GR9 - Going for Space

GR9 - 1250AD - THE SAVE

The cities look in good shape! Some minor MM-ing.

IBT
Madrid Nat Epic -> Market
Barcelona Crossbow -> Crossbow

turn 1 - 1260AD
The missionary succesfully spreads Hinduism in Madras, Court now due in 4.
Kolhalpur is defended by 2 Archers.
Science up to 50% (at -7 gpt)

IBT
Barcelona Crossbow -> Aquaduct

turn 2 - 1270AD
Got a Great Scientist to join the Great Artist. Stop to discuss starting a golden age or using it for a science building.
Golden Age it is. :)

IBT
Seville Sword -> Monastry
Mucia Worker -> Temple

turn 3 - 1280AD
Zzz

IBT
Optics come in, start Feudalism (to get to Education quickly)*

turn 4 - 1290AD
Switch Seville to Caravel, the Monastry will be finished later.

turn 5 - 1300AD
Move the new troops north, in preparation of the next hit.

turn 6 - 1310AD
The settler is ready, start another Library.

turn 7 - 1320AD
The Caravel is ready, too bad I didn't think to start a Scout since we don't have any.
I'll start an Explorer in Marid, followed by a Caravel. it can explore east.

turn 8 - 1330AD
Zzzz

IBT
Feudalism comes in, start Guilds.

turn 9 - 1340AD
We meet the Inca. They have only Civil Service over us. Eight cities in total.

turn 10 - 1350AD
The Golden Age is over but we can still keep the science rate at 60%.
The FP will be ready in 4, and the Great Library is still not built. The Inca still lack Literature, maybe the others aren't so smart either.

The future
Like I mentioned the Caravel currently being built in Madrid is for exploring The East. A settler is ready to found a new city to fill up the 'hole' in former India. Not necessarily in its current position though. It doesn't matter too much, it'll be there for beaker production.
I take it we want to attack India again soon? :D

*This is where I stopped making notes of the city production, so don't worry we got something built in our GA! :yeah:
 
I took my turn.

We attacked Ghandi again in 1420 AD. We capture Lahore and have a strike force ready to enter India. We have been building Conquistadors which seem a good unit (knight replacement) - they are just now reaching the front lines.

I left some units unmoved on the front so the next player can decide his attack and what he wants to use and what should defend. Units further back have all been moved toward the front.

We are going for engineering and will get it in 1 turn which will speed our movement.

I will include a picture of one of our larger stacks (the one in Bangalore). We have a secondary stack nearby as well.

GR9_1450AD.jpg
 
Finished the Indians in 1520. RNG wasn't entirely with me, but we just had too many units for them in the end.

Research: got Engineering, Civil Service, Paper. Next up, I'd recommend Education so we can start on Universities.

Buildings: Hagia Sophia is almost done in Barcelona. Barca can't grow right now - I suggest chaining some irrigation there now that we can. CHs everywhere. our economy isn't looking too good (at 100% sci right now from war spoils - this will have to go down to ~50% from next turn).

Civics: Adopted Representation (since we now control the Pyramids in Delhi, we have access to all the Government civics) and Bureaucracy. The latter was a no-brainer, as we were still in Barbarism. The former will be good until the latter stages, when we'll probably want to switch to Universal Suffrage.

Great People: A Prophet, joined to Barca.
 
With the new towns we really need courthouses and probably the FP in Indian lands. I would make that our top priority.

Roster:
Greebley
Space Oddity
Eldar - Just Played
Shillen - Up
ThERat- On Deck
Gyathaar

I am also thinking we want to work on our economy. We are large enough I think we will be able to out-research the AI once we get things up and running.
 
I have it. I'll probably play tomorrow. Thanks for taking care of the Indians for me. :) I could do with a nice 10 turns of peaceful building.
 
