Government Specific UUs

Well, since so many of the jobs being created now are service level jobs, maybe at some point we will see a real movement for unionization of the fast food industry, retail sales, etc. There are already movements afoot to pass "living wage" laws in some areas.

One thing that might spark a serious movement is the health care controversy, many ppl just can't afford to go to the doctor, and this will probably get worse. We have stockholders in HMOs making profits of off people suffering, and that's just plain wrong, to say nothing of all the insurance companies, bureaucrats and the like sucking money out of the system too. At some point change will have to come.

I wonder how well a new government "Globalist Democracy" would fit into Civ, need some traits not in Civ3 to define it well. Tech for acquiring it would be globalism, what UU would this one need?
 
Outsourcing is caused by companies trying to escape heavy regulation and taxation. The government places heavy burdens on businesses which is bad for the economy. This is why business move overseas.

The Minimum wage sounds good, in theory, but it causes rampant inflation and unemployment. An employer who can barely afford to pay his employees the current minimum wage will have to lay people off once the minimum wage is increased. Maybe the employer will even go out of business, which is another thing that is bad for the economy. Plus the prices of everything increases as the money supply increases. You could raise the minimume wage to 100 dollars an hour but inflation will quickly catch up and it will cost $50 for a loaf of bread, so the minimum wage does not profit anyone. They have more money, yes, but the money loses value and their buying power has no net improvement.

It amazes me how some people want huge burdens imposed on business and then complain when the economy does poorly. What do you expect? If you want there to be jobs then don't wage war on those who provide them. :rolleyes:
 
Teabeard, would you be willing to work for $3/hr at McDonalds? Almost sounds like that's what you are suggesting. Minimum wage is designed to prevent the worst kind of exploits that employers can inflict upon workers. In practice, I can't think of very many places that can even hire people at minimum wage, at least where I live. Minimum wage is almost a joke, it is so low, they have not raised it for years. Your comments may apply to small business owners where costs are concerned, but this is far less true where large companies like Wal-Mart and McDonalds are concerned. These kinds of huge companies are able to avoid paying the taxes they should, simply because they can afford legions of lawyers and accountants, and in many cases manipulate the tax law itself, because of the power they possess in the D.C. lobbies.

You are right about the heavy taxation and regulation, there is a large class of people in this country who feed off the producing people, including lawyers, insurers, government employees of all types, etc. These people feed off both the workers and the productive business leaders, I'm not by any means suggesting that we take away the property from hardworking people, even if they are rich, and distribute it among the masses. But what shall we do? Create a neo-Stalinist environment, and hunt down the feeding apparatchiks, and send them off to labor camps? Hmm, maybe not such a good idea, we've seen where that leads. But should we allow unrestrained capitalism, with no penalty for outsourcing, loss of jobs for workers, and the kind of 3rd world unrest that leads to things like 9/11? Not so good either. My opinion is that the system is simply out of balance right now. It may get better, or it may spin completely out of control. I suppose for the moment all we can do is watch, as others before our time have.
 
As interesting as this is, perhaps we should get back to the subject of unique units for Govs?
Perhaps those governmanets that have no specialized military applications could recive special improvments/small wonders like what we already have in the "Secret Police Headquarters" for C3C.
 
Teabeard, at the point where minimum wage becomes 100 dollars per hour (based on the value of the American dollar now) you've moved away from a mixed economy and verge on communism. And that's when the economy falls apart.

But vice versa, a nation where there is no floor, and workers can be starved out for less (you can ALWAYS compete and find someone who will work for less), the nation begins to fall apart. Maybe the "economy" flourishes -- corporate profits go up. But it's not sustainable, because the people won't tolerate it. When quality of life goes straight to hell, that's when disorder goes up. And that's the principal behind Marx's predictions.

The reason America doesn't fall into communism is BECAUSE we have basic worker rights and minimums, and checks and balances.

The reason there is outsourcing is because there are countries where working for 2 bucks an hour doesn't seem like such a bad thing. One key way to solve problems of immigration, outsourcing, all those people who say "they took our jobs"? International worker regulations.

