Granary Problem?
- Thread starter Smirk
- Start date
angeleyes
mood indigo
After you complete your granary, the granary first must get filled
before it get's its function.
Asperge
before it get's its function.
Asperge
ZippyRiver
Prince
- Joined
- Nov 27, 2005
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- 454
Yeah. I tried that too. Doesn't work. Stagnate your growth 1 food away until the granary is built, and you get an empty granary. It starts tracking half the food once it is built, but not the accumulation of food prior to completion.
Which begs the question: When will the granary do its listed function? What if you have 3/4th of your meter filled, will it reset to zero on growth? What about half, 1/3rd, 1/4th, 1 food? At no point will there ever be a question of no micromanagement, if even 1 food stored means you have to completely fill the granary then you will micromanage not to waste food and time it right *after* growth, or before half, etc.
Your stated reason is one I would be inclined to believe as that was an apparent goal with civ4, but as I've shown that reduction of micromanagement when looked at naively has now created much, MUCH, more micromanagement, and unneeded complexity. Its intuitive for a person to want to make a storage building when they have lots of stuff to store.
I think its going to frustrate and annoy far more people since its clearly not doing what its stated to do (until some future unknown time). This is just bad design that upon completion it doesn't do what it says, I immediately get the effects of a libary, forge and everything else, not a granary? Odd.
Your stated reason is one I would be inclined to believe as that was an apparent goal with civ4, but as I've shown that reduction of micromanagement when looked at naively has now created much, MUCH, more micromanagement, and unneeded complexity. Its intuitive for a person to want to make a storage building when they have lots of stuff to store.
I think its going to frustrate and annoy far more people since its clearly not doing what its stated to do (until some future unknown time). This is just bad design that upon completion it doesn't do what it says, I immediately get the effects of a libary, forge and everything else, not a granary? Odd.
ZippyRiver
Prince
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"Usually" when I am building a granary, I micro the workers so that it is as close to stagnate as possible. Depends on the situation. Sometimes faster growth is more important. I actually like the way it is set up now. Trying to time the completion was always a pita.
You DO get the benefits for the granary immediatly. It stores half the food produced as soon as it is completed. When you are building a library, you do not get beakers added to your science while building it, so why would you get to store food for future growth when no granary is present.
If it takes 100 food to grow, and you have 50 food present when the granary is completed, 25 units of food from the food produced after completion will be saved for future growth. It's not at "some future unknown time".
The alternative would be that a city would not accumulate ANY food for growth until a granary is built as it would spoil from lack of storage. Any surplus food produced would be lost to waste. Which might be the better way to look at it anyway. Say I produce an extra 10 food per turn, but I lose half of that to spoilage. Building a granary removes the spoilage penalty. But it would be silly to put the old spoiled food in the new granary.
You DO get the benefits for the granary immediatly. It stores half the food produced as soon as it is completed. When you are building a library, you do not get beakers added to your science while building it, so why would you get to store food for future growth when no granary is present.
If it takes 100 food to grow, and you have 50 food present when the granary is completed, 25 units of food from the food produced after completion will be saved for future growth. It's not at "some future unknown time".
The alternative would be that a city would not accumulate ANY food for growth until a granary is built as it would spoil from lack of storage. Any surplus food produced would be lost to waste. Which might be the better way to look at it anyway. Say I produce an extra 10 food per turn, but I lose half of that to spoilage. Building a granary removes the spoilage penalty. But it would be silly to put the old spoiled food in the new granary.
ZippyRiver said:
Exactly. I like the new way they're doing it as it seems to both reduces micro management and it feels more realistic as well =).
Although I wouldn't be surprised if they described how it works wrong in either the Civilopedia or the Manual
.I think you two are missing the point, at what point does the granary work (that is upon growth)? It clearly doesn't if you are close to filled and then grow, say 1-10 food remaining you end up with zero upon growth. You aren't even getting half of what you've grown since the granary has been completed.
Thus there must be some point where it kicks in and all this change has done was change where exactly one has to micromanage to get the most effect. At least before you could easily micromanage it based on completion, now you have to figure out where it will start to store. In other words, there is NO change, you still will micromanage to a certain food level before completion of the granary.
Thus there must be some point where it kicks in and all this change has done was change where exactly one has to micromanage to get the most effect. At least before you could easily micromanage it based on completion, now you have to figure out where it will start to store. In other words, there is NO change, you still will micromanage to a certain food level before completion of the granary.
angeleyes
mood indigo
I did some experimentation and came to the conclusion that the granary
functions good and simple, and that there is no need for micromanagement.