Pre-turn: Ok my task is to improve this:

GR9_economy_1525AD_1.JPG


I first note that we have a ton of military. My first task is to delete the 4 warriors we have sitting around. I ship some of the units from the north to the south. We still have military units being built. Sure it sucks to waste the production on them but what good are they going to do us? All they will do is drive our unit support costs up. 4 caravels is a bit much also. Ok I check diplomacy. Everyone hates us because we're trading with Mansa Musa. I know he has the tech lead but I'd rather ally with the other 4 leaders and screw Mansa Musa. I cancel open borders with Mansa Musa. I gift Philosophy to Mao and sign open borders with him. I gift Philosophy to Monty. He still won't give us open borders but our relations should improve soon if we avoid trading with Mansa. I do the same with Huayna Capac. I gift Music to Tokugawa. Each of these gifts nets us +4 relations with them and we still have a sizeable tech lead (which I have no doubt we'll extend) so it's no problem to do it.

Ok I'll go city by city and mark my changes:
Madrid: Building a Hindu Mandir, which won't be useful to it for many turns. But it has nothing else useful to build. So I change tiles around to max food/commerce. I also hire another merchant so it has 2 merchants and 2 scientists hired. It's also growing in 8 turns with Hindu Mandir in 17 turns. It's likely going to switch to a University before it finishes anyway. Keep in mind once we get astronomy we'll be trading for resources and happiness probably won't even be a problem, not that it is right now, despite us only having 3 happy resources.

Barcelona: This city is stagnant. This is our production powerhouse of course. It has a hill tile it's not even working though due to lack of food. Getting irrigation down here is high priority. It's building Hagia Sophia, due in 2 turns. Sounds good. The tiles being worked are fine, not much else we can do with them with the food shortage.

Seville: Building a longbowmen. Cancelled. This city has nothing really useful to build either. Seems we either didn't optimize what techs we chose as we went or we researched too slowly. I'm not used to having cities with nothing to build. Since it has nothing to build I set it to max growth/commerce. I also give the iron tile away to Salamanca. We'll see if it has a use for it when we get to that city. Seville now has 6 food surplus and generates 30 base commerce. Changed to build Hindu missionary. We have 5 cities without Hinduism in them.

Cordoba: Ok this city is not in good shape. It's one tile from the coast so has 2 useless coast tiles. It has 3 useless desert tiles. And due to overlap it's giving up 3 tiles to Murcia. That's almost 50% of the tiles lost. It also has unimproved tiles that it was working. I would rather halt growth with a specialist than work a 2 food, 0 hammers, 0 commerce tile, let alone the 1 food, 1 hammer tile. I steal the gem tile away from Murcia. Murcia doesn't even have a library built yet. Cordoba can make much better use of that commerce. I leave it building the market now that it's working the gems. I hire an engineer and a priest and stagnate growth until a worker can improve the tiles. We get 3 extra beakers for each specialist with representation, let's make use of it.

Toledo: Building a conquistador with no barracks? I thought we went over this one already? :smoke: These overlapping tiles are disturbing me. If I had settled this I would have built one city one tile NW of Toledo and not built Salamanca at all, but c'est la vie. Toledo is set to build a market. Not that useful but it also suffers from the nothing good to build syndrome. I change it to a Hindu missionary. I work all the coast tiles + the village and town and a couple forests for production/growth. I'd like to chop one of those forests and irrigate it along with the other plains tile that's currently unimproved.

Santiago: Now this is a super town. But all that irrigation is wasteful. We must get some more cottages built here. But our workers have so much other stuff to do at the moment. It could be an ok great person producer with all the irrigation but IMO that's a waste. First of all it's not super food location, decent, but not super. Second of all it has all those nice hills for production. If we turned it into a great person city it would be wasting a lot of tiles. It's building a christian monastery which is fine with me. It's set to max growth which is a good idea until it his happy limit. I only move one tile off of an irrigated grassland onto the grassland cottage. All these grassland river tiles..this can be an amazing science city if we get all cottages built.

Salamanca: Ok this city is unhappy and building a hindu temple due in 3. I'll queue up a forge after that which will net us another happy face. I work the iron tile I took from Seville and also steal the hill tile from Toledo since it wasn't using it. Temple due in 3 turns. Generating some decent commerce as well.

Murcia: Ok this guy needs some serious worker improvements. Stagnant since I took the gem tile away and building a lighthouse, due in 4. It will then be able to grow and will have some tiles that are worth working.

