So, no, I don't accept "well it's after the ancient era so it must be in exploration" as an argument having any sort of validity whatsoever. It's not; it's wishful thinking based on wanting Firaxis to use classical historical periodization, when they clearly are not.
As to "In antiquity, nobody feared Norse raids", please tell me which of the currently in game Exploration era civilization trembled before Norse raids. Because it sure wasn't the Abbasids who were in a completely different league, and it sure wasn't the Normans who largely ended the Viking Age in the British Isles.
It was early Germanic kingdoms and Insular Celtic people that trembled before Vikings, and none of them except maybe the Carolingians are great fit for Exploration (and we're probably not getting a separate Carolingian civ when we already have Karly boy as leader)
I was surprised at the omission of a Viking themed civ, given the addition of navigable rivers.
I think Longships make a ton of sense as a military UU. Extra gold from raiding from navigable rivers? Movement after raiding?
I love the idea of Berserker tradition that Lonecat put forth.
I wonder if you could do a Jarl replacement for the commander, or as a named GP with abilities that lean towards improving raiding.
A tradition—“Voyages of Leif and Erik”—that slightly reduces damage taken by naval units in open water during the Exploration Age would be cool, I think! Give them a chance to have a head start getting to the Distant Lands when they open up!
It was early Germanic kingdoms and Insular Celtic people that trembled before Vikings, and none of them except maybe the Carolingians are great fit for Exploration (and we're probably not getting a separate Carolingian civ when we already have Karly boy as leader)
I agree that Vikings (or old Norse) should be an Antiquity culture. That said, does adding Vikings to Antiquity not grief Illyria's inclusion (since I remember that you liked to see them included)? You can only add so many Naval raider cultures from the same continent into a limited roster...
I mean, if Exploration can survive two naval explorer (Spain/Portugal), and it will, Illyria and Norse can probably coexist too. One more centered on attacking trade routes, the other on attacking improvements. But if they can’t, then I will take another ancient Dalmatian or Balkan or thereabouts people (Dacians!) and let the Norse be in ancient to have their proper unlock options.
I agree that Vikings (or old Norse) should be an Antiquity culture. That said, does adding Vikings to Antiquity not grief Illyria's inclusion (since I remember that you liked to see them included)? You can only add so many Naval raider cultures from the same continent into a limited roster...
Would any other civ in Antiquity be known for sailing up navigable rivers and raiding improvements from the rivers? If not, that could be their niche.
Not to mention they could go into open ocean quicker, though that might be saved for an Antiquity Polynesian civ.
Access to Open Ocean feels like an ability that would break the Antiquity age, and be completely superfluous in the Exploration age. I think that's out of the question, for the Vikings, Antiquity Polynesians, or anyone else, sadly.
Access to Open Ocean feels like an ability that would break the Antiquity age, and be completely superfluous in the Exploration age. I think that's out of the question, for the Vikings, Antiquity Polynesians, or anyone else, sadly.
Well, if they follow the trend of past games, DLC civs are meant to be broken.
Regardless introducing navigable rivers, surely the Norse would get special benefits from using them, in terms of combat at least.
Roskilde and Stockholm have both been spotted as Exploration Age city-states, presumably founded by the Danes and Swedes respectively, meaning that Firaxis sees both Denmark and Sweden as fitting into their idea of what the Exploration Age is, at least for now. (and, provided they're not spotted in any of the previews, they may have put the Norwegians, Icelanders and/or Finns in the Modern Era)
Doesn't make much sense for any "Norse" or "Viking" civ to be in the Exploration Age when both Denmark and Sweden are already present in some way.
Roskilde and Stockholm have both been spotted as Exploration Age city-states, presumably founded by the Danes and Swedes respectively, meaning that Firaxis sees both Denmark and Sweden as fitting into their idea of what the Exploration Age is, at least for now. (and, provided they're not spotted in any of the previews, they may have put the Norwegians, Icelanders and/or Finns in the Modern Era)
Doesn't make much sense for any "Norse" or "Viking" civ to be in the Exploration Age when both Denmark and Sweden are already present in some way.
Part of me feels like they are doing with Sweden what they might be doing with the Ottomans, which is they might be an IP in Exploration but later when released as DLC civs, they would have Sweden be a Modern Age civ.
Stockholm could still exist as an IP in an earlier age.
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