Gving the Musketeer a 25% melee Bonus

[Krick19]

You're proabaly not leveraging it properly, have you tried combining it with Mounted units and Spies?

The fast movement allows you to travel to cities quickly and the Spies forcing Cities into Revolt should help you captue those weaker secondary cities.

I really thought that the point was to be able to easily head to major targets that you wish to keep quickly and be able to defend them better.

 

[Rusty Edge]

I agree. An extra first strike with replaceable parts would be good. Not a Drill I promotion because that would open up otter promotions and also be carried over when the unit was upgraded. If it could be modded this way it would be ideal (assuming musketeers do need a boost which as I said I don't know).

edit: Also would the bonus carry on to Rifles extra. I assume not.

Otter promotions are opened up with Drill? Such as Amphibious? As opposed to Otter techs such as Fishing?

Sounds like a python question to me, at least that's partly how they promote existing units in random events.

 

[AmazonQueen]

Otter promotions are opened up with Drill? Such as Amphibious? As opposed to Otter techs such as Fishing?

Sounds like a python question to me, at least that's partly how they promote existing units in random events.

Ooops
Whilst we're correcting (some of) my mistakes bayonets should be fixed not mounted (which sounds painful).

 

[Rusty Edge]

Ooops
Whilst we're correcting (some of) my mistakes bayonets should be fixed not mounted (which sounds painful).

That one did confuse me at first read. I was even checking to see if musketeers had become mounted units in some patch or upgrade without me noticing, before I figured it out.

 

[Levgre]

the extra first strike does not really make sense because the range on the early guns was much lower than the range on bows.

The advantage of guns was how extremely powerful the shots were. So they were most effective against armored units like knights, because they would penetrate the armor much better than arrows usually. But there is no "armored" class in civ...

 

[AmazonQueen]

the extra first strike does not really make sense because the range on the early guns was much lower than the range on bows.

The advantage of guns was how extremely powerful the shots were. So they were most effective against armored units like knights, because they would penetrate the armor much better than arrows usually. But there is no "armored" class in civ...

But if it came with replaceable parts it wouldn't be for early guns. It would be for the 19th century musket when things like manufactured cartridges greatly increased rate of fire

 

[Mercutio Wilder]

A musket vs. a longbow was no contest: a longbowman could fire faster, farther and more accurately. The big issue was the difference in the amount of training required. Benjamin Franklin suggested using longbows in the American militia because it was a superior weapon at the time.

No contest? Only one major army ever deployed Longbows on a large scale: the Enlgish. And there is a reason.

Arrows don't penetrate amour, bullets do.

Arrows are bulky limiting the ammo that can be carried, bullets are tiny.

Fielding large numbers of musketeers is cheap and easy. A dead longbowmen takes decades to replace.


Accuracy? In clout shooting of longbows the target is a flag in the field and accuracy is measure in yards from the target.

Ben Franklin suggested the weapon because armour wasn't worn by infantry anymore. But it was never done because it would've too expensive and time consuming.

With all due respect there are good reasons why professional commanders raising armies almost universally preferred good crossbowmen to longbowmen and why firearms ended up dominating warfare. These men lived those wars and as professionals picked crossbows and muskets over longbows.

Respectfully,
Merc

P.S. I think any missile weapon unit should come with first strike, that's what they are designed to do.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

But if it came with replaceable parts it wouldn't be for early guns. It would be for the 19th century musket when things like manufactured cartridges greatly increased rate of fire

The first strike makes sense conceptually, but keep in mind that the natural counters to muskets (knights, cuirassers and such) already ignore first strikes .

Maybe a +% strength that isn't carried through to rifle upgrades would make more gameplay sense, so that muskets aren't still equally gimped by exactly the unit that causes them problems anyway.

 

[kniteowl]

I really thought that the point was to be able to easily head to major targets that you wish to keep quickly and be able to defend them better.

Yeah that too...

Were Muskets really easier to train then Longbows? (I've never studied history so I wouldn't know)

Then why not make Muskets cheaper then they currently are, since they take less time to train... although I wouldn't make them cheaper then Longbows for Game Balance Reasons.

ALtho Peopl still may not build muskets if they're easier to Draft. *shrugs*

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Yeah that too...

Were Muskets really easier to train then Longbows? (I've never studied history so I wouldn't know)

Then why not make Muskets cheaper then they currently are, since they take less time to train... although I wouldn't make them cheaper then Longbows for Game Balance Reasons.

ALtho Peopl still may not build muskets if they're easier to Draft. *shrugs*

I use muskets already. They're important stack defense because they beat all previous-era units except knights, and as you pointed out they're draft-able.

