Grumpy Old Men AWP Hub
- Thread starter ThERat
- Start date
ThERat
Deity
yup, first round 20 each, then second rotation 10 each
GOMAW 27 - Builder's Turns!
1250 BC (0)
I think I'll found the city on the E side of the river and play it more for commerce than production. It will speed worker building. Berlin is just about at the limit of it's truly useful tiles. We'll want a Lighthouse sooner rather than later to open up working another Hill. Think I'll go with another Archer or two before a Settler. I think I won't get the Copper hooked up on this round.
Changed my mind: City will be on the W side of the river. That gets the Copper right away and gives the single best city.
1225 BC (1)
Resist the urge to whack Ghandi's Scout. We'll get another crack at him soon enough.
1200 BC (2)
Changed my mind again and founded the city on the E side of the river. May have paid off as we could have a better site in our NW than if we had founded on the W side of the river. Munich starts on a worker.
City upkeep isn't oppressive yet.
1175 BC (3)
Egyptian Warrior, although well-promoted, just wants to wander around.
1150 BC (4)
Barbs promote (barely) our starting Warrior. Swap Hamburg to a Worker, I don't think we need a 0-XP Warrior right now.
Well here's a shock. I take the Anarchy to revolt us into Slavery. Worth nothing right now but it should save on upkeep fairly soon.
1125 BC (5)
Start on Mysticism. We may want to chop Stonehenge to avoid building Obelisks. We are going to struggle with culture early.
1050 BC (8)
Start Stonehenge in Berlin. Only 14 turns, without chops.
Start research on Sailing to be able to build a Lighthouse in Berlin soon.
960 BC (11)
Not a whole lot happening with Worker and Wonder builds ongoing.
920 BC (13?)
Kill Hattie's Warrior, who had stepped into our cultural boundaries. Archer is barely surviving, but it can get two promotions next turn.
900 BC (14)
Start on Agriculture, but then notice we don't have any tiles that require it. Re-set course to Masonry.
880 BC (15)
Shuffle Archers and Huyana's guy starts to approach. Burn a couple of promotions to make the doubly-promoted Archer an anti-Quecha unit (Combat I / Shock).
860 BC (16)
Stonehenge in, start to hook up the Iron. Begin a Settler in Berlin, once the Iron is hooked up we can build an Axe or two to be safe.
800 BC (20)
I'll hand off here and the next guy gets an extra turn. I haven't moved any units yet.
Masonry completes, tech is pointed at Metal Casting. Yes, we want it. No, not now at 35 turns.
The Archer in Berlin completes, maybe a Settler next. We should also have our Iron hooked up by the next turn if you would rather smite the Quecha first. Even with the promoted Archer we really need to have the Quecha attack us on good defensive terrain. He is almost done with his scouting, so it should be possible to get him to attack us. That is the only enemy unit visible in our territory. The Lighthouse build would net us two extra food, but I think we would rather have another city right now.
The Worker from Hamburg completes, we can start to build an economy there.
Final Notes:
Munich is already connected to Berlin through the river (and Hamburg).
Not a very exciting turn, but within a couple of turns we'll have more workers than cities. I know how most folks loathe to build workers in SGs, so I got us to a surplus. We should be fine for another couple of cities, then can build some more. Since we've got Stonehenge it may be a good idea to prioritize settling the Marble site soon (hence the Masonry research). With Marble, an Oracle build is almost absurdly cheap for us. Probably ~8 turns in Berlin even without any forest chops. Much faster than researching an expensive tech. And although we could chop the wonder anywhere, I figure it should go in Berlin to concentrate the GPPs. I am not sure whether religion can cross borders during wartime, and I think we will want to have a religion. At the least it could be free money from a Shrine. We also need a religion to use the religious civics.
I think we get cheap Granaries. Won't add to our health (none of the proper resources), but probably worthwhile anyway for the faster growth.