Valencia: Desert city. I can stagnate this city and get the courthouse in 13 turns instead of 19. That would lower expenses by 3. It will take 14 turns to grow anyway and will only have coastal tiles it can work. I'll stagnate it until it builds the courthouse, then it can go back to growing. I think that's the bigger benefit in the long-run.

Bombay: This city badly needs irrigationg. It's going nowhere fast. It has some nice silk tiles to work but it can't work them due to lack of food. I will send a worker down to this city pronto. Hell I might spend my whole turn just moving workers to cities that need help. :D Otherwise I fear we'll just improve the cities the workers are currently at and neglect the ones that have no workers near them.

Madras: Another glorious city location, easily rivaling Santiago. I cancel the market in this city. It has much better things to build. I would build a library before a market (it's cheaper and we're not going to drop science below 50% so the library would net more than the market would). Although the market would give a happy face. But instead I'm going to build a forge for extra hammers + a happy face. Then a library or cheapo temple can come afterwards. I like early forges as it lets them build all the other buildings faster. I set it to max growth for the moment until it grows in 2 turns then I'll switch some food to hammers.

Zaragoza: Needs a courthouse more than a lighthouse. It has enough tiles to work for now without working coastal tiles. Our maintenance costs are so high that courthouses are huge bonuses. I'll finish the lighthouse only because it's 3 turns from completion and I'll queue the courthouse behind it. If anyone knows the rate at which partially built buildings decay in hammers I would love to know so I can better make these decisions. I don't think it's very fast or even noticeable but I'm not sure.

Bangalore: Another city needing irrigation. It's building a harbor. It's a good choice over a courthouse this time as it nets +2 commerce whereas a courthouse would net +3 gold. The courthouse is 50% more expensive to build, though and commerce can be multiplied by buildings. The trade routes will net much more commerce once we get astronomy as well. This city looks good. I move one tile off of a forest onto a grassland hamlet. Lose one hammer, gain 2 commerce and the hamlet will grow. It's doing alright on production anyway.

Pamplona: I would have built this town one tile to the northwest. It would pick up a grassland tile that's not being used by any city right now, while reducing overlap slightly. It would also net a hill tile to work for more production. I don't like founding on top of hills unless it's a poor food region. Hills are valuable tiles. This town will be short on production, even with watermills, although it can borrow the copper tile from Madras when Madras isn't using it. It's set to build a library which isn't a bad choice since the maintenance cost is only 5 and this will be a good science city if it can get enough science buildings built.

Lahore: Will expand in 4 turns and grab the clams. I search for a workboat or some city building a workboat but I don't find any. Set Lahore to build a workboat. It doesn't need a lighthouse yet anyway. It has a few grasslands it isn't even using yet. It's working two hills with cottages on them. I would mine over at least one of those so it has some production, but that's not a high priority task for our workers just yet.

Karachi: Pretty crummy town. Needs irrigation and is a long ways from getting any. It also needs border expansion so it can work the grassland towns to the east. Now that I think about it quite a few torns need Hinduism still.

Kolhapur: This city should have been razed. It's in a terrible location. 1 tile away from coast with severe overlap and several desert tiles. If we ever go to war with a civ I suggest we gift this city to them before declaring and raze it. I truly wish for a delete city option. This city needs bordere expansion to grab corn and needs irrigation as well. It's even farther from irrigation than Karachi though. Set to build courthouse which is fine with me. This city ain't doing much for a while.

Delhi: Resisting. Not much I can say except it looks like a great city location of course since it's a capital. I will probably start it off with a granary and max food once it's out of resistance.

Hyderabad: Needs a workboat. I take the tile off the fish and put it on the plains forest to get it done in 10 turns. Another crummy city but paying for itself which is all that matters. That great lighthouse is helping us a ton, too bad it will be obsolete with astronomy.

Jaipur: Holy overlap batman. I didn't know AI's went that crazy with overlapping their own cities usually. Oh well at least they found the coast for once. This one is also resisting.

Hmm our economy improved a little already:

GR9_economy_1525AD_2.JPG


(1) 1530AD: Caravel and worker movements.

(2) 1535AD: Barcelona completes the Hagia Sophia.