There IS a balance though. You can't spread it too even or else you decrease the value of work and currency. And you can't let it go unregulated, because it's an axiom that the rich get richer and the poor get poorer, which also decreases the value of work, honesty and trust. A society where honest work has very little value is a very dangerous place.
 
Feudalism: Every X rounds a Knight Errant appears randomly in one of your cities... plus the ability to produce "Feudal"/"Chivalric" Knights.

Ha, some people already said, these things would need balance, but multiple UU's plus government specific UU's are great for variety and diversity IMO.
 
Yes, in theory communism is not Authoritarian. In Theory. I cannot think of practical examples of 'communism' that did not turn into oligarchies.

Ok, regarding the Paris Commune, to put it basically it was a period of time in the 1800's where the people of Paris declared the city independant from the rest of France, took control of all methods of distribution, equalised wages and put the worker's in control of factories, businesses, etc. It was incredibly successful and raised living standards, political and social rights until the french army came along, killed everybody, and regained control of Paris. You can find a longer description of the Paris commune at this link, which also has many more links at the bottom if you want further reading:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_Commune

If you want another example of successful communism, a very good one is Spain during it's civil war. Again, living standards were raised along with social and political rights, methods of distribution, factories and businesses were nationalised and put under the workers' control, wages were equalised and it was successful (though there was a little internal debate between the anarchists and communists, it was minimal and was not really a major detriment to the new system or the war effort) until General Franco and his nationalist forces came along with Nazi and Fascist Italian support to crush the revolutionaries and regain control of Spain. More reading and links can be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism_in_Spain (Anarchism and Communism in practice are exactly the same, the difference is in their writing; Anarchists do not recognise the class system, for instance.)

On the comment about Stalin, Stalin was not a communist, nor was his political system in the Soviet Union anything even remotely resembling what is even written theoretically about communism. Stalin was not trying to achieve or experiment with communism, and this is where most uneducated people go wrong when they talk about communism, they equate it with psychotic dictatorship such as the Soviet Union, or North Korea. Though in reality both of these nations did not (still are not, in the case of North Korea) follow communist political theory or ideology. This becomes especially obvious ane evident when looking at the Soviet Union's advocacy of "Socialism In One Country", and their isolationist policies that run in direct conflict with communism, which is strictly internationalist, with no exceptions.

The problem with communism in this past century has never been with it's practice, or with it's theory. It has been with western government campaigns creating this illusion (with most people sadly believing it) that countries like North Korea and the USSR are/were great examples of communism in action, which is not just wrong to an incredible degree, but is simply laughable!

*edit begins here*

Just a note, scandinavian countries such as Norway or Sweden are in no way shape or form socialist. They are simply mixed economies incorporating leftist ideas into capitalism to a more extreme degree than other nations, but they are not socialist nations, as they are not progressing towards communism.

Also, one thing that makes me laugh is the idea that capitalism is 'the perfect system' and that there will never be anything to replace it. Not only is that an incredibly naive thing to believe, it is the attitude the inhabitants of every system in history have taken. 500 years ago, nobody ever took the idea of capitalism seriously, and it was disregarded as a fool's idea as 'it could never work because we need divine royalty to give us direction', and we all know how that supposed 'self evident truth' turned out to be.
 
dh_epic, what about inflation? A person's buying power is more important than how much money they have. Money becomes less valuable the more there is in circulation which is why when the minimum wage is raised so too does inflation rise. There is no net benefit to the minimum wage because inflation will rise to compensate.

3$ doesn't sound like much, but my grandpa told me he remembers when he made a dollar an hour and he thought he was really doing great. Back then a dollar went much farther and you could buy alot more with it. I would not worry if the minimum wage were removed because inflation would stabilize and the free market would set wages. Businesses will compete with each other for your employment and they will offer the best incentives to make sure that you join them instead of their competitor. This is what happens when there are more jobs than there are people to fill them, and this is how it would be if we moved to a Laissez-faire economy.

As you said, most employers already offer wages above minimum wage. You just proved my point that you don't need minimum wage laws to get decent wages. Employers will do so on their own because if they don't you may seek employment elsewhere. No one wants to work where wages are low.
 