1250 BC (0)
I think I'll found the city on the E side of the river and play it more for commerce than production. It will speed worker building. Berlin is just about at the limit of it's truly useful tiles. We'll want a Lighthouse sooner rather than later to open up working another Hill. Think I'll go with another Archer or two before a Settler. I think I won't get the Copper hooked up on this round.
Changed my mind: City will be on the W side of the river. That gets the Copper right away and gives the single best city.
1225 BC (1)
Resist the urge to whack Ghandi's Scout. We'll get another crack at him soon enough.
1200 BC (2)
Changed my mind again and founded the city on the E side of the river. May have paid off as we could have a better site in our NW than if we had founded on the W side of the river. Munich starts on a worker.
City upkeep isn't oppressive yet.
1175 BC (3)
Egyptian Warrior, although well-promoted, just wants to wander around.
1150 BC (4)
Barbs promote (barely) our starting Warrior. Swap Hamburg to a Worker, I don't think we need a 0-XP Warrior right now.
Well here's a shock. I take the Anarchy to revolt us into Slavery. Worth nothing right now but it should save on upkeep fairly soon.
1125 BC (5)
Start on Mysticism. We may want to chop Stonehenge to avoid building Obelisks. We are going to struggle with culture early.
1050 BC (8)
Start Stonehenge in Berlin. Only 14 turns, without chops.
Start research on Sailing to be able to build a Lighthouse in Berlin soon.
960 BC (11)
Not a whole lot happening with Worker and Wonder builds ongoing.
920 BC (13?)
Kill Hattie's Warrior, who had stepped into our cultural boundaries. Archer is barely surviving, but it can get two promotions next turn.
900 BC (14)
Start on Agriculture, but then notice we don't have any tiles that require it. Re-set course to Masonry.
880 BC (15)
Shuffle Archers and Huyana's guy starts to approach. Burn a couple of promotions to make the doubly-promoted Archer an anti-Quecha unit (Combat I / Shock).
860 BC (16)
Stonehenge in, start to hook up the Iron. Begin a Settler in Berlin, once the Iron is hooked up we can build an Axe or two to be safe.
800 BC (20)
I'll hand off here and the next guy gets an extra turn. I haven't moved any units yet.
Masonry completes, tech is pointed at Metal Casting. Yes, we want it. No, not now at 35 turns.
The Archer in Berlin completes, maybe a Settler next. We should also have our Iron hooked up by the next turn if you would rather smite the Quecha first. Even with the promoted Archer we really need to have the Quecha attack us on good defensive terrain. He is almost done with his scouting, so it should be possible to get him to attack us. That is the only enemy unit visible in our territory. The Lighthouse build would net us two extra food, but I think we would rather have another city right now.
The Worker from Hamburg completes, we can start to build an economy there.
Final Notes:
Munich is already connected to Berlin through the river (and Hamburg).
Not a very exciting turn, but within a couple of turns we'll have more workers than cities. I know how most folks loathe to build workers in SGs, so I got us to a surplus. We should be fine for another couple of cities, then can build some more. Since we've got Stonehenge it may be a good idea to prioritize settling the Marble site soon (hence the Masonry research). With Marble, an Oracle build is almost absurdly cheap for us. Probably ~8 turns in Berlin even without any forest chops. Much faster than researching an expensive tech. And although we could chop the wonder anywhere, I figure it should go in Berlin to concentrate the GPPs. I am not sure whether religion can cross borders during wartime, and I think we will want to have a religion. At the least it could be free money from a Shrine. We also need a religion to use the religious civics.
I think we get cheap Granaries. Won't add to our health (none of the proper resources), but probably worthwhile anyway for the faster growth.
Here's where Munich was founded:
The little red dots are tiles neither Munich nor Hamburg can work. I pushed Munich east due to there being few worthwhile tiles along the NE coast, and hoped it would open up a better, less-cramped site in the W. Not sure whether it did or not. I had us a little thin on units and used the ones we had to shield our workers and tiles from the enemy wanderers. Next player should probably send the Shock Archer up to the NW corner to see what's there once the Quecha is dismissed.