GR9_HagiaSophia.JPG


Haha I love it we build roads in one turn now. Barcelona starts Hindu Missionary.

(3) 1540AD: Out of cash. Science down to 50%. Education in 2 turns. Keep in mind since we have so many cities, even though our science slider is set low it doesn't mean we're researching slow. We're not researching fast either, but it's not bad at all.

(4) 1545AD: Find a goody hut on the uninhabited island. Lots of health resources but no sign of happiness ones. We'll have to pick up our explorer and pop it. Delhi ends resistance and is starving already since it doesn't have expanded borders.

(5) 1550AD: Hinduism spread in Pamplona. Start research on Banking. Banks will help us a ton. After that we can get Liberalism and Economics as our free tech. I queue up some universities. Switch Madrid back to production mode to get the university done quicker. Banking due in 4 turns. I guess our research is pretty decent if we're pulling in 4 turn techs. Can't trade Education to anyone except Tokugawa who has nothing to offer.

(6) 1555AD: Not much.

(7) 1560AD: Not much.

(8) 1565AD: Find another hut on the island to the north of the Incans. Missionary fails in Delhi. :( Tokugawa has Printing Press now. Hmm maybe I should have done liberalism before banking. Most of our cities are too busy building universities to build a bank anyway. I don't want to miss the free tech from Liberalism but then we needed banking for the free great merchant for economics.

(9) 1570AD: Mansa Musa learns Astronomy and wants to trade health resources. I say no since we're not trading with him. But I note that he has 4 different happiness resources and 2 health resources to trade us. And we have an equal number of multiple resources trade him. But I still stick with it that we shouldn't ally with Mansa if it pisses every other civ in the game off. We learn Banking. I adopt Mercantilism until we get Economics. I change a lot of our free specialists to merchants. Start on Liberalism which will take 5 turns. Ouch Huayna Capac has Economics. Say goodbye to the free merchant. We should still take economics with our free tech though because that extra trade route will be huge for our research speed.

(10) 1575AD: Huayna Capac's golden has begun. Hinduism spreads in Delhi.

Post-turn: Well our economy improved quite a bit but only due to growth really. I didn't get a whole lot built. But there are several universities only a few turns from completion and once we get some banks in those cities as well our economy should improve drastically. I'm still working on getting the irrigation up towards the north. I would suggest trying to convert Tokugawa and Qin Shi Huang to Hinduism as they didn't found one of their own. Suggested research path: Finish Liberalism, take economics as free tech, then research astronomy.

Here's our economy now:

GR9_economy_1575AD.JPG
 
Ok team decision. All the AI's hate Mansa Musa. So trading with him nets us a -4 modifier with them all and we probably won't make them like us for the rest of the game. Meanwhile Mansa Musa seems to be the top in score and has the most techs. He's also the first to astronomy and willing to trade us 6 different resources, including 4 happiness ones.

Personally, I think it's worth it to disown Mansa Musa and make friends with the other civs. I would rather have 4 allies and 1 enemy than 4 enemies and 1 ally, even if the one ally is the strongest AI. But that's another reason not to go in league with Mansa. If we do all our trading only with him it will just accelerate his tech pace and make it harder for us to win the game.

This has to be a team decision and everyone has to know not to trade with Mansa though. It only takes one person to make a trade and the negative modifier with the other civs resets back to -4 again. That is, of course, unless the other AI's start making friends with Mansa. Then it's a whole new ballgame. But right now they all dislike him still.
 
I agree with you Shillen,

maybe at one point of time we should try and slow Mansa by warring a little.
For now it's improving the economy and getting faster research. And spreading our religion would help as well.

got it.
 
save

Pre-Turn
well, checking the relations we still have a -4 modifier for having traded with the wrong guy
Madrid will churn out a GP next turn
cities look good, but courts and unis will boost us a lot
we also want more missionaries later on

1. 1580AD
we got a great artist, not good, he would go for drama, not useful
so make him join Madrid
spread our religion to Jaipur

2. 1585AD
as usual in those games I am playing, 1 turn before us Incas get liberalism, there goes our free tech