They were certainly easier to train than longbows. Longbow men trained a very, very long time (IIRC well over 10 years) to master its usage. Time consuming and expensive, and not exactly something that'd be practical to build massed armies (and they'd still have to be trained on general military stuff). Muskets, on the other hand, were pretty easy to learn how to use even though they weren't as accurate or ranged at first. This meant that with minimal training and some military discipline, muskets could be massed readily from previously inexperienced troops.

In addition to their role as stack defense, muskets are not bad city busters. The primary unit to do damage to a city's defenders is usually a trebuchet (and latter cannon) anyway. If you really need to hurt that longbow just use cover, although usually muskets carry more than enough strength to win out after some collateral damage.

 

[Iranon]

Other Unique Units fight better. French Unique Units run faster. Discuss whether this is thematically appropriate [15 points]

 

[AmazonQueen]

Yeah that too...

Were Muskets really easier to train then Longbows? (I've never studied history so I wouldn't know)

Then why not make Muskets cheaper then they currently are, since they take less time to train... although I wouldn't make them cheaper then Longbows for Game Balance Reasons.

ALtho Peopl still may not build muskets if they're easier to Draft. *shrugs*

In Europe only the English and Welsh used longbows to any extent militarily. The Scots and French tried to raise longbow units but their troops hadn't been using longbows since childhood. It wasn't just training, it was muscle development too.

 

[AfterShafter]

Other Unique Units fight better. French Unique Units run faster. Discuss whether this is thematically appropriate [15 points]

So do the Zulu and Mongol units... And the American unit is better at preemptive strikes than any other civ's equivalent unit. All makes sense, eh?

 

[MkLh]

25% against melee seems quite useless. Musketeers beat melee in the field anyway, but cities are defended with longbows&crossbows. 25% against archery would be something.

 

[Mercutio Wilder]

The first strike makes sense conceptually, but keep in mind that the natural counters to muskets (knights, cuirassers and such) already ignore first strikes .

I also dislike cavalry ignoring first strikes. And they don't in my own modding. Which works much better with other mods like Dale's Combat Mod.

The game is playable and fun (and I love it). But it's a game, so you have to know the rules and play to the rules to win. I'd like to be able to apply real world history and win. Then it would be even more fun

Cheers,
Steven

 

[Rusty Edge]

I also dislike cavalry ignoring first strikes. And they don't in my own modding. Which works much better with other mods like Dale's Combat Mod.

The game is playable and fun (and I love it). But it's a game, so you have to know the rules and play to the rules to win. I'd like to be able to apply real world history and win. Then it would be even more fun

Cheers,
Steven

My suggestion of a melee bonus for muskets with replaceable parts or military science was a by-product of my mimic the smokeless powder random event promotion approach thinking. Formation promo seemed over-powered.

From a who knows how this would be implemented standpoint- bonuses , such as one first strike to represent improved locks/paper cartridges with replaceable parts and a 25% defensive bonus against mounted to represent bayonets with Military Science or Replaceable Parts. That would help muskets evolve from early to late.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I also dislike cavalry ignoring first strikes. And they don't in my own modding. Which works much better with other mods like Dale's Combat Mod.

The game is playable and fun (and I love it). But it's a game, so you have to know the rules and play to the rules to win. I'd like to be able to apply real world history and win. Then it would be even more fun

Cheers,
Steven

It's kind of funny...I know you meant mounted in general, but actually cavalry are the only "mounted" class unit other than Keshik and Cataphract UUs that ISN'T immune to first strikes .

It kind of makes sense kind of doesn't, but the game has some limitations in war mechanics. For example, arrow first strikes = gun first strikes = naval first strikes . I do understand the FS immunity regarding mounted though, as mounted in old wars tended to hit hard and fast, and often by surprise from awkward-to-defend angles. The ability to do this would logically be an advantage until automatic weapons showed up, as that closing speed would be much more significant then.

 

[ICNP]

Shoot I thought this was for Mustketmen which definetly need a bonus against Melee. Musketeers are sissy's and should be left with their innate ability to run away faster *brandishes shield to protect self from French loving flame*

 

[AmazonQueen]

If we're talking a bonus for the Musketeer rather than Musketmen in general I'd go with Mobility or March. French armies of the Revolutionary and Napoleonic Wars period were very mobile and lived off the land (except in Spain and Russia where they starved).

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I could agree with mobility (although it would be minimal benefit past what they are now). March would be RIGGED.

If the french can put up enough EP drafted musketeers + knights = win. You need a reasonable-sized empire to pull that off though.