The Pink dot claims most of the unused tiles, plus a grab-bag of fog. Even though there is a Fish on the N coast we may not be able to place a city to claim it.
The yellow ellipse indicates what appear to be more land tiles under the fog. We may have a worthwhile site W of Hamburg.
The little red dots are tiles neither Munich nor Hamburg can work. I pushed Munich east due to there being few worthwhile tiles along the NE coast, and hoped it would open up a better, less-cramped site in the W. Not sure whether it did or not. I had us a little thin on units and used the ones we had to shield our workers and tiles from the enemy wanderers. Next player should probably send the Shock Archer up to the NW corner to see what's there once the Quecha is dismissed.
The Pink dot claims most of the unused tiles, plus a grab-bag of fog. Even though there is a Fish on the N coast we may not be able to place a city to claim it.
The yellow ellipse indicates what appear to be more land tiles under the fog. We may have a worthwhile site W of Hamburg.
ThERat
Deity
I like it, the longer our builder turns last, the better our chances of survival in Civ4. A good infra will help a lot. Suggest to bust the fog to see whether there is anything useful and maybe start to settle towards the choke.
Roster
ThERat
grs
Greebley
T_McC
knupp715 - up
Roster
ThERat
grs
Greebley
T_McC
knupp715 - up
Admiral Kutzov
Idiot Emeritus
lurker's comment: gotta luv anygame that uses the power of the pink dot. 
And this cast... Request from the idiot lurker - a screenie of the iron (unless I missed it the previous posts, in which case, let me know and I'll go back) and if not too presumptuous, some commentary on the tech path?
And this cast... Request from the idiot lurker - a screenie of the iron (unless I missed it the previous posts, in which case, let me know and I'll go back) and if not too presumptuous, some commentary on the tech path?The iron is within Berlin's borders, but not its workable tiles. (See Greebley's post.)
As far as tech ... no real strong rationale on my turns, other than I wanted to build Stonehenge and a Lighthouse. But then I discovered we don't get cheap Lighthouses, so it can wait. Because of the # of lux near our start we don't have a pressing need for Hereditary Rule, at least not yet. We do want Metal Casting soonish, because not only do we get 1/2-price Forges, we have 2 of the 3 happy resources doubled by Forges.
We do have to make a decision whether we want to try to research to Christianity, and use our first Great Prophet for the shrine, or wait for the first Great Prophet to offer to research Theology for us. A bit of a gamble to wait on the Prophet as Christianity may not last until he pops. I think we definitely want a religion.
It might be a viable strategy to use the Oracle tech to found a religion. But that would leave us to self-research the expensive Metal Casting. I think once we settle 2 more cities we should be ready to build the Oracle. We might even have to do it after 1 more city, as no one other than Berlin will be capable of building troops anytime soon. I think Munich will develop into our settler source (and economy + occasional troop) after it can grow into its best 3-4 tiles. (Pigs, Copper, mined grassland hill)
I think the next city should be targeted as a troop producer. Hamburg and Munich will produce good commerce with river cottages, but thus may lag in production until all of the cottages are being worked. (Actually, Munich will work high production tiles early and cottages later, but I think it is better positioned to build population-based units.) I don't really have a suggestion where that city location would be ...
I would target Hamburg for the Great Library (we're industrious and have marble, it's an easy play as long as we have a couple choppable forests). That way the highest commerce city (most likely to build Library/University) will have the free scientists. And the Scientist GPP are not mixed/polluted with the Prophet GPP.
As far as tech ... no real strong rationale on my turns, other than I wanted to build Stonehenge and a Lighthouse. But then I discovered we don't get cheap Lighthouses, so it can wait. Because of the # of lux near our start we don't have a pressing need for Hereditary Rule, at least not yet. We do want Metal Casting soonish, because not only do we get 1/2-price Forges, we have 2 of the 3 happy resources doubled by Forges.