3. 1590AD
well, we have liberalism, but one turn too late
of course Mansu Musa has the tech now as well and we can't trade anything
go for gunpowder since nobody has that, maybe we can get economics that way
sell our WM and we suddenly have 750gold
increase science to 90% and we get gunpowder in 2 turns at -159gpt
Delhi's borders expanded and now it can work real good tiles

4. 1595AD
nothing much happening, workers irrigate

IT Monte comes and demands 220gold tribute, sorry my friend
we get gunpowder

5. 1600AD
at least the science gamble worked, nobody has gunpowder
sell Incans corn, doesn't help they still don't part with economics, we need to self research it then
reduce science to 60%

6. 1605AD
everyone dislikes us, I don't know what we can do to get open borders

7. 1610AD
Chinese now trade with us and I exchange theology for drama

8. 1615AD
we get economics, go fior chemistry, we would like to get biology next for faster growth
go for a big change in civis, free speech (save 20gpt upkeep) , free market and cast system for specialists
our income immediately shoots up 36gpt
discover that Chinese have astronomy, get it for gunpowder and banking
increase research to 70% at -12gpt, change my mind and go for nationalism

IT Incans now demand theology, since I want to see whether this will have any posistive effect, cave
well, he is still annoyed and won't even give open borders, so much about that
but he has nationalism I can see

9. 1620AD
nothing happening, sell Toku corn for 11gpt

10. 1625AD
Barelona has a bank now and our income is positve at 70% science
Incan now agree to trade cows, give them sheep for that
trade Monte silks for 7gpt to make him happier as well

we need one more uni for Oxford, it will be done in 2

gr91625.jpg
 
some comments:

1. we have 2 missionaries, one on our shores the other on a caravel. My plan was to convert those Incan cites, but that plan is obviously foiled since we can't get open borders

2. I am very angry with myself :shakehead :wallbash:
If I had traded the map at the beginning of my turnset, we would have gotten the free tech. I hope this will not matter on our way to space.

3. Our towns are developing nicely, but we will have happiness problems soon. Unfortunately, the only really willing AI to trade is Mansa Musa. He is already lagging behind due to the fact that everyone boycotts him. I don't know whether it was the correct decision to not trade with him...
 
Who did you sell the map to? The only one who had a lot of money was Mansa Musa...

The other civs will like us in time provided we don't trade with Mansa. Getting that -4 penalty to go away takes many many turns. But they should sign open borders before it reaches 0. Except maybe Tokugawa as he's very stingy about open borders.

We do have open borders with China and that's where our missionaries should go first.

Missing Liberalism was entirely my fault. I should have known since the AI's had banking already that they would be getting liberalism soon and researched it before Banking. Oh well. Our research is picking up fast and I have no doubt we'll leave the AI's in the dust.

I'm glad the Incans and Chinese were willing to trade resources with us. I was afraid our relations with them would spoil that. Trading resources should improve relations as well. I also have a feeling that the more you help them the faster the -4 trading with enemies decreases, but I don't know for sure. I have messed around with relations a lot in civ4 so I have a pretty good understanding of how they work but not a perfect understanding. I do think managing relations well is a huge help in just about any game.

edit:
IT Monte comes and demands 220gold tribute, sorry my friend

I would have accepted this. We can't afford more diplo hits.

IT Incans now demand theology, since I want to see whether this will have any posistive effect, cave
well, he is still annoyed and won't even give open borders, so much about that
but he has nationalism I can see

Notice he traded resources on turn 10. Accepting his demands definitely helped and was the right decision..
 
Did you send the explorer after the goody huts? I might have screwed that one up for you. I had the explorer in a west coast city with a caravel about 1 turn away from picking him up. I think I fortified the explorer though so you probably didn't notice. I should have left him active.
 
I am away from home today and wont be able to play till late tomorrow, so if someone wants to swap with me then go ahead :)
 
Who did you sell the map to? The only one who had a lot of money was Mansa Musa...
:blush: Mansa Musa gave us 300gold for their WM, I initially thought this isn't considered a trade and later realized my mistake. Well, things are improving slowly, but honestly I don't think we will have any issue to win this ourselves

We do have open borders with China and that's where our missionaries should go first.
Yes, the caravel is sailing along Incan empire towards China, but it will take a long long while before we reach that place
 
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