Adjusting Musketeer

[prloko]

Moderator. Please don't move to Modding forum as I am not seeking modding advice, but gameplay input from players.

Hi all. There are old threads on this that didn't quite answer this.

I like to tweak units and techs to better balance (or even unbalance) games. One tweak I’m looking to do is modify the musketeer. Its been discussed before, but if you wanted to provide a bigger incentive to build musketeers without OPing them, which would you pick? Im looking to give the musketeer the normal 1 movement range as opposed to its current 2, but give it either morale (+1 movement), or commando( use enemy roads).

Commando might make it too OP im thinking. I like the idea of the unit keeping its ability in upgrade similar to the impi keeping its ability as you upgrade it.

Also thinking of lowering elephant to 7 base strength but keeping balista at 8 to give it a reason to be built and feared.

Thoughts? Ideas about other units welcomed too.

 

[lymond]

Yep, I think adding a promo based bonus would be nice as the current bonus disappears on upgrade....so Morale seems a good one.

 

[drewisfat]

Well imo musketeer is the most underrated unit in the game and elephants the most overrated. Musketeers buff cuirassier rushes and are easily the best musket UU, on par with conqs. Elephants have serious downsides: requiring HBR, not getting CR promos and not benefitting from AGG. Drop them to 7 str and I'd never use them.

 

[Fippy]

CR isn't needed that much on jumbos thou, with their high base strength they beat most defenders comfy after cats did their work.

 

[drewisfat]

Right but so do CR swords for cheaper cost/earlier production. Not saying jumbos aren't good just that if they're OP it's by like .2 strength or something and that it's really siege that's OP.

 

[Fippy]

Okay but they are also great on the open field
AIs have no idea how they could form a counterattack, they will keep building HAs..swords & axes have little chance as well.

What would you do in MP if someone walks around with jumbos while you don't have ivory?
You cannot attack with spears cos they are so easily defended against with few axes, imo it's just one of those units that have no real counter.

 

[drewisfat]

There's no counter to swords in MP without metal either
Blame Balanced Resources for not spreading the ivory around.

 

[civac]

We use elephants at 7 strength in our MP games. They are very good units. May be different in SP though. But my guess is I'd still build them there too. They simply have far lower tech requirement and/or build cost compared to macemen and knights. That does not remove the problem with access to ivory though. The somewhat inelegant current solution is to make elephants buildable with either ivory or iron.

As for Musketeers, how about buffing muskets and all their variants to 10 base strength? Would that work?

 

[Nick723]

We use elephants at 7 strength in our MP games. They are very good units. May be different in SP though. But my guess is I'd still build them there too. They simply have far lower tech requirement and/or build cost compared to macemen and knights. That does not remove the problem with access to ivory though. The somewhat inelegant current solution is to make elephants buildable with either ivory or iron.

As for Musketeers, how about buffing muskets and all their variants to 10 base strength? Would that work?

I think all the musket UUs could have their benefits replaced by the equivalent promotions. Would make upgrading more fun.

Similarly, by allowing macemen / pikemen to upgrade to muskets, you’d open up opportunities that way (gunpowder bulb + city raider muskets)

 

[prloko]

Thanks for all the great responses and good points. Elephants are fun, and I know its just a game, but elephants while significant, were more of a shock troop, and not a main offensive weapon, and I wanted to return them to that role of an open field terror. I guess you can say that about a lot of units, but elephant has a special case in my heart

This article gave me a bit of inspiration

War elephant reign of terror ended by Roman battle tactic

The massive beasts, often measuring three metres tall and weighing up to four tonnes, were a devastating ph...

www.9news.com.au

 

[prloko]

We use elephants at 7 strength in our MP games. They are very good units. May be different in SP though. But my guess is I'd still build them there too. They simply have far lower tech requirement and/or build cost compared to macemen and knights. That does not remove the problem with access to ivory though. The somewhat inelegant current solution is to make elephants buildable with either ivory or iron.

As for Musketeers, how about buffing muskets and all their variants to 10 base strength? Would that work?

I play lower skill levels so for players like me, I can make use of a musket rush, so im afraid of making them stronger. At least for me.

side note:
I also played with other items, like bringing in privateers earlier to make use of them for mercantilism. I also made them more formidable to frigates by making them a hit and run jack sparrow type unit with a first strike chance, extra sight and a small withdrawal chance. Makes them fun when fighting frigates, but the whole privateer game mechanic is broken as AIs absolutely obsess in building humongous navies to counter them (even if just triremes) even to the detriment of their field armies.

 

[prloko]

So as far as Phalanx (which is really a Hoplite using a phalanx formation, but I digress), I had made some edits to make them the dominant force they were during their time, but I think I OP'd them, and besides they had serious weaknesses if they couldn't force the enemy to engage them head on. So I'm thinking of returning them to normal (BtS Phalanx), but add back the hills defense that they had in Vanilla (ala "The 300") but by adding Guerilla I as a free promotion. Thoughts on how gameplay would be? Would you use them?

 

[Nick723]

So as far as Phalanx (which is really a Hoplite using a phalanx formation, but I digress), I had made some edits to make them the dominant force they were during their time, but I think I OP'd them, and besides they had serious weaknesses if they couldn't force the enemy to engage them head on. So I'm thinking of returning them to normal (BtS Phalanx), but add back the hills defense that they had in Vanilla (ala "The 300") but by adding Guerilla I as a free promotion. Thoughts on how gameplay would be? Would you use them?

As similar to the above, I’d like to see phalanx just get formation for free.

 

[civac]

They replaced spearmen in vanilla afaik.

 

[prloko]

They replaced spearmen in vanilla afaik.

Correct, in Vanilla, they were a 5 str spearman with 25% on hills. They changed them in BtS to Axman with +100%defense to chariots, in essence negating the chariot bonus against them. The bonus system still confuses me a bit so im not too sure on the actual combat effect that bonus applies. In a previous attempt I made to improve the Phalanx in my games, i imcreased their base to 6, gave them 25% vs HA, and reduced chariot bonus to 75%. Still not the best, but became OP, especially when Alex was my neighbor. So Im thinking of removing those changes and just giving the BtS Phalanx Guerilla I, which can make them dangerous with guerilla bonus series.

 

[prloko]

As similar to the above, I’d like to see phalanx just get formation for free.

Would formation be in addition to the 100% defense vs chariots?

 

[ArchGhost]

my issue with Muskets is they aren't cost effective for offense (like every defensive unit) and need to be paired with either siege on offense, or act as defenders for other units (a la French Cuiraisser attacks and such) in which case -- I still find the extra cost of throwing in a few muskets more prohibitive than the cost of 0.8/Cuir to be in the stack anyway. I seriously only build non-UU muskets in cannon games (where they are perfect in Steel beelines as the companion unit!) or as drafts for MP in cities...

My take would be cheapen them or grant them more offensive promos especially CR, but native ones similar to the Oromo/Janissary (both of which I use much more than a stock Musket BECAUSE of this specifically) even if you had to reduce their base power because of the "ignores walls" bit. There'd be a lot more incentive to use them as more than city happiness or stack defenders then, but as it is, 80 hammers only gets you an inferior version of a Mace whose big plus is they aren't resource tied and have no hard counter-type units until what, Infantry? Even Maces are still neutral to other Maces and are almost as difficult to take down for even Cuirs as their supposed counter, the Pikeman.

 

[MassRiflemen]

Turn off tech trading. The musketman and its UU varianats now become strong units.
Some units/buildings only shine in no tech trading.

Nothing like a wall of Jans and trebs