We do have to make a decision whether we want to try to research to Christianity, and use our first Great Prophet for the shrine, or wait for the first Great Prophet to offer to research Theology for us. A bit of a gamble to wait on the Prophet as Christianity may not last until he pops. I think we definitely want a religion.
It might be a viable strategy to use the Oracle tech to found a religion. But that would leave us to self-research the expensive Metal Casting. I think once we settle 2 more cities we should be ready to build the Oracle. We might even have to do it after 1 more city, as no one other than Berlin will be capable of building troops anytime soon. I think Munich will develop into our settler source (and economy + occasional troop) after it can grow into its best 3-4 tiles. (Pigs, Copper, mined grassland hill)
I think the next city should be targeted as a troop producer. Hamburg and Munich will produce good commerce with river cottages, but thus may lag in production until all of the cottages are being worked. (Actually, Munich will work high production tiles early and cottages later, but I think it is better positioned to build population-based units.) I don't really have a suggestion where that city location would be ...
I would target Hamburg for the Great Library (we're industrious and have marble, it's an easy play as long as we have a couple choppable forests). That way the highest commerce city (most likely to build Library/University) will have the free scientists. And the Scientist GPP are not mixed/polluted with the Prophet GPP.
Admiral Kutzov
Idiot Emeritus
lurker's comment: thanks T McC. I've found the iron. I get locked into a box, but since you're already self researching MC, couldn't u use the Oracle for CoL and thus confusianism? Has the added benny of letting u build CH? For your final civs, your goals are Police State, Nationalism, Emancipation, State Property and what? or won't this last that long?
To reply to the Admiral 
, and to make it perfectly clear: We do not want to be researching Metal Casting right now. It is way too expensive for our current economy. I would just stick with the cheap stuff until we have a pressing need. We can build Galleys, Axes, Swords, Archers and Spears. Once we settle the Horse site, Horseback Riding for the difference between Chariots and Horse Archers may be attractive.
We probably want Construction pretty soon so we can build Jumbos and Catapults. I suspect that would be the short-term tech goal, along with determining a religious strategy. We can also continue the no-Agriculture variant.
, and to make it perfectly clear: We do not want to be researching Metal Casting right now. It is way too expensive for our current economy. I would just stick with the cheap stuff until we have a pressing need. We can build Galleys, Axes, Swords, Archers and Spears. Once we settle the Horse site, Horseback Riding for the difference between Chariots and Horse Archers may be attractive. We probably want Construction pretty soon so we can build Jumbos and Catapults. I suspect that would be the short-term tech goal, along with determining a religious strategy. We can also continue the no-Agriculture variant.
Admiral Kutzov
Idiot Emeritus
K, but the screenie shows u r researching MC. what up with that?
I like heading for Construction. Having Jumbo's and their strength of 8 can be very nice early on. With cats to reduce city defense, it is is a nice path to head for. It can be expensive so we may not yet be quite ready, but I do like to go for it early when I have ivory.
We can go Writing --> Priesthood --> Mathematics --> Construction/CoL, although I'm not sure what tech we take for free with the Oracle.
Beaker cost: CoL = 350, Construction = 350, Metal Casting = 450, Currency = 400 (Not scaled for difficulty or speed). I would still use the Oracle on Metal Casting and then, I guess, the first Prophet on CoL (hopefully) while self-researching Construction and Currency.
No beakers have been invested in Metal Casting.
Beaker cost: CoL = 350, Construction = 350, Metal Casting = 450, Currency = 400 (Not scaled for difficulty or speed). I would still use the Oracle on Metal Casting and then, I guess, the first Prophet on CoL (hopefully) while self-researching Construction and Currency.
No beakers have been invested in Metal Casting.
knupp715
King
I've got the save.
I feel we don't really need more Wonders. I would rather see us using the shields for troops and harassing nearby AI, grabbing the choke, and building more cities when appropriate.
We can keep up in tech well enough at Prince that this isn't a primary worry for me. I would simply skip the Oracle.