When your granary is ready, the food you produce extra will not only be put in grow, but the same amount will be put into your granary.
Example: city needs 39 food to grow;
1. granary ready, food:29/39 =>when city grows you will have 10 food in your granary,
2. granary ready, food:34/39 =>5 food in granary when city grows,
3. granary ready, food:09/39 =>19food in granary (=max) when city grows.
I think perfectly simple, natural, no need for MM-ing
Asperge
functions good and simple, and that there is no need for micromanagement.
When your granary is ready, the food you produce extra will not only be put in grow, but the same amount will be put into your granary.
Example: city needs 39 food to grow;
1. granary ready, food:29/39 =>when city grows you will have 10 food in your granary,
2. granary ready, food:34/39 =>5 food in granary when city grows,
3. granary ready, food:09/39 =>19food in granary (=max) when city grows.
I think perfectly simple, natural, no need for MM-ing
Asperge
This doesn't change anything, especially with respect to micromanaging. In many cases you would be better suited to limit growth and work all your high shield tiles for the duration of the granary build then once built you get two for one on all your food and thereafter half cost upon growth.
If you are willing to micromanage then you can, and benefit from it.
If granaries were changed to build like workers and settlers then you wouldn't have any micromanagement, otherwise you do no matter how you code the process. A simplistic look produces thought like yours which is dead wrong on the one point you are trying to make.
If you are willing to micromanage then you can, and benefit from it.
If granaries were changed to build like workers and settlers then you wouldn't have any micromanagement, otherwise you do no matter how you code the process. A simplistic look produces thought like yours which is dead wrong on the one point you are trying to make.
kryszcztov
Deity
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- Mar 1, 2003
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- 2,423
I recently completed a granary. I thought it was working the same way than in Civ3 (after all, that is what the lousy Civilopedia hints), so I timed its completion just 1 bread before growth. On the turn it was completed, my city gained 1 bread (the last one before it was forced to grow, then). On the next turn I went full growth, gaining 3 breads. Of course I was shocked to see I didn't have so much bread, but after reading various threads (thanks to the Search feature), I'm starting to understand why. Still looking for the exact algorithm though. So, right after growth, I had 5 breads stored. If no bread was due to the granary, I should have had 2 breads, since I gained 3 during growth and was 1 from growth. That means I got 3 breads from my granary.
So ? What is the exact formula ? Does food begin to be saved ON the turn that the granary is completed, or on the following turn ? I frankly prefer the latter solution (just like for any building or improvement (except it is not the case in Civ4, once again)). If the former, it means I had saved 1+3 = 4 breads ; if the latter, it means I had saved 3 breads. Also, is the food produced during growth saved as well ? If no, then the 2 previous cases lead to resp. 1 bread and 0 bread.
Sorry I cannot post a screenshot of that, I hope I was clear enough.
So ? What is the exact formula ? Does food begin to be saved ON the turn that the granary is completed, or on the following turn ? I frankly prefer the latter solution (just like for any building or improvement (except it is not the case in Civ4, once again)). If the former, it means I had saved 1+3 = 4 breads ; if the latter, it means I had saved 3 breads. Also, is the food produced during growth saved as well ? If no, then the 2 previous cases lead to resp. 1 bread and 0 bread.
Sorry I cannot post a screenshot of that, I hope I was clear enough.
angeleyes
mood indigo
@Smirk, my vieuw was indeed too simple
(but not wrong...).
The granary is acting weird, but now i think i understand.
(The problem is also you don't see the granary...)
In civ3 it was wise to complete your granary just before city-grow,
now it's wise to complete it when the foodbar is just half full .....
with the purpose that your granary is full when the city grows.
Completing your granary when there is almost no food on your foodbar
is wasting food.
Completing your granary when the foodbar is almost full is wasting
food too, but then the thing you have to do is, when your city grows,
take is much food as possible to the next foodbar when growing because
that goes to the granary aswell.
I'm afraid i'm only clear to them who has seen this already...
Asperge
(but not wrong...). The granary is acting weird, but now i think i understand.
(The problem is also you don't see the granary...)
In civ3 it was wise to complete your granary just before city-grow,
now it's wise to complete it when the foodbar is just half full .....
with the purpose that your granary is full when the city grows.
Completing your granary when there is almost no food on your foodbar
is wasting food.
Completing your granary when the foodbar is almost full is wasting
food too, but then the thing you have to do is, when your city grows,
take is much food as possible to the next foodbar when growing because
that goes to the granary aswell.