Teabeard, when there are more jobs than qualified people to fill them, wages do indeed rise. But that has not been the case in any year in which I have been alive. Left without controls, I fully expect wages would slide downwards.
 
rhialto said:
Teabeard, when there are more jobs than qualified people to fill them, wages do indeed rise. But that has not been the case in any year in which I have been alive. Left without controls, I fully expect wages would slide downwards.


The reason there is a shortage of jobs is because of the mixed economy. You can blame outsourcing, but what causes outsourcing? Outsourcing is caused by businesses trying to escape the heavy hand of government regulation and taxation. So if you cut taxes and reduce regulations the economy will grow and there will be a surplus of jobs which means higher wages.

The fact that few employers pay the minimum wage now proves my point, though. If your theory were correct that if there were no controls then people would be paid less and less then why is it that so many employers are paying above minimum wage?
 
Let7s just say that the things that affect pay rates are more complicated than you or I are qualified to give correct reliable information on.
 
Teabeard said:
3$ doesn't sound like much, but my grandpa told me he remembers when he made a dollar an hour and he thought he was really doing great.

LOL. Sure, when you could buy a new house for $10,000 and bread was 25 cents a loaf a dollar an hour was a great wage. The problem today is that while the base wage unskilled workers receive is enough to pay basic rent and food costs, other sectors of the economy have really outpaced the basic living wage, health care is now astronomically expensive, and they cannot think about buying a new car for $30,000 (gotta pay those protected worker classes) or a house for $200,000. With uncontrolled illegal immigration, there is ever increasing competition for American workers at the bottom tiers of society for these existence level jobs. And don't believe for 1 second that if it was completely legal to hire illegal immigrants and the minimum wage was abolished that companies like McDonalds wouldn't be hiring these desperate people to wash dishes and cook fries at $3.00/hr. This is both exploitation of the illegal immigrant and the American worker who has his job taken away.

Commissar Yari: whatever his failings, Stalin WAS a Communist, in practice Communism tends often to work out differently from the intellectualist theories it springs from. Stalin believed that sooner or later the West would move against the USSR (and boy, was he right), and thus felt it necessary to collectivise and industrialize in order to insure that the Soviet Union would possess the means to drive back the invaders. While his methods were harsh, he did insure the survival of the USSR past 1941. Your point about his isolationist stance is true, Stalin did abruptly change his position on this during or shortly after the Revolution; as I recall this was one of Trotsky's outstanding grievances with Stalin, which led to Trotsky's ouster and ultimate assassination in 1940.

NOW: Back on topic: what would be a good UU for a globalist or capitalist type government: maybe an international banker? Could franchise cities a la CTP? Ppl didn't care much for that though, IIRC. Maybe a globalist government could have the inherent ability to establish corporate branches in weaker civs thru the diplo screen, this would cost gold and give the franchised city 1 happy citizen, plus the franchising civ could receive a small amount of gpt per turn from the city, and with discrete resource units, perhaps a small amount of luxuries in trade. The other civ can kick out the franchise, however this causes 2 unhappy faces in the city for several turns. The franchising civ must already have at least 1 active trade route with the other civ, in order that its corporate people can get in and do their thing.

I would also like to see a Caliphate government for some civs in ancient times, maybe they get a special cheaper horseman like the Ansar warrior. Maybe also give us back Fundamentalism for modern times, gives a weak rifle armed foot unit, cheap to build and no upkeep. No match for modern units headon, but able run in hordes across borders and cause lots of distraction.
 
It's all relative. If McDonald's uses the minimum wage, then work that's more difficult would need to pay more than McDonald's does, otherwise people would just say "forget working as a secretary, I could make the same amount of money at McDonald's". But if McDonald's can pay less than 5 bucks an hour, then being a secretary could be 5 dollars an hour. These things don't happen in a vacuum, they are quite systematic.

Laissez Faire capitalism -- that is the complete idealized form of capitalism -- is as dangerous an ideology as communism. It presumes basics about human nature that have not yet been corrected (and some say it's impossible to correct). Both are victim to corruption, albeit different kinds. Perfect communism assumes perfect cooperation, which we do not have -- some people would put in more effort than other people, and there's a chance we'd all start slacking off, or taking more than our fair share for the same amount of work as somebody else. Perfect capitalism assumes a perfect meritocracy, which we do not have -- we have rampant nepotism, prejudice, and certain advantages that wealth affords you, hence the poor get poorer.