We can keep up in tech well enough at Prince that this isn't a primary worry for me. I would simply skip the Oracle.
Do you understand how cheap the Oracle is for us? Sticker is 225 hammers, provided we claim the Marble we only need to put 90 hammers into it. So, would you rather have a tech that would otherwise take >20 turns to research, or 3 Archers? The Great Library would cost over 200 hammers, even with all the bonuses, so that is going to cost 4 Swords. But it also just about guarantees 3 Great Scientists, so that's either 3 free techs or 3 Academies.
This isn't about wonder addiction, it's about playing to your traits. Ind + Marble = build some wonders. Otherwise we're playing with one arm tied behind our back. I don't think we need any wonders besides the Oracle and the Great Library, at least not anytime soon. If we didn't have Marble I probably wouldn't advocate building the Great Library, but the game is just handing us a free tech that would otherwise be expensive. The Oracle is 2 forest chops (at this speed forests give 45 hammers).
This isn't about wonder addiction, it's about playing to your traits. Ind + Marble = build some wonders. Otherwise we're playing with one arm tied behind our back. I don't think we need any wonders besides the Oracle and the Great Library, at least not anytime soon. If we didn't have Marble I probably wouldn't advocate building the Great Library, but the game is just handing us a free tech that would otherwise be expensive. The Oracle is 2 forest chops (at this speed forests give 45 hammers).
grs
nameless one
I'd definately want to pick up cheap wonders with marble and being industrious.
I think I prefer getting at least a few axmen built before we start more wonders. Grabbing the choke seems highest priority to me. If we can build the wonders quickly then we can't lose lots of shields if we do get beaten to it.
450 extra beakers won't make much difference in the long run which is the benefit of the oracle if we go for metal casting. At least the great library continues to add benefits, though I still think I prefer the extra axemen. 200 beakers is 5 1/2 axemen which can go a long way (and better than 4 swords). Once we have "enough" troops, then I would consider the wonders, but not before. I think there is still a good chance the Oracle and GLib won't have been built as it won't take that long to solidify our position.
450 extra beakers won't make much difference in the long run which is the benefit of the oracle if we go for metal casting. At least the great library continues to add benefits, though I still think I prefer the extra axemen. 200 beakers is 5 1/2 axemen which can go a long way (and better than 4 swords). Once we have "enough" troops, then I would consider the wonders, but not before. I think there is still a good chance the Oracle and GLib won't have been built as it won't take that long to solidify our position.
Sirian
Designer, Mohawk Games
knupp715 said:
You do realize there will be two chokes, right? ... Right?
- Sirian
No I didn't realize that. Good to know. I guess if I think about what "hub" means it makes sense 
So I wouldn't start any wonders unless we have both chokes covered.
So I wouldn't start any wonders unless we have both chokes covered.
Well, that and the GPP points. Which equals a free Religion (tech), Shrine, or 2 Hammers and 5 gold per turn, pre-multipliers, for as many turns as the game lasts. Don't think a pair of Axes can do any of that.Greebley said:
Forgot the multiplier. Axes will cost ... 43 shields. So 4 1/2 Axes. Versus Academies in our two largest commerce cities.Greebley said:
Agree that closing the chokes is the priority. Explains the land by the yellow ellipse. Go there first since it is a long walk to our territory from the southern choke. May also mean that the seafood on the southern choke is safe unless the AI build Galleys from a handful of particular cities. Or if they settle on the wrong coast.
But the Oracle is a 4-5 turn build in Berlin so long as we have a forest to chop. The Great Library is a ways off regardless. Right now we should work on getting a couple of more cities up and improved. Then when we have a consolidation round we can build the Oracle. I'm not interested in merely keeping up in tech, I want to lead.
One sneaky thing we could do, although it would dilute the value of the GPP, is to chop the Oracle in one of the choke cities (only takes two forests once we have the Marble hooked up). Adding 8 cpt will bump us to 40%/60% cultural defense fairly quickly, and I have no faith in the AIs ability to keep artillery together with city attack units.
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