I'm afraid i'm only clear to them who has seen this already...
Asperge
People that like to micromanage, will find any reason to try and micromanage, every little function of the game.
The granery does not show, like it did in III, with a line. The granary stores 50% of the food produced, AFTER it is completed. If you have 30 food, and the granary is completed, NONE of that 30 food is stored in the granary, only the food PRODUCED after the granary is completed is stored. So simple.
You gain maximum benifit from the granary the moment it is produced in storeing food. And since growing a large city early in IV on higher levels runs into severe health problems, I only build the granary for the health benefits it produces, and not the city growth benifits.
The granery does not show, like it did in III, with a line. The granary stores 50% of the food produced, AFTER it is completed. If you have 30 food, and the granary is completed, NONE of that 30 food is stored in the granary, only the food PRODUCED after the granary is completed is stored. So simple.
You gain maximum benifit from the granary the moment it is produced in storeing food. And since growing a large city early in IV on higher levels runs into severe health problems, I only build the granary for the health benefits it produces, and not the city growth benifits.
angeleyes
mood indigo
I don't agree with you, the granary is not functioning as it should be.
Your thought is the simple thought i had earlier.
The solution should be (imho), let the granary function as e.g. the factory.
The granary should give you 100% extra abundant food, and you will see
that on the foodbar. For example when you have 3 extra food, with granary
then 6 extra food. simple.
Asperge
(But what happens when you lose food ...? )
Your thought is the simple thought i had earlier.
The solution should be (imho), let the granary function as e.g. the factory.
The granary should give you 100% extra abundant food, and you will see
that on the foodbar. For example when you have 3 extra food, with granary
then 6 extra food. simple.
Asperge
(But what happens when you lose food ...? )
angeleyes
mood indigo
I have done the next experiment:
I did complete a granary, the foodbar gives 24/30:
1. Let the city grow twice with +6 food ;
2. Let the city grow twice with +5 food;
Result: 1. city has grown, foodbar gives 12/32;
. . . . . 2. city has grown, foodbar gives 14/32 .
I understand it, because i predicted it for myself, but i am not smart
enough to explain it, and it should not be this way .
Asperge
NB: 1. granary is filled with 12 food, but 6 not effective yet
. . . 2. granary is filled with 10 food, all effective...
EDIT: 3. Let city grow with +5, then with +7:
______Result: city has grown, foodbar gives 18/32 !
I did complete a granary, the foodbar gives 24/30:
1. Let the city grow twice with +6 food ;
2. Let the city grow twice with +5 food;
Result: 1. city has grown, foodbar gives 12/32;
. . . . . 2. city has grown, foodbar gives 14/32 .
I understand it, because i predicted it for myself, but i am not smart
enough to explain it, and it should not be this way .
Asperge
NB: 1. granary is filled with 12 food, but 6 not effective yet
. . . 2. granary is filled with 10 food, all effective...
EDIT: 3. Let city grow with +5, then with +7:
______Result: city has grown, foodbar gives 18/32 !
akots
Poet
It depends on how you look at it. May be a bug, may be a feature but certainly somewhat unusual. Anyhow, this is how it works. May be I'm wrong here though.
Let say you have a city with +2 food size 1. It needs 22 food to accumulate to grow so growing in 11 turns. On size 2 it needs 24 food to grow to size 3 (12 turns). On size 3 it is 26 food to grow to size 4 (13 turns). So, growth is incremental. The bigger the city is, the longer it takes to grow. In civ3 there were jumps from town to city to metropolis, so now the growth is gradual but the net result is similar.
Now lets take a city at size 3. On turn 0 it has 0/26 food in the bin and growing in 13 turns at +2 fpt. Then you build a granary and it has no immediate effect. However, when the city becomes size 4 (0/28 food, 14 turns without granary), your food bin is already half-filled with 13 food (13=26/2). Now it can grow in 8 turns with 1 food transferred to the following cycle (28-13=15, 16/2=8 and 1 left over since you need only 15 to get to 28 from 13).
Lets say we build the granary not on turn 0/26 at size 3 but on turn when there is 7 turns to grow to size 4 and there is 12/26 food in the bin. This means that all the rest of the food which you produce (26-12=14) goes to granary. but since the granary can handle no more than 13 food at that city size (half of 26), you get 13 food in the bin when the city reaches size 4 which is exactly the same situation as it is when you build granary on turn 0/26 of size 3.
