Hammers, hammers, hammers...

[andre.human@gma]

Cam: On the level that I am playing this game, I dont really need to lightbulb to get to Liberalism first. And in any event, my teching is so disorganised that the "right" tech to bulb just about never comes up and when it does (I could bulb philosophy once... it was purely by accident and I have not been able to replicate it since. I once had a look at a list of techs and an explanation on what to research to get the right techs (refer PS post above) but it seemed so complicated and formulaic that somehow it diminishes the game for me a bit. So therefore, prophets are settled for me, from now on

 

[andre.human@gma]

PS: I'm sure he does... lol. What we are seeing are the dazzlingly successful ones. But I am sure he would be the first to admit that. Would'nt you, Obsolete ..?

 

[The Bowman]

When I said Dave and Obsolete were a little insane, I didn't mean to degrade them in any way. It was a little humour guesture.

The fact is, they both take things to the extreme. Both of them even take tiles and resources points meant for one thing and go either putting a cottage or workshop over it just to squeeze out a few more commerce or hammers, when clearly the rest of us are shaking our heads.

I don't even think the people at Firaxis even MEANT to allow people to do that. They just didn't think people would!

I never once told any of them what they were doing is 'wrong'. I just openly admit it is a little unorthodox, but there is nothing 'ilegal' with being different.

 

[andre.human@gma]

Bowman: Of course, I got your point. But hell, we need people like them around, Well I do anyway... I just dont have the imagination to do anything "unorthodox" without it being an unmitigated disaster!

God, this game is insanely addictive... A bit scary, actually. I have been playing for about three months (or so) and I am in danger of becoming a bit obsessive...

 

[The Bowman]

About the bulbing issue. You can always have a print-out of the order at your side, and keep glancing at it in certain situations when you THINK they may be a good possibility coming up.

Things have changed a lot since the days of Vanilla. I haven't used that CD in a while, but as I recollect, it wouldn't even tell you what the GPerson was going to bulb. You had to guess!

Now it tells you, that's a huge step for new players. The other ones had to do some memorization the hard way.

 

[cabert]

Everytime I get a GS, I check what I can lightbulb and its always some crap that I can get in 4 turns anyway lol. That's why I am happy to know that lightbulbing is not the be all and end all of teching. And settled priests give you hammers and commerce (I think)... I usually win the race to Lib anyway on Noble so no real need to lightbulb...

That's exactly what cam said and others mentionned in obsolete's threads.
By showing only the wonder race in his threads, he somehow let beginners think that this is a really good strategy and the "oh shiny" effect lasts longer.
If you don't plan ahead in high level games, it doesn't matter what "tricks" you use, you lose anyway.

Just to put another taste of "outside the box thinking", there are very convincing win(s?) using no mines at all in the SG forum .

 

[ParadigmShifter]

The most common reason for not being able to lightbulb philosophy is not getting meditation. I forget about that one a lot and have to trade for it as soon as a GS is born, because I went polytheism for the Great Lib instead.

All the other techs on the way to lib are important though (well, not paper but that is on the way to education), so you end up getting them anyway. You always need civil service for irrigation and macemen (if you don't go lightbulb mad and skip machinery).

It's better to aim for techs higher up the tree, and backfil others by trading, than getting all the early ones (even if they are cheap).

Even if you can always win the liberalism race it is worth doing it as early as possible so you can get cavalry or grenadiers and stomp some longbows, I think.

 

[The Bowman]

--so you can get cavalry or grenadiers and stomp some longbows, I think.

I do take offense to that.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

"But now I have cavalry, ho ho! Where should I put them?"

Feel free to reply "I studied on killin' you..." (Furious).

 

[The Bowman]

"So be it on your head."

 

[Snaaty]

I quite like the wonder thing from Obsolete, but I still think going for two early religions (Hindu & Jewish) beefs up this tactics QUITE a lot (later add Tao via lightbulbing). Build two temples in a food rich capital EARLY (=worker, warrior, temple, temple, wonders), run 2 priests while building some wonders and you end up with 5 or more GPp´s pre 1 AD (mainly GP´s form temples and GE´s from wonders), Every GP adds to your producition, every GE is another wonder and you just spirall up in producition and GPp like crazy...