Until those aspects are corrected at the most fundamental levels of human psychology, there need to be checks and balances to ensure what we consider "fair". A system that spirals into greater and greater unfairness is unsustainable.

At any rate, for the sake of a game, only some governments should get UUs. Some governments are already great the way they are, almost too great, like democracy (for the sake of the game).
 
I think one reason the corporate warfare units were so derided in ctp was tht they were unlimited in use. Every government type could have them. If their use was limited to a "corporate government" type, and something done to improve teh dynamics, it might have worked better.
 
dh_epic said:
Not that I agree with communism, but I agree with many of the things that Marx otherwise had to say. Capitalism -- if left to regulate itself -- would spin further and further out of control (or into greater control, depending on how you look at it). Wages would keep falling as companies compete with each other. How do you think an American company would compete with a company working out of Indonesia? Drop the minimum wage substantially.

Almost everything Marx wrote was BS. He based his analysis on the labor theory of value. But the labor theory of value is false. He believed in economic determinism, which is bunk. He ignored a multitude of other factors. He ignored religion, ideology, race, among other factors.

It is quite obvious why Marx was ignoring those other factors. He had an agenda. He wanted to pit the classes against each other. He wanted nations to destroy each other with class warfare.

He also claimed that Communist revolutions would occur in the most industrialized countries. But this is not what actually happened.

It is not true that wages would keep falling without government regulations. In the US the minimum wage is so low that for the vast majority of jobs it is effectively as if there were no minimum wage. Yet, we don't see the wages falling as you claim. Wages can easily rise under a free market system. There is no reason why in a free market system the wages would inevitably tend to drop in perpetuity. This is a ludicrous notion.

You say wages would fall because companies compete with each other. On the contrary, it is competition by companies that can keep the wages up. They want to hire the best workers, so they need to pay more or their rivals will hire the best workers.

But we have laws to prevent this -- some people say to our detriment, but I see making less than 5 dollars an hour nothing but a bad thing, no matter how many people try to tell me that "it would be good for the economy".

That is not the main reason wages don't fall in the US. If there were no minimum wage, only so many American workers would be willing to work for such a wage and do the work that is "outsourced". They would just work in other jobs that pay more, just as they do now.

The minimum wage exists more for sentimental/political reasons than for real economic reasons. In fact it can be hurtful to the economy because it often has the side-effect of causing unemployment.
 
dh_epic said:
But vice versa, a nation where there is no floor, and workers can be starved out for less (you can ALWAYS compete and find someone who will work for less), the nation begins to fall apart. Maybe the "economy" flourishes -- corporate profits go up. But it's not sustainable, because the people won't tolerate it. When quality of life goes straight to hell, that's when disorder goes up. And that's the principal behind Marx's predictions.

You are wrong. For most jobs in the US it is as if there were no minimum wage, yet their quality of life has not gone straight to hell.

You fail to realize that the minimum wages raise the quality of life for those who have a job but they also cause unemployment because they increase labor costs for employers. Thus, minimum wage laws do not really improve the quality of life, except under unusual circumstances. That's because the unemployment they cause is usually worse than the increase in the wages that they do increase.

It is precisely the strong labor regulations in European countries that are the cause of their high unemployment (in addition to the mass immigration).

Being unemployed is worse than having a low wage. So why isn't there revolution in Europe? Simple, because the unemployed are bribed into not rebelling against the system with the generous benefits of the European countries.


The reason there is outsourcing is because there are countries where working for 2 bucks an hour doesn't seem like such a bad thing. One key way to solve problems of immigration, outsourcing, all those people who say "they took our jobs"? International worker regulations.

That would never work. The cost of living is so different between different countries. Making third world countries have the same minimum wage as the US would be like raising the US minimum wage to $100 per hour. It would be a complete economic disaster for the countries in question.
 
Commissar_Yari said:
Yes, in theory communism is not Authoritarian. In Theory. I cannot think of practical examples of 'communism' that did not turn into oligarchies.