Now, if the granary is built at size 3 when there is 6 turns to grow to size 4 and there is 14/26 food in the bin, then when the city reaches size 4, you get 12 food in the bin (26-14=12) and will have 8 turns to grow but without surplus 1 food. During the next growth cycle to size 5 the granary does get full of course. If the granary is built at size 3 when there is 2 turns to grow to size 4 and there is 22/26 food in the bin, you get only 4 food (26-22=4) at size 4 and will have 12 turns to grow (28-4=24, 24/2=12).
It is somewhat counterintuitive and not documented but more or less evident imho.
Now, starvation is a different story, I don't know how it works. Apparently similar to civ3, you'd have to eat up the granary first before actually starting on current food supply but I have not tested it yet.
This means, for maximal benefit and minimal head ache, might be a good idea to finish building granary early in the growth cycle or before the middle of the growth cycle of the city (or shortly after middle). That should give the most benefit for growth.
Let say you have a city with +2 food size 1. It needs 22 food to accumulate to grow so growing in 11 turns. On size 2 it needs 24 food to grow to size 3 (12 turns). On size 3 it is 26 food to grow to size 4 (13 turns). So, growth is incremental. The bigger the city is, the longer it takes to grow. In civ3 there were jumps from town to city to metropolis, so now the growth is gradual but the net result is similar.
Now lets take a city at size 3. On turn 0 it has 0/26 food in the bin and growing in 13 turns at +2 fpt. Then you build a granary and it has no immediate effect. However, when the city becomes size 4 (0/28 food, 14 turns without granary), your food bin is already half-filled with 13 food (13=26/2). Now it can grow in 8 turns with 1 food transferred to the following cycle (28-13=15, 16/2=8 and 1 left over since you need only 15 to get to 28 from 13).
Lets say we build the granary not on turn 0/26 at size 3 but on turn when there is 7 turns to grow to size 4 and there is 12/26 food in the bin. This means that all the rest of the food which you produce (26-12=14) goes to granary. but since the granary can handle no more than 13 food at that city size (half of 26), you get 13 food in the bin when the city reaches size 4 which is exactly the same situation as it is when you build granary on turn 0/26 of size 3.
Now, if the granary is built at size 3 when there is 6 turns to grow to size 4 and there is 14/26 food in the bin, then when the city reaches size 4, you get 12 food in the bin (26-14=12) and will have 8 turns to grow but without surplus 1 food. During the next growth cycle to size 5 the granary does get full of course. If the granary is built at size 3 when there is 2 turns to grow to size 4 and there is 22/26 food in the bin, you get only 4 food (26-22=4) at size 4 and will have 12 turns to grow (28-4=24, 24/2=12).
It is somewhat counterintuitive and not documented but more or less evident imho.
Now, starvation is a different story, I don't know how it works. Apparently similar to civ3, you'd have to eat up the granary first before actually starting on current food supply but I have not tested it yet.
This means, for maximal benefit and minimal head ache, might be a good idea to finish building granary early in the growth cycle or before the middle of the growth cycle of the city (or shortly after middle). That should give the most benefit for growth.
kryszcztov
Deity
- Joined
- Mar 1, 2003
- Messages
- 2,423
Asperge, I think I now understand how the granary works, and it seems you do too. Just posted this there. Your example clearly shows what I mentioned at the end of my post, without remembering your post though (I had read it before) and without putting it clearly in my head, so, thanks for providing us with this simple example ! I also think there is something wrong with this math (I mean, you don't want to micromanage and get screwed in the process), but IMHO it seems to work like the other features that have to deal with overflow. It looks like we could achieve a similar result (getting more stuff out of a tile assignment normally leading to less stuff) with city production and overall science. Though clear examples like yours could be fine too... The "key" is to reach the last unit before the limit and then go break the limit with all you have.Asperge said:
Note : Reload your save, and do +5 then +6. I predict you'll get 16/32 after 2 turns, even better !!
angeleyes
mood indigo
kryszcztov said:Note : Reload your save, and do +5 then +6. I predict you'll get 16/32 after 2 turns, even better !!
Right. In the granary comes 11, + overfow 5 = 16 ....
I think you will get the best result if you get your granary just filled before grow.
that means completing your granary when foodbar is half full.
Can't yet react on everything ..
Asperge
The problems are: granary is not immediately effective after completion,
and only when city grow you get the benefits.
angeleyes
mood indigo
TLHeart said:
I never said it's a bug, i don't like the way it works.
I don't understand you seems to think that the outcome of my experiment
( with +5food city grows faster than with +6 food ), is logical ........?
I don't like doing weird trics to get better results, i want clear and deep
thinking.
Asperge
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