 

[xanadux]

One thing to keep in mind is that Obsolete's methods are far easier if your capital has at least 9 surplus food from only 3 or 4 tiles (3F tiles don't cut it), and at least 4 hills. Micromanagement of city builds, tiles worked, and precise choices on the tech tree in the very early game also makes a big difference. Everything needs to come together smoothly to get the most out of this strategy. The first few times I tried it, I found I made a teching mistake, or a build order mistake, or developed the wrong tile with my worker, and just one of these seemingly small errors would set back completing a wonder quite a few turns.

 

[AlessioCerci]

Obsolete's tactics are obsolete in BTS anyway. Cavalry/grenadier rush is nerfed. And you'll likely be attacked if you have such terrible military in classical/medieval eras.

 

[fed1943]

I bet the true key of Obsolete's victories is not the Wonders spam, but his
Mastery of information and diplomacy.

Best regards,

 

[mice]

Obsolete's tactics are obsolete in BTS anyway. Cavalry/grenadier rush is nerfed. And you'll likely be attacked if you have such terrible military in classical/medieval eras.

The cavalry part is obsolete but the rest of the strat is better now with BTS.
State property gives +10% production. With Apostolic and state religion you get 2 hammers for each state religioun building (that's 6 hammers) Levees, earlier workshop hammer bonus... The prod giant concept is stronger in BTS.

 

[cabert]

The cavalry part is obsolete but the rest of the strat is better now with BTS.
State property gives +10% production. With Apostolic and state religion you get 2 hammers for each state religioun building (that's 6 hammers) Levees, earlier workshop hammer bonus... The prod giant concept is stronger in BTS.

untrue
If I understand things well (not sure, I still don't have BtS), it will be easier (like in every city) to get larger production. Even coastal cities can be production giants now.
So the relative value of hammers vs commerce is going down a bit IMHO.

 

[Roxlimn]

Having tried out "obsolete's strategy" for myself in a few games, I have to say that it doesn't need to involve a bad military or even a Cavalry rush. In fact, it's very evident to see what ABigCivFan means when he says that obsolete is needlessly shooting himself in the foot many times by refusing to lightbulb or cottage or even expand substantially in the first parts of the game.

Even when you're wonder spamming in the capital, it's easy at Noble or Prince to establish a solid empire supported primarily with your second or third cities. In fact, one of the best things about obsolete's build is that you can easily shift to building units and if you get the opening right, there's a comfortable space between ancient and medieval wonders to do some Maceman or Cata building, often a one turn apiece. The key thing is Industrious or Philosophy to boost the GP/Wonder feedback loop, and either Great Prophets or Great Engineers.

obsolete doesn't like GSs all that much because they don't strongly support the feedback loop and GAs are even worse because they don't even have the food the GM gets or the science the GS gets. Personally, I think that obsolete would have done better in one of his games to have sent the GM for a trade mission, rather than settle him.

If you're more selective about your wonders, you can even attack a neighbor with a Swordsman/Cata stack late in the Ancient period, though this probably won't work on higher settings or against Aggressive AI.

 

[The Bowman]

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The cavalry issue may be nerfed, but it seems Obsolete always grabbed the chemistry ---> steel path in order to grab the ironworks, which obviosuly seems to be some requirement. Sometimes he skipped the Oxford and instead plugged in the National Epic for the capital, but the ironworks has always been a priority, even though he may have dalyed getting it somewhat.

Since grenadiers and cannons are on those two techs, would it really be that hard to just use those instead? That's what most people do.

The problem I see with getting chemistry too fast, is it would quickly obsolete (npi) your nice shiny wonders

 

[ParadigmShifter]

You still get GP points from obsolete wonders though (in warlords anyway).

 

[Roxlimn]

I think that's the key. The wonders are useful for their lifetimes, but quite apart from that, they're used to pump out GPs by the bucketful, and that function apparently never ends. When one Wonder's function stops, it doesn't matter because the next one is already underway.