Ok, regarding the Paris Commune, to put it basically it was a period of time in the 1800's where the people of Paris declared the city independant from the rest of France, took control of all methods of distribution, equalised wages and put the worker's in control of factories, businesses, etc. It was incredibly successful and raised living standards, political and social rights until the french army came along, killed everybody, and regained control of Paris. You can find a longer description of the Paris commune at this link, which also has many more links at the bottom if you want further reading:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_Commune

Raised living standards? How could the living standards have been raised during the short of period of time during which they ruled? Geez, they were not even able to consolidate their power.

The Paris Commune was not organized by "the people". If one looks to see who was behind it one inevitably finds the influence of freemasons and of a certain ethnic group which shall remained un-named in the interests of political correctness, although you can enlighten yourselves about its role in communism here:

http://www.revisionisthistory.org/communist.html
http://users.cyberone.com.au/myers/talmon.html
http://users.cyberone.com.au/myers/ginsberg.html
http://www.csulb.edu/~kmacd/books-Preface.html
http://www.theoccidentalquarterly.com/vol3no2/km-understanding.html
http://www.csulb.edu/~kmacd/books.html

Lest you disbelieve, here you have it confirmed from none other than Winston Churchill:

http://www.fpp.co.uk/bookchapters/WSC/WSCwrote1920.html

Now, if communism truly represents "the people" how come this certain ethnic group was so preponderant among its leadership? Could it just be that communism was merely a gigantic sham by which this ethnic group seized power over the vast Russian empire and then used the state-party apparatus to enslave and biologically exterminate the other ethnic groups? Was the atheism found in communism merely a cloak with which to destroy the religions and cultures of other ethnic groups?

If you want another example of successful communism, a very good one is Spain during it's civil war. Again, living standards were raised along with social and political rights, methods of distribution, factories and businesses were nationalised and put under the workers' control, wages were equalised and it was successful (though there was a little internal debate between the anarchists and communists, it was minimal and was not really a major detriment to the new system or the war effort) until General Franco and his nationalist forces came along with Nazi and Fascist Italian support to crush the revolutionaries and regain control of Spain. More reading and links can be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism_in_Spain (Anarchism and Communism in practice are exactly the same, the difference is in their writing; Anarchists do not recognise the class system, for instance.)

Again, how long were they in power to have been able to raise living standards? I find it a bit odd that the only examples of allegedly successful communist societies that you can provide were in power for such a short period of time that one can hardly imagine they had any time to change their societies. The fact is that communism is unquestionably an economic disaster. Even the Chinese "communists" do not really believe in the Marxist economic dogma anymore.

But back to Spain, the communists in Spain were murdering priests and nuns. The goal of the communists in Spain was to subject Spain to Soviet domination. The goal of international communism was (and still is) the destruction of Western civilization.
 
NP300, many inaccuracies and misinterpretations on your part, but here I go anyway. I think you raise valid points about the value of the dollar and inflation, but you fail to see the bigger picture.

Nepotism is rampant, and so are dozens of advantages that come from being wealthy. You also ignore the biases and prejudices of those who might have wealth. The hard working would not get ahead in a completely unregulated system unless you had a perfect meritocracy.

As such, in an unregulated society, the wealth would end up concentrated in fewer and fewer hands. The rich get richer, the poor get poorer, you need money to get money, and all those great addages that you can find plenty of confirmation for. Which leads me to the most lasting impact of Marx's theory -- not the predictions that didn't come true, or the fact that he ruled out the impact of all factors other than economy. The impact comes from this thesis: that when wealth ends up in fewer and fewer hands, and there is a sense that hard work is not rewarded, and unfairness IS rewarded... well that's when more and more people turn to crime and deviance.

It may start with some robberies, and may move to murder. But in a completely unregulated capitalism, Marx says it would eventually become so lopsided that the uncoordinated crime would turn into revolution -- and I'm not curious to see how that would actually work out.

That's why a mixed economy just makes sense. Whether that's 20/80, 80/20, or 50/50, that's completely up for debate and I guess it depends on what you consider an optimal level of crime and deviance.
 
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